This tweet from Bike Snob says it all in my opinion. Well, except for wheel rub liability

"If only there were some sort of lightweight, effective brake with no cutting risk (real or perceived) that allowed for quick wheelchanges..."

Love it. It's like your favorite joke but actually funny ;)

"it sounds like execution matters in the use of disc brakes"

this is what constitutes evidence to you? a guy quoting what another guy said about riding a bike around the parking lot? (which i take to mean, just from what was written, it's the first ride after having first hiked his leg over the bike.)

yes, you're right. disc brake bikes that aren't set up well, aren't assembled well (etc) don't perform well. i have 7 or 8 bikes that have disc brakes on them, road, gravel, tri, MTB. they all are assembled and adjusted properly. if they weren't properly assembled and adjusted then, yes, as you said, they would not be bikes with properly-performing brakes.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I think it's the transparency of this model that folks here are appreciating. I think the expectation of complete transparency from companies is a bit unrealistic. It's interesting to me that it centers around bikes. Are we getting testing and design details for the Nike Vapor Fly shoes? I expect a bit of secrecy...it's business.

"I think it's the transparency of this model that folks here are appreciating. I think the expectation of complete transparency from companies is a bit unrealistic."

i would be shocked if you're going to get any more transparency from this process than you get from a similar process executed by a bike manufacturer. i'm not criticizing the test that went on yesterday, just, what do you think you're getting here that you didn't or don't get from testing by cervelo, diamondback, specialized, etc?

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

No...it's not what I'm taking as evidence. I know from my own experience, AND my own stable of disc and rim brake equipped bikes that "execution matters".

There are good and crappy examples of each. But, BryanD was trying to imply that the brakes were bad because they weren't hydraulic...which, to be honest, is another copout. I've got cable actuated brake setups that outperform hydraulic actuated setups. Again, setup matters.

Besides, this conversation isn't about what you and I do in our brake setups (neither of which tolerate poor setups, apparently). Instead, my comments are about what the cycling population in general does. My first thought when hearing that people thought that ANY disc setup is better than a rim setup was "Man, you guys must be riding some crappy rim setups..."

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

That's why he's a comedic writer and I'm an engineer :-P

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

"execution matters"

i don't disagree at all.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

You're also the grandson of a dentist. What would gramps say if he knew you ride alloy tracks from a manufacturer that isn't Zipp, Enve, Lightweight, Dash, or Knight? Shameful.

I'm still allowed to make this joke as kileyay, I hope?

Did Slowman just do a mic drop?

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Ha! If you only knew my grandpa...

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

I guess that's what folks don't, or didn't know; what it looks like when manufacturers run through testing. This can now be a chance for you and others involved in the testing to lead the discussion with data in your back pocket to point to.

Personally, I'm a bit more trusting of manufacturer claims and I've always assumed that the super bikes are very comparable. I'll go with what I can 1. Can afford, 2. Get most comfortable on, and 3. Looks good.

Sucks that you bought those Enve 7.8s. The good news is they are going to look sick on your Exploro?

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/kj

http://kjmcawesome.tumblr.com/

"i guess that's what folks don't, or didn't know; what it looks like when manufacturers run through testing."

we get invited to the wind tunnel all the time. i'll bet there's a dozen or 15 stories on slowtwitch on wind tunnel tests we've attended. last fall we were invited to the diamondback tunnel for andean testing. free rein to look at anything we wanted, take pics of anything we wanted.

if it's that you haven't seen it with sufficient clarity before then that's either our fault because we didn't describe it well in the past, or we did and you just weren't focused on it at that time.

here's the big revelation! (at least this will be my guess.) the shocking truth! bike companies don't lie. or obfuscate. or set up a test in order to deceive you or take advantage of their competitors. i have on a number of occasions been asked to help bike companies choose the bike sizes and configs of their rival companies in order to make certain the comparative test is straight up and fair.

did you get raw data yesterday? did i miss that? anybody get raw data? dan kennison, jimmy searr, herbert, bryand, got the raw data? want to share it? no?

and that's fine. i can understand why nobody has that data yet. 100 percent "transparency" isn't illustrative, rather it can be obfuscatory. just, it's unfair to say that bike companies are less transparent. this was a transparent test yesterday. but it was no different in its level of transparency (from my perspective) than most other tests.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I have a ton of pictures I need to post here. Let me get clearance from the team and I will.

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

Disc brake pads need to first 'settle in' to work ideally...this can take a couple rides....so this info is meaningless.

On the other hand: Rim brakes normally work well right out of the box.

I'm with you, but I need the XL and not the XS, the stack isn't even close for me

We can get the raw data & we are getting the raw data. That's not the problem, at all. A2 will give it to us. The problem is the sheer size of the raw data and everything that's on it.

The data we see in the tunnel was > 400 lines long and 10-12 columns wide on and excel spreadsheet (I forgot even though I looked at that screen for >10h between yesterday and today's testing). The raw data is 3-4x that size.

I had to put all the testing we've done in the last 2 years on a thumb drive this afternoon. Took over an hour to transfer. That's the reason why no one got raw data yesterday. Because no one wanted to wait around for it to download. Much quicker to download the data sheets.

Jimmy & Dan had early flights. Geoff has to get there before we do to get the tunnel prepped & stay after to shut it down pretty sure he doesn't want to be there longer, Kiley was beat from all the testing, BryanD could hardly keep his eyes open, Heath and I just wanted beer and to put our feet up.

The other thing about the raw data is that unless your a math nerd (which I'm not) you'll only understand about 30-40% of it...at best. I do believe the discussion ended with us trying to find a nerd (and I say this in the best manner possible) who wants to look over all this data (possible masters thesis/PhD anyone) and then report back to us.

I'm pretty sure even though I made an A in stats in college, the math required for this analysis is well above my ability. IOW to quote some A list B schools "we've never seen GMAT score that high with such a low quantitative score." Which is code for "you're not getting into this school buddy." any Bschools want to accept me without a GMAT score :-)

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

I nominate RChung :-)

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Hard to argue with that if he's willing to take on the task.

It does fit and test many types of vehicles (tesla, various types of race cars, bob sleds, skeletons, bikes, etc), but only goes up to 85mph. It's the lower cost, less expensive brother to Aerodyn.

Further reading comp of your first post (that I replied to anyway) reveals you were referring more to the vehicles/objects tested IN the tunnel, not so much the tunnels themselves. But, like I said, A2 tests a bit of everything. Aerodyn ONLY tests sprint cup cars, because that's the only group that can afford the time. I think Aerodyn has like...5 customers. (I'm being half serious). The other big team tunnel in Mooresville is Wind Shear, but I know much less about that one.

Aero helmets are an easy sell to your "average" consumer. Clothing? Not really. Wheels? Yes, but for the wrong reasons. Position? Sometimes the average consumer seems to "get it" when it comes to fit first and equipment second, but that's rare.

Here on Slowtwitch though? The dollar spent / watt gained ratio is otherwordly.

We can't give you the raw data because the methods we used were proprietary and not for attribution. But we are happy to release A LOT of data and far more data than any manufacturer has ever

I think you're underestimating the level of transparency we will bring and greatly exaggerating the level of transparency these firms provide, which is very very little

Where is that P5-X white paper again? Andean white paper? Oh right -- they don't exist.

Kiley...stop with the jabs at the industry. I think you are going to find out how hard it is to write a tech paper. It takes quite a while and is not an easy task.

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

Luckily I smacked the GMAT quant. So I can be a great go between for all

Like I already told you: I deal with the god damn customers so the engineers don't have to. I have people skills; I am good at dealing with people. Can't you understand that? What the hell is wrong with you people?

I see what you did there...

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/