Login required to started new threads

Login required to post replies

Prev Next
The Obree way: a training manual for cyclists
Quote | Reply
I listened to it as an audiobook last week and I though I'd write a small review to share some interesting things from it.

Rather than a 'training manual' it is more of a collection of general principles. Quite a few chunks are often very mundane good common sense advice for very beginners that one can go over fast.

My take away from it:

Graeme considers two sessions to be key: the 'turbo session' and the 'glycogen ride'. The turbo session is a all out effort (say 20 or 40 minutes). It is done in almost religious isolation and requires a lot of mental energy (one rides at maximum effort for duration and pushes some more). He says it is crucial for monitoring improvement. Kinda doing the FTP test every week ... The glycogen ride is a ride with very little to no food eaten beforehand, none during, to deplete the glycogen stores. As soon as the ride is finished one eats straight away recovery food prepared beforehand.
He places serious emphasis on proper recovery and the discipline of not riding very easy if one goes on a recovery ride.

The breathing is one of the most interesting part. He makes the analogy that akin to swimming, the instinctive way of doing thing is not necessarily the most efficient : his Obree breathing technique is to normal breathing what front crawl is to doggy paddle (in his own words). First one should get used to breathing in through nose and mouth, with nostrils flared and the tongue touching up the palate. This is to moisten and warm the incoming air to make oxygen intake more efficient. My first though is : this is insane, if you think so too, hang on to your hats. The three beat Obree breathing technique he had to hide it from competitors and foreign federation for years and is revealed in the book. Rather than the normal hard breathing one is used to, which only replaces one third of the air in lungs (ok - I will need to do further research on this number - in god we trust, all other bring data), one takes a very deep breath (exhaling completely), then a half breath, then a quarter breath. I first though it was totally bonkers, maybe it is , but had a quick try during an effort makes and I find it interesting. The ideas is during a full on aerobic effort it is not possible to exhale completely every time, but over a complete cycle of three beat pattern breath, the total amount of oxygen absorbed is superior to just three standard hard breaths. I would guess he had that lab-tested and I am curious to see how the numbers stack up.

The pedaling technique I was expecting something as esoteric and exciting as the the breathing pattern. It is a lot simpler as in essence he recommends a very early 'kick' at the top of the stroke to maximize the length of the downwards force application. He says that most shoes requires a little tongue cutting to do this properly. This is far more interesting and makes more sense than the usual moronic 'pulling up on the up stroke' advice one reads on many places.

Psychology (two chapters) is also interesting as it provides a very different advice from the Steve Peters school that is now very ubiquitous due to its successes (if you are not familiar I wholeheartedly recommend you the chimp paradox). In Peters language Graeme gives control to 'the chimp' on purpose rather than the human, in the sense that one must be entirely committed to (at the extreme) die on the bike rather than let go. It is an interesting part and I'll listen to it again.

I enjoyed listening to the book and I would recommend if you like reading ideas from outside the box. Just for the novel bits of his techniques, I would rate the book seven out of ten.
Quote Reply
Re: The Obree way: a training manual for cyclists [howlingmadbenji] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
oh boy
Quote Reply
Re: The Obree way: a training manual for cyclists [howlingmadbenji] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Yup, many of Obree's ideas were "outside the box". I might try a couple, but I have learned from past failures that a couple of those won't work for me.
Quote Reply
Re: The Obree way: a training manual for cyclists [grumpier.mike] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
grumpier.mike wrote:
Yup, many of Obree's ideas were "outside the box". I might try a couple, but I have learned from past failures that a couple of those won't work for me.

His comments about power meters are contraversial.
Quote Reply
Re: The Obree way: a training manual for cyclists [Trev] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
They made a bit more sense at the time. He goes into great detail in the book about how he sets up a trainer to be a decent power meter (it isn't easy!)

It may have been a more reliable setup than some of the power meters available to him at the time.


Trev wrote:
grumpier.mike wrote:
Yup, many of Obree's ideas were "outside the box". I might try a couple, but I have learned from past failures that a couple of those won't work for me.

His comments about power meters are contraversial.



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
Quote Reply
Re: The Obree way: a training manual for cyclists [howlingmadbenji] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
If you take a step back, his training approach isn't all that unusual. Ride a lot, go really hard about twice a week.

The brits are big on trainer workouts in general. There is a lot of value in them I think, if you can stand it. But if you have good outdoor venues for intervals that can be just as good. Some places it is hard to find such venues, others it isn't.



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
Quote Reply
Re: The Obree way: a training manual for cyclists [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=K3DwhbUGUIg


Watching from 3'30" should be compulsory viewing for every gear-obsessed triathlete.

Obree is an utter legend.

-------------------------------
´Get the most aero and light bike you can get. With the aero advantage you can be saving minutes and with the weight advantage you can be saving seconds. In a race against the clock both matter.´

BMANX
Quote Reply
Re: The Obree way: a training manual for cyclists [howlingmadbenji] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Good review and some interesting stuff there. I'll put it on my 'to buy' list

http://www.thedeludedcyclist.wordpress.com
Quote Reply
Re: The Obree way: a training manual for cyclists [howlingmadbenji] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
The breathing part is totally bonkers. Diffusion of co2 & o2 between alveolar air and alveolar capillaries is instant and complete (ie blood is saturated with o2 and empty of co2). During normal, easy breathing a third of the air is not exchanged, if the dead space is 150ml and the breath is 450 ml (normal and common). However, during periods of heavy breathing the dead space stays more or less the same (might decrease from forced exhalation) but the inhaled air increases XXXX. In fact, during very heavy breathing one can inhale 150 litres of air per minute, thus 30 litres of oxygen per minute. Even if the dead space would be 66% of the ventilated air that would mean about 10 litres per minute of oxygen inhaled. Show me someone with a vo2max of 10 litres per minute (142ml/kg/minute for a 70kg athlete)! Simply put, respiration does not limit an athlete.

At altitude things change though. The reduced partial pressure of oxygen becomes an issue and performance suffers.

Endurance coach | Physiotherapist (primary care) | Bikefitter | Swede
Quote Reply
Re: The Obree way: a training manual for cyclists [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
He goes at length about the turbo setup - the goal is to have a setup that will give precise numbers from one sessIon to the next to monitor improvement.That's obviously less of an issue every year with the widesprrad availability of

His point about a solid effort versus intervals is a mental one: going for a full on effort and pushing beyond your previous best Is an affirmation of your commitment to improve. This session also require proper mental preparation. Personally I love my hard intervals sessions - i's already plenty of training stimulus and trying to better myself in a (say) weekly FTP test would be very grueling indeed.
Quote Reply
Re: The Obree way: a training manual for cyclists [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
jackmott wrote:
They made a bit more sense at the time. He goes into great detail in the book about how he sets up a trainer to be a decent power meter (it isn't easy!)

It may have been a more reliable setup than some of the power meters available to him at the time.


Trev wrote:
grumpier.mike wrote:
Yup, many of Obree's ideas were "outside the box". I might try a couple, but I have learned from past failures that a couple of those won't work for me.

His comments about power meters are contraversial.

Yes I agree with your comments here. He goes into great detail in the book about how to set up the turbo. He repeats about how to measure to an accuracy of +/- 0.5% accuracy.

He also is very disparaging of analysing data from outdoor rides.

I don't agree with him. I don't understand his objection to the use of a power meter.

Possibly his own experience was there was not the accuracy he needed / wanted?

Perhaps it was the cost? Or the time and hassle required to ensure the accuracy he perceived as necessary?

I admire the man and I can understand his point of view, but I can't agree with his objection to the use of power meters.

Perhaps his objection isn't so much to power meters but how people use them?

After all if you follow his instructions in the book you have a reliable power meter by proxy, but his system requires you use the same turbo with the same set up always, you can't compare performance in another environment or on a different turbo.

Love the bloke but can't agree with him about everything.
Quote Reply
Re: The Obree way: a training manual for cyclists [mortysct] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Thanks a lot for your input mortysct - That's the sort of quant input I was looking for.
Quote Reply
Re: The Obree way: a training manual for cyclists [mortysct] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
mortysct wrote:
The breathing part is totally bonkers. Diffusion of co2 & o2 between alveolar air and alveolar capillaries is instant and complete (ie blood is saturated with o2 and empty of co2). During normal, easy breathing a third of the air is not exchanged, if the dead space is 150ml and the breath is 450 ml (normal and common). However, during periods of heavy breathing the dead space stays more or less the same (might decrease from forced exhalation) but the inhaled air increases XXXX. In fact, during very heavy breathing one can inhale 150 litres of air per minute, thus 30 litres of oxygen per minute. Even if the dead space would be 66% of the ventilated air that would mean about 10 litres per minute of oxygen inhaled. Show me someone with a vo2max of 10 litres per minute (142ml/kg/minute for a 70kg athlete)! Simply put, respiration does not limit an athlete.

At altitude things change though. The reduced partial pressure of oxygen becomes an issue and performance suffers.

I'm not arguing with you here. But I have consistently suffered form breathing difficulties. Might a cyclist in an extreme aerodynamic position be riding in a position which restricts breathing thus requiring some sort of breathing technique.

As an example, rowing on a Concept2 I have to breathe differently to the way Imwould running or cycling.
Quote Reply
Re: The Obree way: a training manual for cyclists [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
jackmott wrote:
If you take a step back, his training approach isn't all that unusual. Ride a lot, go really hard about twice a week.

The brits are big on trainer workouts in general. There is a lot of value in them I think, if you can stand it. But if you have good outdoor venues for intervals that can be just as good. Some places it is hard to find such venues, others it isn't.

Obree must be remembered for the fact he was not only an hour record holder but a pursuit world champion.

He invented not one superior position which was banned by the UCI and the UK authorities but two positions. The Obree Tuck and the Superman position.

Most cruelly, the UCI, banned one of his positions overnight, nothing in writing, just rules changed overnight. Obree was forced off the track by a man in a blazer.

But the point of interest here is how could a man who does not use a power meter and didn't go in a wind tunnel break the hour record and win the world pursuit? How could a man without a power meter and without the use of a wind tunnel create not just one position which was so effective it had to be banned but invent two?

This may explain why Obree does not see the point of power meters, he didn't need them.

I find it amusing that Obree's ideas about breathing, or trainers, or how to train are disparaged.

Obree was ahead of the science.. The scientists, ( Keen & Boardman) for whom, I have the greatest respect, may have ultimately gone faster than Obree. But Obree invented the positions they copied.

Do not assume Onree's ideas are just out of the box, it is very possible his training ideas are as advanced as his aerodynamic ideas.
Quote Reply
Re: The Obree way: a training manual for cyclists [mortysct] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
mortysct wrote:
The breathing part is totally bonkers. Diffusion of co2 & o2 between alveolar air and alveolar capillaries is instant and complete (ie blood is saturated with o2 and empty of co2). During normal, easy breathing a third of the air is not exchanged, if the dead space is 150ml and the breath is 450 ml (normal and common). However, during periods of heavy breathing the dead space stays more or less the same (might decrease from forced exhalation) but the inhaled air increases XXXX. In fact, during very heavy breathing one can inhale 150 litres of air per minute, thus 30 litres of oxygen per minute. Even if the dead space would be 66% of the ventilated air that would mean about 10 litres per minute of oxygen inhaled. Show me someone with a vo2max of 10 litres per minute (142ml/kg/minute for a 70kg athlete)! Simply put, respiration does not limit an athlete.

At altitude things change though. The reduced partial pressure of oxygen becomes an issue and performance suffers.


Why then is my breathing the limiting factor in any event over about 60 second duration?

I get puffed out.

If I do a 60 minute test running cyclimg or rowing my limiting factor is I'm puffed out.

Not questioning your post just asking you to explain why I feel puffed out, or I feel the limiting factor is my breathing. not saying it is, but my limiting factor is invariably I feel that I can't breath enough.
Last edited by: Trev: Feb 15, 15 10:39
Quote Reply
Re: The Obree way: a training manual for cyclists [Trev] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Unless you have a diagnosed breathing condition (asthma, copd, etc) the physical mechanics of breathing is not your limiting factor. Aerobic fitness is limiting you and making you breath harder to maintain the energy demands for a given intensity.
Quote Reply
Re: The Obree way: a training manual for cyclists [Jctriguy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Jctriguy wrote:
Unless you have a diagnosed breathing condition (asthma, copd, etc) the physical mechanics of breathing is not your limiting factor. Aerobic fitness is limiting you and making you breath harder to maintain the energy demands for a given intensity.
Imdont dispute that is what the science says, or that ' aerobic fitness ' is what limits my performance.

What I'm saying is that the result, for me, is not muscles hurting or burning, or even feeling tired, I get puffed out .

Imdont care what the science says, I have to slow down cycling, rowing or running , because I run out of breath.

That is what hurts. I can cope with localised pain in muscles, I can't cope with being out of breath.

I don't dispute what causes this feeling. But it is this feeling of gasping for more air which slows me down.

So, when the chips are down, my limiting factor isn't my heart rate, ( I can't feel it ), it isn't any localised muscle discomfort or pain, it is being at my limit of breathing, gasping, puffed out, to the point of having to slow down, reduce power, to get control of my breathing.

This is no doubt caused by lack of metabolic fitness, or to be more precise, I'm pushing myself beyond my metabolic fitness, but the result and what I can actually feel, which is what matters to me, is I can't breathe enough to maintain the power I'm trying to sustain.

So my point about Obree is if he has found a way which enables him to sustain power when he is at the limit of his metabolic fitness and is able to breath in a manner which enables him to maintain a power longer, he may have a point.

It may be he isn't breathing or processing more 02, but if his breathing method enables him to sustain a given power longer, who gives a fuck what the men in white coats say?
Quote Reply
Re: The Obree way: a training manual for cyclists [Trev] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Right, so you don't understand the science at all. If you really think a different method of breathing is going to increase the amount of oxygen getting to your muscles, I have some land to sell you in Florida. Nice talking to you...
Last edited by: Jctriguy: Feb 15, 15 13:51
Quote Reply
Re: The Obree way: a training manual for cyclists [Trev] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Trev wrote:

Obree must be remembered for the fact he was not only an hour record holder but a pursuit world champion.

This.
And he did it with virtually no funding or support. His 52.7 for the hour will fall this year but it's hands down one of rawest things ever done on a bike by anyone.
Quote Reply
Re: The Obree way: a training manual for cyclists [Trev] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Your limitation isn't the volume of oxygen you are breathing in and CO2 out, it's the ability to absorb and distribute it. The feeling of being out of breath is related to blood chemistry.


TrainingBible Coaching
http://www.trainingbible.com
Quote Reply
Re: The Obree way: a training manual for cyclists [motoguy128] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
motoguy128 wrote:
Your limitation isn't the volume of oxygen you are breathing in and CO2 out, it's the ability to absorb and distribute it. The feeling of being out of breath is related to blood chemistry.

Yes, I don't dispute this. But I'm explaining that the feeling that induces is limiting. If you find a way of suppressing that discomfort you might be able to sustain a given power longer or sustain a higher power.

For what it is worth Obree's breathing method does not work for me. But he thinks it works for him. It might work for others it might not.
Quote Reply
Re: The Obree way: a training manual for cyclists [Jctriguy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Jctriguy wrote:
Right, so you don't understand the science at all. If you really think a different method of breathing is going to increase the amount of oxygen getting to your muscles, I have some land to sell you in Florida. Nice talking to you...


You should read my post and try to understand it.

I did not say that a different method of breathing is going to increase the amount of oxygen getting to my muscles.

I don't dispute what causes breathlessness. I'm not disputing the science, I'm not in disagreement with you as to the cause of breathlessness.

I'm just explaining that what I feel isn't burning muscles or muscular discomfort.

I don't feel a lack of oxygen getting to my muscles, I don't feel lack of metabolic fitness. I don't feel my heart rate.

I feel breathlessness, and it is this feeling that causes me to slow down.

I'm explaining what I feel and what slows me down. I'm not disputing the science or the cause of what makes me feel breathless and gasping for air.
Last edited by: Trev: Feb 15, 15 16:11
Quote Reply
Re: The Obree way: a training manual for cyclists [motoguy128] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Do you think it would be possible to retrofit the human body with an air sac system like birds'?
Quote Reply
Re: The Obree way: a training manual for cyclists [Trev] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Trev wrote:
mortysct wrote:
The breathing part is totally bonkers. Diffusion of co2 & o2 between alveolar air and alveolar capillaries is instant and complete (ie blood is saturated with o2 and empty of co2). During normal, easy breathing a third of the air is not exchanged, if the dead space is 150ml and the breath is 450 ml (normal and common). However, during periods of heavy breathing the dead space stays more or less the same (might decrease from forced exhalation) but the inhaled air increases XXXX. In fact, during very heavy breathing one can inhale 150 litres of air per minute, thus 30 litres of oxygen per minute. Even if the dead space would be 66% of the ventilated air that would mean about 10 litres per minute of oxygen inhaled. Show me someone with a vo2max of 10 litres per minute (142ml/kg/minute for a 70kg athlete)! Simply put, respiration does not limit an athlete.

At altitude things change though. The reduced partial pressure of oxygen becomes an issue and performance suffers.



I'm not arguing with you here. But I have consistently suffered form breathing difficulties. Might a cyclist in an extreme aerodynamic position be riding in a position which restricts breathing thus requiring some sort of breathing technique.

As an example, rowing on a Concept2 I have to breathe differently to the way Imwould running or cycling.

Right, but on erg, there is one long powerful stroke and a recovery, requiring different breathing than the continuous output of cycling. It's like saying you'd breathe differently doing lunges.

_____________________________________
What are you people, on dope?

—Mr. Hand
Quote Reply
Re: The Obree way: a training manual for cyclists [scofflaw] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
scofflaw wrote:
Trev wrote:
mortysct wrote:
The breathing part is totally bonkers. Diffusion of co2 & o2 between alveolar air and alveolar capillaries is instant and complete (ie blood is saturated with o2 and empty of co2). During normal, easy breathing a third of the air is not exchanged, if the dead space is 150ml and the breath is 450 ml (normal and common). However, during periods of heavy breathing the dead space stays more or less the same (might decrease from forced exhalation) but the inhaled air increases XXXX. In fact, during very heavy breathing one can inhale 150 litres of air per minute, thus 30 litres of oxygen per minute. Even if the dead space would be 66% of the ventilated air that would mean about 10 litres per minute of oxygen inhaled. Show me someone with a vo2max of 10 litres per minute (142ml/kg/minute for a 70kg athlete)! Simply put, respiration does not limit an athlete.

At altitude things change though. The reduced partial pressure of oxygen becomes an issue and performance suffers.




I'm not arguing with you here. But I have consistently suffered form breathing difficulties. Might a cyclist in an extreme aerodynamic position be riding in a position which restricts breathing thus requiring some sort of breathing technique.

As an example, rowing on a Concept2 I have to breathe differently to the way Imwould running or cycling.


Right, but on erg, there is one long powerful stroke and a recovery, requiring different breathing than the continuous output of cycling. It's like saying you'd breathe differently doing lunges.


Yes, but I suffer breathing difficulties cycling as well, particularly in a low TT position, although to a lesser extent than erging.

I put out far more power cycling, but still breathing is my limiting factor.

I know others don't find this but I do.

Obree rode in an extreme tuck or a superman position. These positions may have caused him difficulty breathing. This might be why he developed his breathing technique.

You would have to ask him, I'm only accepting he may have found he was able to sustain more power using his breathing technique.

Note I use the word 'may'.
Last edited by: Trev: Feb 15, 15 16:56
Quote Reply

Prev Next