Do you mean like "He/She is HOT!" ;-)

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

"Do you mean like "He/She is HOT!" ;-)"

no, i'm talking about people you do not intend to (or have an interest in) dating!

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I'd be willing to bet that when most people make those observations about he/she/it, they don't really intend to date/pursue/purchase either...

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

I don't understand the fixation on price when judging the P5X.

Both the Felt IA FRD (which was the only trim level available for at least a full year I believe) and the P5 sold for about 15k when they first launched. This price is not unheard of. Bikes from less proven/regarded brands sell for the same, but no one is balking at them in quite the same way.

Maybe it's the styling that people are objecting to? There wasn't nearly as much noise about pricing when the IA and P5 were announced, but they are also more classically styled. It seems the majority thinks the P5X is ugly and therefore not worthy of such a price tag. That doesn't really make sense. Cervelo and Diamondback made the ultimate tri bike – like you stated – and in Cervelo's case, managed to make it test 3w faster. 3w is not much, but it is still faster. So they made a bike that can do it all, offers everything everyone has ever wanted in a tri bike, made it faster than the previous "gold standard" and actually aren't charging more for it than they have with their previous top of the line halo models.

Personally, I think it's hideous and as such would never buy it. But that doesn't really matter for this discussion.

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Group Eleven – Websites for Athletes / mikael.racing / @mstaer

I agree that COMFORT is the most critical of all, at the end of the day (particularly long bike rides)

I'm not talking armchair comfort, but there is some of that. I'm talking mainly comfort such that you can hold the most areo position YOU can hold for the whole race. No use being wicked aero for 100km then sitting up for 80km because your back or neck is stuffed (like a buddy of mine used to ride). And even THAT isn't that important unless it's a TT or your going for the bike prime. You have to be comfortable enough that you can run well, right off the bike. Back in the day I had a position I could ride all day, but coming off the bike I could barely hobble for 4-5km, losing tons of time overall. Finally I dialled in a position that was more comfortable, but gave a slower bike split. However, I was able to run a lot faster off the bike so overall, it got me to the finishers medal quicker and THAT is what triathlon is all about really.

Remember tho that I'm a crap cyclist and even worse runner, but the concept remains valid I believe. I'm reminded of the example of Bjorn at IMNZ when his wicked fast position got him to T2 19 minutes faster than Cam Brown, but he ran (relative to good running triathletes) so badly, that Cam passed him by about the 30km mark from memory. Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge fan of Bjorns and his dedication to fast bike splits etc, but even if he never had the pure running speed required, I still believe his fast bike splits were not the fastest way for him to get to the finish line. Giving up 5-10 minutes on the bike would probably have got him to the finish line 10-15 minutes faster overall.

Of course I don't think his extremely low cadence helped him either. A faster bike cadence would likely have increased his run cadence as well, saving his legs better and allowing him to run (and finish) slightly faster. But, as he's retired now, we will never know.

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TriDork

"Happiness is a myth. All you can hope for is to get laid once in a while, drunk once in a while and to eat chocolate every day"

It's pretty easy to take the wheels off the P5-X

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

"It seems the majority thinks the P5X is ugly and therefore not worthy of such a price tag."

i don't think that's true. i'm talking to hundreds of people at our road shows, all across the country, and felt, QR, parlee, cervelo and others have been at these shows. i have not heard once that folks don't like the looks of this bike. i'll perform around 100 fits a year, maybe 150, and then talk to people about the bikes that would work for them. if i bring up the P5X, i've never heard anything negative about the look of this bike. (a size run of these bikes for test rides is at most road shows, and will be at the remaining 3 road shows.)

what i think is that people who feel an overwhelming need to have their voices heard think the P5X is ugly, and the great majority of people stay silent because they don't want to be ridiculed by those who disagree with them.

now, you don't have to be a loud mouthed blowhard to dislike the look of this bike. there's no problem disliking this bike. i'm just saying that what i see out in america is very different than what i read on internet forums about this bike.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

"Well I assure you I have high opinions of many women I don't intend to date, religions I don't intend to join and bikes and other products I don't intend to buy, including several in the shootout!! :)"

which you don't share with us! ;-)

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

And yet..one of your largest (if not THE largest) threads ever was the "Hottie" thread, right? :-/

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

I meant the majority here, criticizing the bike.

But it's true what you say, in the real world, people seem to like it. I went to the official Toronto launch event and everyone there was gaga for it. It has a Lamborghini Batmobile look to it that seems to excite.

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Group Eleven – Websites for Athletes / mikael.racing / @mstaer

I think this whole testing and the forum follow up has been tremendous, and I'm glad I supported the efforts, because it might help me determine my next tri bike.

I think it will be interesting to read about the Kona bike count in 2017, even better would be a Kona bike count that includes the supermodel bikes: number of P5s, P5xs, Andeans, etc. It's fun to talk about these super bikes, but it will be interesting to see what the KQ athlete or the On the bubble KQ athlete does with their pocket book in 2017. Personally, unless you have really deep pockets or want the latest flash any BOP or MOP athlete should train more, work on their position, and potentially go to a wind tunnel, along with buying a P2 (or equivalent) and call it a day, as those are super aero, light, and brake exceptionally well.

If you are a FOP KQ type athlete looking for every second, this shootout could drive a lot of sales, if there is a big difference between the old Felt versus the new superbikes. If there is no difference, it might be a bust for these super bikes and reconfirming bikes are near peak aero or have been for some time, with further refinements coming from positioning, clothing, helmets, shoes, etc. As others have mentioned, I'd love to see how the Canyon would fare against these worthy competitors.

Thanks to everyone involved!

I've replied to you before on this and I'm going to say it again.

They have NOT been transparent with us (the customer). Maybe to you they have, but we don't have the contacts or access that you do. All the data that has been released only begs more questions. They have yet to answer those questions. How is that transparent?

We keep hearing to wait for the white papers.... We are waiting..... Until then, I'm doing my best to reserve my judgement but the more time ticks away, the more suspect I become. And if you say it takes a while to write a white paper, I seem to remember trek releasing their white paper the same day the bike was released.

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blog

Wow...

/r/The_Donald would like its argument back.

The bias is at least as large for the opposite in your example.

In face to face discussion, an individual is more inclined _not_ to be critical.

Now consider you, a well known and respected member of the cycling industry and community, is the receiver of the criticism, possibly while in attendance in a professional capacity. Whether or not you sell the product, more bias again.

Anyway, I am sincere in saying I am sorry that the relentless negativity online has made you feel this way but this was a very specious argument.

Having talked with several in the industry I suspect the white paper if it was released that day was prewritten, at least large swaths of it. They probably did more than 1 testing session prior to and had the numbers already. Then did the white paper testing session as final confirmation.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

We agree again. I liked how it looked under me in the video and pretty much like how it looked otherwise too except for the rear derailleur calipers (but I ignore that because I know that's a temporary thing).

But I don't think people should be blamed for thinking it's ugly not having seen it, because I thought it was ugly before I had the thing in my possession. I think the way I set mine up made it look hawt.



Because I chose the size at the bottom of the stack envelope, you don't have that sort of unstable looked single pillar spacer with all that space, which I think makes the bike look kind of strange. It also looks pretty bad loaded up with all those round bottles. Every bike looks bad loaded up with three round bottles! But Cervelo continues to show us that bike in their marketing in the configuration in which it looks worse.

So no, I don't think it's just trendy to say it's ugly. I think it's actually ugly in the configuration its being shown to consumers, who can't really see how it's good functionally or aesthetically. I'm struggling with the disc brake thing in general -- especially where disc brakes are right now in the development cycle -- but I really do like the bike now and I'm surprised that I do.

A lot of people are talking crap about it because they just haven't seen it or don't have an imagination of how it will look and work for you after you get it all set up. That's my theory anyways. Oh, and because it's really really expensive.

"But I don't think people should be blamed for thinking it's ugly not having seen it"

i don't blame anybody! i think everyone has the right both to have an opinion and to voice the opinion. i'm simply saying that when i go to a road show, and i fit somebody, and derive bike solutions for him or her, and we walk around the shop and talk about bikes, the folks i talk to are never reticent to share their opinions about how a bike strikes them. nobody is shy about saying, "i just don't like the way that bike looks."

in my experience, people online are more likely to comment negatively on something they don't like, even if they have no intention of buying it (and wouldn't be in the market even if they loved the looks of the product).

in my experience - when i'm talking to people in shops - it's, "wow, i love the orange on the new QR PR6," or, "I liked cervelo's P2 colorway last year more than this year," and i just don't find the opinions in person that i find online.

this is even more the case with the andean. everybody in person loves the andean.

but that doesn't mean there's anything wrong with voicing a negative opinion online. keep 'em coming!

"Oh, and because it's really really expensive."

i only partway buy that argument. does this bike offend you, because of its price? or this one? or the "race build", which is $500 less than the similarly equipped P5X but would you rather have the HED wheels on the P5X or the profile design wheels?

the "problem" with the P5X is that cervelo did what a lot of bike companies do, which is to build a new halo bike in one build (or two), they're premium bikes, and they cost a lot of money because they are premium builds.

pick your favorite superbike. put di2 dura ace on it throughout. put an enve aerobar on it. put enve wheels on it. get as close as you can on the rest of the spec. tell me what you find a bike like that costs.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I'm really hoping we see more bikes with front ends as easy to adjust as the P5x. I've read Trevor's thoughts on how he has been able to dial in his position during training rides with the same ease we now made seatpost adjustments. Any opinions on this aspect of the bike?

I know I've read elsewhere that you prefer round bottles, and this is what the Cervelo folks found, too, when visually surveying race participant bikes at ironman events. But, I'm still don't want to give up on integrated hydration, such as the Shiv bladder. Any thoughts on the Ventum integrated reservoir? While there's the common belief that bta bottles are more aero than no bottle, I have a hard time believing that bottle hand offs with volunteers and removing and replacing the bottle in a bta set up is more aero than having a hands-free cambelbak hose to drink from...

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wovebike.com | Wove on instagram

You won't hear anyone talk bad about Dimond or the Felt. People are just mad because it's a Cervelo. They can't seem to comprehend that large drag reductions just don't happen anymore and storage is the new focus. They will eventually come around but it will take time.

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

Of course it was pre-written. They finalized the design what..... 6-12 months before the bike was released? And they did the the final testing around that same time probably. Note that the bike was available to order the same day it was released. So again this poses the question; how and why can trek release a white paper the same day the bike is released and cervelo can't even deliver one 6 months after their bike is released?

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blog

Wow, sounds like you are not at a good space right now.

This wind tunnel test and the thread is really aggravating you.

Just take a deep breath and relax.

It's a not 'life or death' situation, isn't it?

In the stone age, bikes were unreliable and uncomfortable and heavy and had a single gear. Over time, they became more reliable, more comfortable, more lightweight, and gained gears. Those gears even migrated to the handlebars. Eventually they got disc brakes. All of these things were directly perceptible to the rider, or measurable with household equipment.

However the introduction of carbon fibre changed the game and allowed vast variation of shapes within the ‘two wheels and a saddle’ theme. And as a result bicycle development has started to move into aerodynamics.

The difference here is that the outputs here are not directly measurable – not by any person who does not have access to a million dollar tunnel and several trained staff. So we’re in an environment in which there is a high degree of trust, and that trust is exchanged for money. In the past I think many of us would have given that trust automatically and assumed that because a brand took their equipment to a tunnel and then published a claim that the claim was justified. However we’ve seen lack of clarity and obfuscation (testing against unnamed ‘mystery bikes’, for example), and as the easy aero gains disappear those obfuscations seem to be getting worse.

Because we have no way of measuring their claims for ourselves the industry owes it to us to present their data and methods with a maximum of clarity. And events like this one become even more important to those of us who are exchanging our hard earned money for their outsize claims (in order to pursue a frivolous recreation).

I’d like for this to become a yearly event, actually.

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'It never gets easier, you just get crazier.'

I actually think if a manufacturer would just advertise on Slowtwitch with the statement:

'Buy our bike because you like the price, looks and specs of it"

he wouldn't do too bad among Slowtwitchers.

They would never admit that, though (like the rest of consumer sheep).

Ummm...Are we reading the same forum?

what?

the wind tunnel test was great! i'm not aggravated in the least. i think i'm in a pretty good space (thank you for asking, and for your concern!). i guess i'll have to be a little more careful about making my observations public, lest i touch a nerve!

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman