Here's my untrained, eyeball guess:

1. P5
2. Premier Tactical
3. Ventum
4. Felt B
5. P5-X
6. Andean

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Madison photographer Timothy Hughes | Instagram

Welcome back!

This could be a dumb question but are you planning on testing the bikes with the hydration systems? Will you also make the data available to all or just those who donated? I feel bad because I didn't donate but poor college student

just FYI, i may not let you post this on the forum, or anywhere on slowtwitch.

you're of course free to post this wherever you want outside of slowtwitch. but i have no confidence whatsoever that you have the knowledge and capacity to produce a proper, informed, fair, accurate test.

i've been attending wind tunnel tests since 1990, and have had my own bikes in the tunnel (when i was a manufacturer), and have spent a lot of time scrutinizing and questioning those who have run wind tunnel tests often and over long periods of time, and i don't think i would be anywhere near qualified to run a test.

accordingly, if i'm not satisfied that you produced a proper test, no way is it going to show on this site.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

This is not a small undertaking. Glad you are doing it though.

Think this might have been covered elsewhere - who all will be present for the test other than Heath, Brian, Geoff and yourself? I know too many cooks in the kitchen and all.

I think that "policy" would be a massive, massive mistake for a large variety of reasons.

Someone is the poster boy for confirmation bias. Sorry.

it is, nevertherless, the policy. best warm yourself up to it.

kiley and i have traded a number of PMs. the test is not going to be published here unless i'm convinced that the test is done correctly. there is plenty of time and opportunity to convince me of that, and what will convince me is not onerous. if the test is husbanded by somebody (or somebodys) who know what they're doing, and the protocol and process is sound, then i have no quarrel hosting its publication.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Simmer down cowboy. We are testing at A2.
Feel free to contact me if you want the details on how we are testing

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

don't worry about me. i'm chill. kiley knows where to find me ;-)

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

In my mind it really boils down to the objectivity and quality of the way the data is reported, the actual test protocol selected and the variation (limitations in equalizing) the bikes.

If those things are well thought out, disclosed and considered .. an individual should be able to weight the outcomes and form conclusions.

A2 employees are experts. LSWT employees are experts. But they test what they are asked to test.

It is important that athletes inform the tunnel employees - as they are not experts in what is important data for triathletes. Technically this is not easy.

I will be at the test. Based on the emails and interactions with those paying the freight on this, a lot of thought has been put into the testing. We will soon see.

No bike company owner that is participating is a wilting flower. If someone sees something out of order - no matter who's bike is affected - I think the owners will speak out.

So this is a test in many forms. A test of the bikes and a test of this particular process by athlete representatives. Those doing the testing have a lot at stake individually and as a group.

I'm an optimist but have been proven wrong before. :-) We will soon see.

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Dan Kennison

facebook: @triPremierBike
http://www.PremierBike.com
http://www.PositionOneSports.com

I agree wih you. On the one hand, I agree with part of what Slowman says. The quality may not be great.

On the other hand, such a policy seems grossly inconsistent to me. There have been the results of many, many suspect tests posted here. Largely the results of manufacturer's own tests. Many of which have obvious flaws. Accept P5x whitepaper involving some opaque methodology of taping unknown quantity of gels to the P5? Sure! Thanks, Cervelo!

Transparently conducted grassroots test...hey, whoa we can't have that, it might be not be to "industry standard!"

He's industry, I get it. Doesn't want his site to be a source of bad data that might upset industry cronies. Unfortunately there's no commensurate interest in calling out industry for the piles of crap frequently foisted up on us as data (fastest bike EVAR!)

I'd be OK as long as its transparently advertised as amateurish. And let the industry get a taste of its own medicine. Not so fun when the rabbit's got the gun!

He addresses who is involved, and helping with the procedures, in his OP. Are you calling into question their experience and knowledge?

There have been a number of blog posts on here over the years from people that went to the wind tunnel, and them sharing their reports. I'm not aware of you ever censoring any of their posts. Has this been a long standing policy?

Lastly, my understanding is this will be a objective report of what happens. People can pick apart the protocols and results, and make subjective opinions, based on the objective work done.

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@adamwfurlong

i participated in a well known magazine conducting an aero road bike shootout that id describe as significantly more amateurish than what this test will likely be. And, they based an entire issue of the magazine off the results.

You forgot to mention they didn't make sure the behind the seat bottle was the same angle from bike to bike and the same height behind the seat from bike to bike adding in even more noise to the result.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

The published forum policy is this, from the forum FAQ on scientific data:



I think that's going to have to be thrown out. I think he made a mistake in trying to justify it in terms of data quality. Much more justifiable if he'd just said, "This has to do with Pubes, and I don't want this stuff on my forum." Keep it personal - no problem, because Pubes was, in fact, pretty toxic. End of story.

Then why don't you lay out what you think makes a test fair. Or email me if you don't want to post it. You've got my email ;-)

The P5x test was less controlled then it should have been with gels taped everywhere, behind the seat bottles not controlled for angle, height and using different BTS carriers etc, yet you still published it.

There's no way to identically standardize from one bike to the other as you well know from when you went to the LSWT with the P4, Scott Plasma 3 etc.

What's the target we're shooting for to convince you?

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

pitty you couldnt get a trek SC in there somewhere! i understand however time would be very short.

Any ETA of when results will be available?

This (and many more like it...) was kosher but an independent test overseen by Brian and Heath (and Geoff) at one of the more reputable tunnels is under heavy scrutiny?
What qualifies something posted? That it has a major brands label plastered to it? I'm normally with you Dan, but this is kind of out of left field it seems. Maybe you could expand the reasoning for us that don't follow?

April 1st was almost two weeks ago.

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My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com

Is this a rider on bike test?

Donated

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blog

Just gonna say that I'm on Kiley's side on this one.

If he Posts the data and answers questions without drawing conclusions and throwing out wild accusations.

I believe as the current policy states that should totally be acceptable.

That being said I was under the assumption the data was only available to contributors?

"Then why don't you lay out what you think makes a test fair. Or email me if you don't want to post it. You've got my email ;-)"

i don't see it as my duty to give you a list. i see it as your duty to do what everybody else in academia does: present your methods and your qualifications (or the qualifications of the person overseeing the test can present to me his or her qualifications).

look, the personalities behind this test have chosen sides. i don't think i have to remind you what kiley said about certain of the bikes he's testing? that's rather unprecedented. i don't know that i've ever seen the folks at cervelo, specialized, et al, be that strident to that degree. that invites an extra bit of scrutiny. sometimes you find out into the future that being an asshole in the past has consequences attached to it.

i was happy, and am happy, to let this test be announced, to let the fundraising take place, and so on, here on the forum. i'd like the person with requisite wind tunnel experience to describe to me methods and protocol. if i see that this is a straight up test conducted properly by someone who knows what he's doing, i'm satisfied, you can present the results here.

otherwise, i'm not satisfied. and to anyone else, no, this isn't something we're voting on.

if you can't present to me what i'm asking for this tells me you haven't figured out in advance what it is you're going to do to make sure this test is straight-up and proper. maybe by going through this exercise you'll thank me for it in the end. if you choose not to go through the exercise, and publish elsewhere instead, then i will have proved (at least to myself) that my instincts were sound.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Hmmm.

As I mentioned in another K.A.Y. post

I would like to know the motive behind the man............other than vanity

Dan.. what I hope is a fair question. Are you going to apply that policy universally? We have seen plenty on here that doesn't meet this new standard.

EDIT.. ignore me, this has been covered. I only got a few posts into the thread and my astonishment overtook my patience.

Would love to get your thoughts on the P5x white paper, though.

if so, it's useless for product comparison purposes.

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Trent Nix
Owned and operated Tri Shop
F.I.S.T. Advanced Certified Fitter | Retul Master Certified Fitter (back when those were things)

"Dan.. what I hope is a fair question. Are you going to apply that policy universally?"

no. i don't have to ask trek or cervelo to do the test correctly, and unbiased. since rchung has chimed in (with a comment the meaning of which i can't decipher), i would not question him or ask him to establish his bona fides if he proposed to publish on a test of his, because he hasn't made outrageous comments about some of the products he purports to test, and because he has in the past established his bona fides.

we're in unprecedented territory here. we're in the era of trump. i don't know what era we're in. but after having been at this business a good long while my instinct tells me to look hard over the shoulder of this before i let it be published in a place i control and am responsible for.

and, look, i'm happy also just saying fuck-all, i don't have the time to scrutinize this test. circle-jerk it on twitter amongst yourselves. i've got better things to do. nevertheless, i'm willing to accommodate this test as well as i know how. but those are my non-negotiable terms.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Perhaps, but some bikes test very well with no rider (Ventum) and others do better with a rider (P5). Personally I don't give a monkey's how fast my bike is when I'm not on it.

the rider destroys the integrity of the test because the rider can't adequately control their position.

I hear you and concede your point, but it doesn't change the fact that tunnel data with a rider on the bike makes bike comparisons effectively useless. It's why Cervelo uses foam DZ.

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Trent Nix
Owned and operated Tri Shop
F.I.S.T. Advanced Certified Fitter | Retul Master Certified Fitter (back when those were things)

"That being said I was under the assumption the data was only available to contributors?"

in which case we don't have any disagreement here. if data is only available to contributors then the data won't be published here and i don't really have any say-so (and don't deserve any say-so). i'm simply saying in advance what my terms are for publication here.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

thanks for taking the time to clarify some.

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My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com

It's harder for a rider to control their position. But we've seen riders time after time get within .002 of their CdA in the tunnel run after run in the same position.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Are you accusing Heath or I or A2/Geoff of having a side in this? If that is the case you need to back the F off that soap box. Right now.


I told you to email me and I'd explain everything.

What it sounds like is you're questioning our knowledge, experience and abilities. If you use the search function you'll see we've done product testing/design for several companies and had direct impact on multiple world championships on the pro level with our testing

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

I may come for a few hours as an independent observer and snag pics

So use a mannequin or borrow DZ. Lots of us know our position well enough to be able to hold it as long as the geos are identical. I'd rather have rider-on with some margin of error, than just bike only.

The rider is the most important part of the system when it comes to drag, so not taking them into account already makes the test useless.

" If you use the search function you'll see we've done product testing/design for several companies and had direct impact on multiple world championships on the pro level with our testing"

in which case what i'm asking for will be an easy hurdle.

just, to be clear, running a wind tunnel test is an art distinct from (say) being a fluid dynamics expert who doesn't have wind tunnel experience. there are also particulars to testing one bike v another that i am familiar with, and i want to make sure you know what you're doing in that kind of test.

and with that, i'm done here. have to go shoe some horses. we can argue about this. or you guys can just give me what i'm asking for.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I don't doubt that, but is that the norm or the outlier? Were the rider to dismount, change bikes (assuming the same geometry), and then ride could they achieve similar results? And then what if the ergonomics of the armpads are different?

I'm not trying to be obstinate, I just want to people to recognize good wind tunnel testing is exceptionally difficult, even when done by smart, well-intentioned people. And that's why most wind tunnel testing isn't very useful or helpful in making purchasing decisions. It's also why people are generally hesitant to provide the results of their testing.

You can learn a lot from testing in the wind tunnel, but you can't really figure out which bike is best for a consumer. But that's exactly what people think tunnel data is telling them.

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Trent Nix
Owned and operated Tri Shop
F.I.S.T. Advanced Certified Fitter | Retul Master Certified Fitter (back when those were things)

Sounds like Dan is just being biased bc of Kiley which is fine but he did a poor job of stating that. He makes it sound like he's questioning everybody involved when really it's probably only Kiley he really has concerns about.

That's not really true. YOU can't figure out which bike is best for your customer, but that customer can use information given by you regarding aerodynamic testing and use the aggregate knowledge to decide. As you well know, MOST customers don't read ST. In fact, 95% of the triathlon consumer world has very little idea of what ST is other than "oh yea, I don't go there, they're all douchebags" (seriously).

Plus, Kiley's position is very solid, and he practices it a lot. Whether he uses himself or some sort of mannequin the rider-on data will be as good as it is possible to be.

Were it only that easy (and that's not easy).

Even if you did have DZ, then you have to fairly set up the tests, meaning you find the optimal size for each bike given it's relative geometry (no testing 54 vs 54, for example, but armpad stack vs armpad stack). And even then, the aerodynamic profile of many bikes is different from size to size.

Take the Felt IA, for example. The larger the bike, the faster it is relative to the field. I believe I've seen Dave Koesel (he can't correct me if I'm incorrect) argue that the bigger size is faster than the smaller size, because the bigger airfoil of the Felt IA reduces drag at some yaws (even though surface area is larger). If that's indeed the case, then one bike might test better for a rider with a 600 armpad stack than might test for a rider with a 640 armpad stack.

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Trent Nix
Owned and operated Tri Shop
F.I.S.T. Advanced Certified Fitter | Retul Master Certified Fitter (back when those were things)

But then that begs the question that testing with a rider is superior to testing without. I think I'm arguing that testing without a rider provides better discernment between bikes (assuming they are set up appropriately, of course).

The rider certainly makes up the bulk of the drag, but if you want to test apples to apples and you don't have options like FDZ, I think you might get better and more meaningful comparison data by testing just the bikes on their own.

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Trent Nix
Owned and operated Tri Shop
F.I.S.T. Advanced Certified Fitter | Retul Master Certified Fitter (back when those were things)

But at that point, what's the point at all?? If you can't normalize it to a reasonable degree based on: these are the bikes that fit me, I will test them how they fit me, and how I would use them for a 70.3....then what are any of us doing here at all? You can throw out essentially every single white paper and every aero test that anyone has done because it's not ME on MY bike.

I think you do as much as you can, and you run with it. You control what you can to a reasonable degree based on cost and time constraints as well as equipment availability. And then you have a pretty darn good test.

Exactly, which makes the entire test pointless for anything other than a vanity project. Either you go frame-only (which is just a dick-measuring contest for those who based frame design on similar protocol), or you put a rider on and find the bike that works best for their position.

Think I'll save my pennies.

Is that what this data is going to be used for? So that the OP can make decisions as to what works for them? Or will the data be wielded forevermore to crack the skulls of nonbelievers?

I'm all for testing. I'm especially all for good testing. And I really hope this testing happens and applaud the OP for his effort in this endeavor. I applaud him for efforts to educate himself and others (even if his tactics aren't always the friendliest). But I think it's in everyone's best interests, including the OP's best interests, to approach this and the results it provides with skepticism.

I'll just say that, assuming the bikes being compared are set up the same, I'm more likely to find the data produced from runs without the rider to be of more value than the runs with the rider aboard. Others can decide as they see fit.

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Trent Nix
Owned and operated Tri Shop
F.I.S.T. Advanced Certified Fitter | Retul Master Certified Fitter (back when those were things)

Just to be more clear since you obviously haven't understood or have bias against what I've written.

1. email me for the protocol to get what you are asking for. How hard is that to do? You want it, email for it. Problem solved. It's probably easier than shoeing a horse. (idk though never tried that but have used email a few times)

2. Do you think this is our first wind tunnel testing gig? If you do you should read your own website more often

EDIT: you also have a typo in your Giant review.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

*fwiw imo you should look at all data, including your own tests done on your own equipment with a healthy dose of skepticism. It'll keep you honest. (It's also why sharing your personal results from testing is often just a pitfall for other people who don't do their due diligence.)

More information is never a bad thing, especially good information tempered with common sense.

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My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com

Or there is a third option!

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

I wouldn't say pointless. Personal testing is really, really time consuming (and money-consuming if a wind tunnel is used). Both bike setup, and the # of trials it takes. And when considering the possible combinations of dozens of good frames, wheels, bars, bottles, tires, and other things, it's a combinatorial explosion of permutations where a full lifetime of personal testing couldn't burn through. And all that time is time that could be spent doing other important things. Like training.

Having a rough ordinal list allows management of that explosion. Start at a reasonable good place. Avoid things that are unlikely to work well. For example, start at combinations that will likely get you to, say, 0.2 or better. Then do the personal testing to work down to 0.19 (or whatever)

You might miss some freak interaction where only you achieve some magical benefit. But you're likely to miss that freak interaction anyway. And, generally, there aren't many freak interactions. Fast frames are fast. Fast wheels are fast. I know you love to repeat your bit about finding super special things that only you know about. But that's not the general experience of people who've tested.

Edit: The value is in basically being able to call B.S. on B.S. and not waste time on things that are very unlikely to be worth your time.

@trentnix, @grill, @whomever else.

everyone will be happy. the plan is to do both rider on and rider off.

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@adamwfurlong

Excellent. With rider-off, please control for saddle (same saddle on everything at the same saddle height) and control the bar setup (same armpad/stack and reach across the board).

The OP mentioned lots of different options which will require lots of different tests. Prioritizing is key, because you'll run out of time and money before you'll run out of things you want to test. We tested negative sweeps only on our modest (but crazy expensive) trip to the wind tunnel and that allowed us to do 35-40 runs before the clock ran out. We learned a lot, but mostly we learned how much we didn't know.

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Trent Nix
Owned and operated Tri Shop
F.I.S.T. Advanced Certified Fitter | Retul Master Certified Fitter (back when those were things)

edits added


you are right but not pragmatic enough.


most of what we have today is A. its a bunch of engineers writing rules and then playing a game by those rules and [spoiler!] winning.


what the P5x gave us was C. they assumed an amalgamated position (and luggage) and said "this is what you proles will experience".


what we want to do is B. we want to "find the bike that works best for MY (their) position ". this isn't feasible. I can't find my fit, buy a dozen bikes, with dozens of components, and dial it all in the wind tunnel. it would cost hundreds of thousands of dollars.


for the record, B has happened one time ever. it was Crowie before the 70.3 WC in Vegas. and he picked a Cervelo!!! LOL

How about even normalizing extension shape, bend and reach? Is that important?

Since thats also been done/considered.

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"One Line Robert"

It's absolutely important, and some extensions will test better than others without the rider's hands covering the extension. That bike that ships with ski bends instead of s-bends is going to be unfairly penalized. But then that requires a substantial amount of cost and effort to do. And down the rabbit hole we go...

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Trent Nix
Owned and operated Tri Shop
F.I.S.T. Advanced Certified Fitter | Retul Master Certified Fitter (back when those were things)

come on dude(s), seriously. Don't you think we thought about seats, bars, extension shapes about 89 emails, 15 phone calls and at least 6 weeks ago?

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Excellent. Glad to know the testing is in immensely capable hands.

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Trent Nix
Owned and operated Tri Shop
F.I.S.T. Advanced Certified Fitter | Retul Master Certified Fitter (back when those were things)

All bikes that accept standard extensions will have the same size, bend, shape, angle and length extensions. Lots of money and time have been spent to normalize as many variables as possible. I'd say beyond the degree we've seen from other manufacturer tests (the P5x using straight extensions for the SC as an example).

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"One Line Robert"

Donated.

This thread makes me LOL SO MUCH. I'm just glad One Line Robert and Kiley are BACK!!!!!!!!!!! Bill needs to get a chance to become Two Line Robert.

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

Why not just post on TriRoost/TRS....will save a lot of headaches

No one reads TRS anymore.

---

Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

I'm just curious where your proverbial pitchfork has been stored for EVERY OTHER WIND TUNNEL REPORT EVERY POSTED ON SLOWTWITCH. You're normally pretty rational, so this is sort of surprising.

I would suggest creating a FACEBOOK page or something along those lines and just post it there if that is acceptable to you. If at some point, you are able to post here with less issues, you can get post it later. There are a fair number of people that are interested without all of the other BS attached.

Adding to Brian's assertion that this is actually not true. I've done multiple days with Specialized in their tunnel. According to Chris & Mark, my own ability to repeat my position is better than their ability to repeat a position with a mannequin. I was, at the time anyway, the "most repeatable" athlete they'd had in there, but still I'd doubt that I'm THAT "special."

There are two important things. The first is that there is human error with both mannequin and rider. It's a human putting the mannequin on the bike after all. And the second is that humans can use perceptual, visual, and auditory cues to repeat their own positions and to fine tune it while they are on the bike. With a mannequin, it's a much bigger process than to say, "oh, move a couple mm forward/back."

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

James Haycraft wrote:

I'm just curious where your proverbial pitchfork has been stored for EVERY OTHER WIND TUNNEL REPORT EVERY POSTED ON SLOWTWITCH. You're normally pretty rational, so this is sort of surprising.

I think I'm being pretty rational right now, but opinions may differ! And I'm fine with that.

I honestly never participated in those discussions because I either didn't see them or didn't feel like I knew enough to add my voice. My participation on this forum is actually pretty recent, to be honest, and it's somewhat sparse as well.

But what I do see, at least in this discussion, are three perilous signs:

1. The OP, despite what I believe are good intentions in this case, is a noted polemic. It becomes hard not to be skeptical that the results of this testing will be used in a fair and appropriate manner. Especially when statements like "first of its kind in many ways" are made. Especially when the questions the testing is supposed to answer are complex.
2. Statements by individuals involved that seem upset they aren't getting the deference they believe they deserve.
3. Comment after comment on the GoFundMe say things suggesting they expect the results to help inform them on which bike they should buy.

I'm participating in this thread, trying to bring a bit of skepticism to the exercise, because I've made the exact same mistakes myself. I paid $6k, plus salaries, plus transportation, to do our own testing. And I was guilty of all three of the things I mentioned above.

I thought we'd be able to "wade through marketing" and get to the !truth!. I was convinced that all my planning and thinking and previous trips to the tunnel made me well-equipped to get real answers. And I was convinced that since I was spending my own money, my testing would be without bias. I thought we would be able to answer the "what to buy?" questions. And ultimately I found out I didn't know much about wind tunnels and aerodynamics at all.

No mistake, our trip was valuable, we learned a lot, and we plan on going back. But we've tempered our expectations about what kind of questions we can definitively answer and what we can really learn from wind tunnel testing. We've learned how much more we have to learn to even be competent in giving advice about aerodynamics. And we continue to try and equip ourselves better so we can speak to customers confidently and help them make informed purchasing decisions.

Ryan Cooper with Best Bike Split is coming to the shop this Friday and Saturday to do presentations and talk aerodynamics. Every time I see the poor guy, I gnaw his ear off trying to extract as much knowledge out of his head as possible. His presentations are free and anyone reading is welcome to come and join us.

Every time I talk to Mat Steinmetz I hit him with question after question trying to learn more, until he finally walks away just so he can be left alone.

I do the same with John Cobb. I do the same with Dave Ripley. And on and on. And one common thing I continue to learn from all of these people is that skepticism is healthy when it comes to wind tunnel analysis.

This stuff is really, really hard. I admire anyone putting as much time and energy into this as you guys are. And I look forward to the results. But you'll have to pardon my apprehension as to whether the efforts will accomplish the mission described in the OP.

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Trent Nix
Owned and operated Tri Shop
F.I.S.T. Advanced Certified Fitter | Retul Master Certified Fitter (back when those were things)

I want to address a few points.

I am / we are working and will work with Dan to hopefully gain his comfort with this testing. It's an exceptionally difficult task, and I can understand his skepticism not having seen how much time and effort and other resources have gone into planning for this day. I hope he will become comfortable with it, and I'm open to his ideas and thoughts. Like the many other experts whose feedback we've received and valued, his can also improve the testing. As can others who are commenting here. So I appreciate the questions and feedback -- that's the point of this thread.

The testing is of a rider on and rider of nature of five bikes (or six) from five manufacturers. I will be the rider on board, and the reason for that is practical. I already have two of these bicycles pre-configured identically, and I have been able to, with help from lots of others, obtain a slate of identical components to work towards consistency across the board.

Most of you have no idea how difficult this is. Even with our best efforts, not everything can be normalized entirely. For instance, the Tactical comes with one shape of extensions and one shape only -- they cannot be replaced. So unless we were to use the Tactical as the common denominator and purchase 22.2 extensions that are of similar shape, we are going to have some differences. Even if we had identical extensions to the Tactical, the clamps for those extensions will differ from bike to bikes, and the location of the clamp will differ slightly relative to pad center. Still, we will come close, or as close as we can.

I/we considered a mannequin. I traded emails with Mat Steinmetz almost two months ago, and he was going to work towards borrowing the same (very expensive) mannequin Cervelo used to facilitate their testing. The reality was that if we were to use that mannequin then neither of my two bikes would have been an option. Manny is two sizes up from my bikes. So in order to effectuate this testing I would have needed to come up with five new bikes. That just wasn't going to happen. Moreover, the mannequin needs to be bolted into the pads, so if you want to amass a slate of pads and cups -- as I have, to best normalize the ergonomics of that variable -- they aren't going to be much use after the testing. And then, if you use manny -- after all that -- there's still this question of does the static position of Manny really adequately capture the nature of the drive side slow for a pedaling rider? The Andean and the P5-X both have very different designs in this area, than say, Ventum.

Will there be more noise in the "rider on" (vs. "rider off") output data -- yes! The data will need to have larger error bars. Even with the rider on testing we are working to eliminate variables. I will not be wearing a helmet, for instance, because that's a variable that makes the head position variably doubly difficult to control (helmet moves and head moves). My plan is to look straight down for the duration, which is also not something that is practical, but it helps reduce the noise.

trentnix's logic taken to the extreme becomes absurd. You could be Specialized and have a wind tunnel in your office and still not come close to scratching the surface in terms of the interacting variables across bikes, sizes, riders, components, hydration setups, cockpit length (the list is endless). As Haycraft said, at a certain point you need to pick a protocol, simplify where necessary, and properly caveat the results on the back end. The point is to make absolute claims that in every case these results apply to you! They may, or they may not. But if we find large differences between certain frames (or don't) then I think we can say with confidence that this learning could apply more broadly.

Finally, I want to address accusations of bias. If I do have bias, I don't know in which way I would be biased. As an equal opportunity critic, Publius said bad things about every single one of these bicycles (and many more). The whole Publius thing was meant to take one kernel of an opinion and present it in a way that would stimulate engagement and discussion on that issue. I THOUGHT THAT WAS OBVIOUS. That worked until it stopped working and now it's done. RIP Publius. I'm sorry he hurt your feelings. Can we move on?

The perception that the wind tunnel is some mysterious voodoo magic place is hilarious to me.

---

Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

 
what aspects of the upcoming test changed your mind going from offering front page space for the original test to kind of not wanting to even allow it on the forum ?

Massive mistake from your side. This is a god-damn forum, not pubmed for Christ's sake. Do you ask all the site sponsors to provide peer reviewed studies on all their marketing claims? The implications are that you can spread Marketing BS as long as you sponsor the site. But you can't publish data that can make the sponsors look bad unless your data is backed by methods approved by the site owner.

So much for freedom of speech!

This statement is not true. Nobody ever read TRS.

However, there is a home for this publication over there should Dan not allow it here.

---

Internet User

Just because it irks me, "freedom of speech" is a right guaranteed by The US Constitution from infringement by the GOVERNMENT. Private enterprise is allowed - and does - restrict freedom of speech all the damn time. There is (almost) nothing that makes you look more foolish than complaining about "Freedom of Speech" on a forum like this.

Second, and related the above, we - meaning Slowtwitch - are potentially liable for anything written/posted here that could be considered harmful/libelous/defamatory/etc. There is an obvious, logical, and implied skepticism when Cervelo presents its own data. When someone else is presenting data that is seemingly objective, that same skepticism may be withheld. This has the potential to be problematic. Let's take this a step further. In addition to wind tunnel testing, Kiley might also be proposing to subject these frames to impact testing to judge their "safety." The implications of such testing are massive. This was part of a "debate" I had with Publius (RIP) on another thread. The impact of negative information is outsize relative to positive data.

Negative data is typically viewed as more truthful. It would take a lot of positive data points to offset one negative data point. The damage that can be done to the reputation of a company is massive. Outside of any potential legal liability, Dan is a long time pillar of the triathlon community and is understandably reticent to allow someone who has shown a penchant for cutting down companies to present his "data" on this forum without some vetting of that information. Why should Slowtwitch enable someone who has - at least superficially - demonstrated that they have an axe to grind tear into those companies who actually support this sport?

Trolls have in fact won the internet. https://theoutline.com/...-the-trolls-have-won

And the response is always the same from most of these people, who - in person - are decent enough. "I thought it was obvious I was just playing a role; I was just being a devil's advocate..." Bullshit. You're sniping from the cheap seats. All these companies have real skin in the game. And if you don't think as a part of this community that you have some responsibility to support the companies that help make this sport possible, I'm sorry. We here at Slowtwitch feel that we do have that responsibility.

---

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

You touch on it briefly here, but one thing that is missing from ALL "whitepapers" (along with error bars, which I hope you include) is a section on possible sources of error. All of these engineers know this. No professor ever would have approved a paper without a acknowledgement of possible sources of error. I think it would be well worth your time - and would speak to your credibility - if you put a section together on that. Things like the extensions on the Premier Tactical, why you didn't use a mannequin, etc.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

Just a small note/suggestion: I have a Selle SMP road saddle with very little padding that I use for my field testing and I also took it with me to A2. The unique shape of the saddle coupled with the fact that it has no padding and I prefer clothing with basically no chamois means that there is really only "one" position for my rear. If I move forward or back on that saddle I get significant "feedback" (lol). If one were to look at variability for a rider in a wind tunnel or field testing, I'd hazard to guess the rider moving fore/aft on the saddle is one of the larger causes.

Man, if the results are half as exciting as this thread it'll be awesome!

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--Chris

Do the parties involved have any known and/or suspected ties to Russian oligarchs, who might have financial interests in the outcome of these tests?

---

"Most of my heroes don't appear on no stamps"
Blog = http://extrememomentum.com|Photos = http://wheelgoodphotos.com

"Just because it irks me, "freedom of speech" is a right guaranteed by The US Constitution from infringement by the GOVERNMENT."

he can't read your post. i've lost my patience.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

 
i think the distinction here is between people trying to do tests and sharing on the forum (chung aero, toma tires, etc) with the intent of learning stuff, vs someone using dans forum to gain resources and an audience for what has at least been indicated to be a biased publicity exercise. sounds fair to me.

The one thing that, above all else, could help make the testing reproducible and informative has been punted on because it's too hard.

That you even pursued the idea is commendable. The thing is, I agree. It makes testing slow, expensive, and tedious. But that's the price to be paid in order to adequately answer the questions you're hoping to answer.

EDIT: One additional note - at A2 they have a camera and projector so your head position is projected on a whiteboard sitting in front of your front wheel. You can establish a position, they'll trace your head, and then you just simply have to put your head in the lines to reproduce a previous position.

It's not foolproof, but it's clever and definitely reduces error.

---

Trent Nix
Owned and operated Tri Shop
F.I.S.T. Advanced Certified Fitter | Retul Master Certified Fitter (back when those were things)

Well said Jordan.

You might have missed Jordan's post above about how not even a mannequin is a silver bullet in terms of repeatability. I have heard similar things from others, including one experienced tester who became so frustrated with a mannequin moving around that he threw it in the garbage.

You also may have missed my point about a static mannequin not properly capturing drive side flow that is much more turbulent with a pedaling rider. It is conceivable that the Andean's "aero core" would test quite a bit differently with a pedaling rider vs a static mannequin, especially at yaw.

So no, I wouldn't say that I or we discarded the idea of manny just because it was too hard. There's disagreement among very experienced and informed people about whether even a static dummy bolted to the frame is a better or more reliable model of reality than a live rider. Both can have errors and both types of errors should be admitted and detailed and where possible quantified.

Fair enough and I respect that opinion and Jordan's opinion as well. And we're in agreement on another point - neither of us is very informed. :)

But I will note that repeatability isn't something that the Specialized tunnel really does at all - with Jordan, with mannequins, with bikes on their own, etc. I don't believe there is a meaningful explanation to the idea that somehow a human being is more repeatable than a static mannequin, but I don't doubt that wasn't the result Jordan and the S engineers experienced.

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Trent Nix
Owned and operated Tri Shop
F.I.S.T. Advanced Certified Fitter | Retul Master Certified Fitter (back when those were things)

Who cares? All these bikes are FUGLY.

Finally. Some rational thought.

Though, the B2 included in the test is pretty hawt.

And more seriously, these non traditional frames have grown on me. I'm not sure I like any of them aesthetically more than say, a really nicely appointed P5. But over time they've become less appalling. That includes the Ventum, Omni, Andean, P5x, etc.

---

"One Line Robert"

You posted this without error bars??! We can't even evaluate the possible sources of error in fugliness. Like if you're drunk. Also you're a nordic skier, and nordic skiing went full fugly when they started allowing so-called "skating." You, sir, have a long way to go if you want to establish credibility.

Also, I think the Felt B series looks OK. And the Premier is OK, borrowing from what I think is the pretty sexy Canyon design language. I'm with you on all the others.

* All assertions are +/- 10% on the NBFS (Normalized Bike FUGLY Scale). .Normalized where 100% is the P5x and 0% is the English Cycles Time Trial Mk2
Possible sources of error are: GFY.

What are you basing your assessment that the Specialized tunnel is not repeatable off of?

I've been in the Specialized tunnel twice. A year apart. Position between the two trips was unchanged though.

In both trips we did a comparison test of CdA with the Evade vs the McLaren TT. And the CdA differential between those two helmets was virtually identical between the two trips - 0.006 m^2, or just over 5w.

Since the purpose of this thread is - to a large extent - the very real issues with baseless accusations against the credibility of those who have established their bona fides, I'd ask what proof - if any - you have the Mark, Chris, & Cam aren't able to demonstrate repeatable data? Because that certainly doesn't jive with either my own experience or with subsequent discussions I've had with them about other findings.

Mark can also speak, if he wants, to the challenges with dealing with a mannequin. The fact that I was more repeatable than the mannequin was noteworthy, but it also wasn't surprising to either Mark or Chris.

---

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

Secondhand discussion with folks that work at two other tunnels. I think the general criticism revolved around the shape of the tunnel and the difficulty in straightening the air.

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Trent Nix
Owned and operated Tri Shop
F.I.S.T. Advanced Certified Fitter | Retul Master Certified Fitter (back when those were things)

More agreement here. Man, agreeing can be fun.

But the English TT bike is so hawt. I've always wondered how it'd compare in the tunnel against the best carbon.

Who owns it? Can they ship to A2 by end of week?

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"One Line Robert"

Are you sure you/they were/are talking about the Specialized tunnel? That would surprise me. Because those issues sound like you are describing Faster.

I guess this also assumes that the people you were talking to are more knowledgeable of the Specialized tunnel than Mark or Chris?

You spent a lot of time talking about the potential pitfalls of attempting a comprehensive tunnel test (all valid - not disagreeing there). But then repeat second hand information about the validity of data coming out of a tunnel you've actually never been to? Seems an odd stance.

---

"One Line Robert"

I'm certain they were talking about the S tunnel. Isn't the S tunnel a big rectangle?

The way it was described for my public educated brain to grok was that air moves well in a column, a la the shape of a tornado, hurricane, etc.

Additionally, one of the notes the Texas A&M folks mentioned was that their tunnel is a big loop, meaning that it helps make the air more straight when it enters the testing area (as opposed to sucking air in one end and just pushing it out the other end).

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Trent Nix
Owned and operated Tri Shop
F.I.S.T. Advanced Certified Fitter | Retul Master Certified Fitter (back when those were things)

I feel confident that the people I talked to are educated on the subject. But I concede that doesn't make them correct.

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Trent Nix
Owned and operated Tri Shop
F.I.S.T. Advanced Certified Fitter | Retul Master Certified Fitter (back when those were things)

Good god... Precisely my point. It's not really worth getting into the tall weeds of tunnel design here. There are valid of criticisms that can be made about every type of tunnel design. And there's absolutely no clear answer about what sort of tunnel design is "best."

The Specialized tunnel has quite a few positives that really stand alone in the industry. The biggest one is that it was it was designed solely for bikes, so the balance is perfectly flush with the floor. And, of course, the balance never gets taken in or out.

But, to the larger point, for someone who has spent most of this thread attempting to pick apart the test protocol presented here, for you to say, "Repeatability is not something Specialized does well" and to not state that you are basing that off what is AT BEST secondhand - and possibly third/fourth/fifth/Nth-hand - information that you do not fully comprehend is totally absurd.

If you can elaborate a thoughtful criticism about what - EXACTLY - is wrong with the Specialized tunnel AND/OR present data DEMONSTRATING that it is not repeatable, fine. Until then...

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

I think the Andean hits 105%.

Wow. Guess I didn't realize how sensitive the topic was. You guys have a great day. I'm punching out.

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Trent Nix
Owned and operated Tri Shop
F.I.S.T. Advanced Certified Fitter | Retul Master Certified Fitter (back when those were things)

Inside the error bars, so I'll allow it.

FWIW Dan, I think the main requirement for posting here should be that they need to be completely transparent about their testing protocol. Tell us what the setups were that were tested, in detail, and how those were determined. Also, report EVERY test, not just the ones you like. That's already a way higher bar than almost any other tests we discuss here.

Sure, most people have some biases, and some of the guys involved have some opinions that they've already stated. However, their commercial interest/biases can't possibly be anywhere near the likes of Cervelo or Trek, or Flo, or whoever else's tests we discuss here all the time. The fact that they want to run the tests at all, at considerable expense to themselves presumably, means they have some interest in finding the right answer. I would urge you to require transparency but let them post the results.

The Mk2 is a beautiful bike but looks like it would have the stiffness of a wet noodle.

You're being reasonable, and I think our two moderators have communicated this poorly, with some odd rationalizations. But I've kind of come full circle on this. The closest thing to this effort might be TomA's wheel testing. Which was quasi-independent, but had a Specialized "flavor" to it, using a lot of Specialized products and the Specialized wind tunnel.

And he served the results on his own blog. Just pointed to it from here. This forum, being based on like 1970's InterWeb technology, isn't even well served to displaying data well. Formatting, etc.

No big deal to post them on one of the many free blog services. And if it becomes very popular for these guys, that way they can start getting their own ad revenue instead of driving it all to Slowtwitch.

The results *will* get discussed here. That pretty much can't be stopped unless the moderators go full Kim Jong-il on our asses.

you still around after that? ;)

---

________
It doesn't really matter what Phil is saying, the music of his voice is the appropriate soundtrack for a bicycle race. HTupolev

"I think the main requirement for posting here should be that they need to be completely transparent about their testing protocol. Tell us what the setups were that were tested, in detail, and how those were determined."

behind the scenes we've made a lot of progress behind the scenes today determining just that.

just, i found out a lot today about human nature. i found out a number of things about a number of people today. we're trying our best to provide a service here. some of what we do here (the lavender room, for example) make is absolutely no money, actually cost us money, but we provide this for those folks because they enjoy it.

i'm pretty disillusioned by a lot of what i've read on this forum. kim jong il? i'm kim jong il? okay.

honest to god. i've made my money. i'd rather be walking the pacific crest trail. some of the folks here, i'm really just happier i think if they go elsewhere.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

So, despite it being spelling out who is involved in the OP, and despite having never set these kind of standards before, you accused everyone involved in this test of being incompetent at best and malicious in their intentions at worst.

When people rightfully call you out on this, you say your feelings are hurt ("I am disillusioned").

With no involvement in this testing, besides general interest, I can say that I concede to a lot of the points Jordan made about how we view manufacturer white papers vs "independent" studies. His points make sense. Can you concede that perhaps you were a bit reactive to this thread because.... ? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. It seems like you don't like Kiley. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

---

----
@adamwfurlong

It seemed to me that rather than Dan developing an immediate dislike for the now penitent Kiley, it was more that he was taking into account all of Kiley's incendiary rhetoric about bike companies, a few manufacturers in particular. I got the message that if he was going to, having more or less allowed Kiley to say those things previously, now turn around and publish what purports to be a fair, open, cross-brand "shootout" of bikes, which would also claim to make concrete recommendations on bike purchases...... he was going to demand a perhaps higher than normal standard of transparency about methods and testing to do so. And that because the study crosses brands, it was more volatile in nature than say a single-brand, self-performed studies -- which we ought to be suspicious of in any event.

I dunno. I'm with you, just kinda hanging back to see what comes out of it. But this testing *may* influence a bike purchase by me in the near future, too..... so I hope they're very careful.

-Eric

Apparently I really did ruffle some feathers. Tempers are short.

To remove all snark: I really do enjoy the simplicity and clarity of this forum tech. It's a precision tool that does what it's intended to do very well.

My only point was that it's not intended to present scientific data.

"It seems like you don't like Kiley. Please correct me if I'm wrong."

i like kiley fine. he and i have exchanged a fair number of emails, some of which refer to personal requests (help in finding the right sized bike and whatnot). but i'm charged with running a reader forum, which is read by a lot of people. when folks (more than just kiley) have been openly critical - disdainful - of the very bikes being tested, i'm going to scrutinize what these folks want to publish on this site.

i'm not going to disallow it, but as a condition of publication HERE i'm going to require more than the minimum because of the comments made about these brands in the lead-up.

if you don't approve of the moderation here, there is a respectful way to tender your critiques. if you really don't approve of the moderation here, if it's really that bad, i don't see how your self-respect allows you to remain.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

for all of Pube's "hatred" for disc brakes, Kiley has paid for not one, but two disc brake, non traditional TT bikes.

studies published by mfg's have financial incentives (via marketing campaigns) tied to results.

what gains can Kiley make by publishing this? (I will again concede Jordan's point about the relationship between good reviews vs bad reviews).

further, a lot of people are attached to this. Dan K. Heath. Brian. A2. more that perhaps are not public knowledge. why is it assumed that they would let their names be tied to this, if they were going to allow for a shit test protocol?

---

----
@adamwfurlong

I absolutely agree with you. But I also see where Dan is coming from. And I have the absolute utmost respect for everyone else involved in this. Bona fides well established for me.

-Eric

Kiley and I need Slowtwitch's help. My shop is supplying the P5-X and I'll be taking it to the tunnel. The P5-X is a medium but we have two problems. Kiley needs to cut the seat post and the stem but the replacement costs for both these items is $595. The bike has to be returned in shape to sell and if we cut the stem to match Kiley's fit, we need to replace it.

If anyone wants to help, we need to raise $595 in the next couple of days. Thanks for the help. You can donate to the Go Fund Me.

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

The irony is rich here.

Sure. Care to donate?

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

Thanks BryanD.

For the collective: BryanD is able to provide the P5-X because his local shop has obtained approval from Cervelo for us to use the frame and bike in our test. Inside Out Sports in North Carolina is a major Cervelo dealer, and I think the fact that they have secured the parent company's approval speaks to the confidence manufacturers, even large ones, have in this test.

But the reality is that involving the P5-X in this test could require consideration of almost $600. The seatpost must be cut to spec which would require ~$300, and the stem must be cut to meet spec which would require ~$300.

While I and the collective group want to have the P5-X involved in this assessment, the price for participation is simply untenable given the resources available and those involved. If someone individually -- or the group and community effectively -- would like to bridge the gap of money or resources to secure the P5-X participation in this exercise, I am all ears.

But at this point, we may have to proceed with the P5 only.

here is what you wrote:

"Testing the P5-X would be ridiculous. This is clear and convincing evidence it's slower than an intelligently configured P5. As we've known all along."

hence my requiring transparency, and a foreknowledge of the process, as a condition of publication of the data here on this site. (heath and brian have been helpful in this process.)

perhaps a lesson learned: best not to decide in advance the worth of a product bike you're endeavoring to test, unless you're certain you'll never be given the opportunity to test it!

i like to think maybe this is the evolution of a new forum superstar. maybe your seat post cost problem can be solved. just, if it is, are you prepared to reconsider your view of this bike, perhaps allowing it the dignity of a fighting chance?

if so, i'll put up the first $300. now you have to find the rest.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

If Dan adds $300, I'll send $50. We need $250 more to go.

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

Willing to add some cash here as well, but what are we talking about with respect to the P5x stem? My understanding is that it slides up and down, so it's adjustable without having to cut? Seatpost makes perfect sense of course.

The stem can be cut as well. Currently it is too long and bottoms out making it impossible to reach Kiley's fit.

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

I just donated. There are so very few independent wind tunnel tests. Maybe this one won't be perfect, but I would much rather have SOME data than not at all!

Well that's just stupid. Money incoming anyway.

I wish this was a little further out so that I could send my Pearson to give the rest a good trouncing.
Unfortunately I am in the middle of several structural modifications to mount a proper brake (TriRig) instead of Graeme's custom V-Brake, and fixing a couple of other initial aerodynamic design flaws behind the stem and fork crown. Oh well.

Chris

It's Dan's site, he can do whatever the fuck he wants with it.....I don't see any issue with him not allowing the results.

If you show me where to donate I will do $50 in the am

https://www.gofundme.com/...tt-bike-aerodynamics

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

thank you for the show of solidarity. but just to be clear! what i'm requiring as a condition of publication is that i'm satisfied the test is conducted correctly, because rightly or wrongly a lot of weight is going to be attached to this (because it's got the patina of being unbiased), and because a lot of unflattering statements were made about the very bikes being tested by the very person organizing the testing (statements he may now wish he'd not made; we've all said words we wish we could reach out and grab after they've left our mouths).

what i'm hearing today is giving me some comfort. so i'm optimistic. cautiously. i think we're headed down a good path.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Donated. Would be nice to have the p5x included

Thank you!

It looks like we are at $300 from Dan and $100 from myself and 2 others total.

We still need $195 to go! I can get the parts ordered asap as long as we can cover this.

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

I sent 100 bucks yesterday before you made the post for the parts.

Why did your lbs get cervelo approval? Were they concerned if cervelo found out your lbs was involved and the results weren't to cervelo' liking, they would get dropped by cervelo? I understand them not wanting to piss off cervelo but at the same time, they should be able to donate a bike without having to seek approval. Cervelo doesn't own the bike, your lbs does.

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blog

This is great to hear. I'm looking forward to hearing about this process and what the results show. I haven't bought a new bike in a long time and this could push me over to buying one. I'm sure it's probably too late, but I'd like to see an old school P3 with solid aero upgrades, like tririg brakes and bars. I don't own a bike set up like that, but that's a relatively user friendly set up, easily travels, and user friendly for mechanics. Finalky, it is a relatively long in the tooth design, that still might be uber competitive.

I will say that I think Dan has every right to allow the results or not allow them. At the end of the day, this is Dan's business. I know I wouldn't allow skewed results or bad data be broadcast-ed from my business which could tarnish my name and my business. Those involved should put themselves in Dan's shoes. He can't just assume you are going to complete a good and fair test. That would be a recipe for disaster of his name and business. So everyone should just get off their freaking pedestal's, come back down to earth, and converse offline. I hope those involved have reached out to Dan and explained their process, protocol, plans, etc. After all, if they want the results to be posted here, they should be seeking out Dan (call or e-mail him directly). Dan shouldn't have to be seeking out them (as DesertDude was trying to get him to do).

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blog

Donated

Donated!

Did you think of pad shapes?

probably for many of the same reasons that dan wants transparency and good practice. also, it's actually likely that, given schedules of payments for bike orders/pre-seasons, that cervelo at this point still owns that bike.

I will take care of the $195.00

I'm always up for a good comparison.

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Dan Kennison

facebook: @triPremierBike
http://www.PremierBike.com
http://www.PositionOneSports.com

The owner wanted to get Cervelo's approval because IOS is a large Cervelo dealer and the shop is lending the bike to Kiley for the study.

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

Thank you Dan!

Can you send it to the Go Fund Me so we can keep track of who all has paid?

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

Thanks Dan! Can you send the money to the Go Fund Me?

To keep track so far: Seatpost and Stem - $595

Slowtwitch Dan - $300
dkennison - $195
Myself - $50
Other slowtwitchers donations on Go Fund Me - $

I just spoke to my shop. The seatpost and stem have been ordered! I am bringing the P5-X!

Thank you all for the help!

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

I just donated $100. Looking forward to reading more.

Thank you!

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

Donated.

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ishi no ue ni san nen | Perseverance will win in the end. | Blog | @nebmot | Strava | Instagram |

Thank you!

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

Donated a wee bit as well. Interested to see the results now.

I added $25. I look forward to seeing the results.

Where's the gofundme link? I seem to be the only one who can't find it.


EDIT: Donated.

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------------------------------------------------------------
Any run that doesn't include pooping in someone's front yard is a win.

It's on the first post hyperlinked to the word GoFundMe. Here it is in long form:

https://www.gofundme.com/...tt-bike-aerodynamics

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Matt

Yes.

Thank You! and everyone else!

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

Funded 50$

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—

One other variable that I thought of last night that is almost impossible to account for in tests like this is human bias. Anyone who is an athlete or involved somehow with the business is going to of course have sort of bias. Let's say you were to bring in complete outsiders who know how to conduct aero tests (eg, aerospace), give them the protocol, and completely remove yourself from the equation...you're still not going to completely account for this variable. Even when we look at things objectively, we always have SOME sort of bias in our heads. Maybe we like the color of shape of a certain frame batter or the font used in a logo.

There's a reason why we do double-blinded, if not triple-blinded, trials in the pharmaceutical industry. Even then, it's sometimes difficult to remove everything. Maybe a patient or investigator likes the color of one pill over the other, even if they don't know what is in it.

I know Dan has his own standards, but one thing that would have helped in this situation is to publish your protocol ahead of time, outline all of the bike configurations, and make NO changes to the test once they've been made public (despite all of the comments you might get from others). Every test is going to have it's flaws, but making last minute changes like you are is already introducing more variables and weakening your test results.

Overall, best of luck with the test and look forward to seeing the results, wherever they are published*.

And if you really wanted to be kick-ass, you would have gone about this in a real scientific fashion and had it published in a peer-reviewed publication...;) (and I won't get into bias there)

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"Most of my heroes don't appear on no stamps"
Blog = http://extrememomentum.com|Photos = http://wheelgoodphotos.com

Donated

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-Mike

Vertex Fit Systems (http://www.vertexfitsystems.com) | Bikeworks (http://www.bikeworksma.com) | Russo Racing (http://www.r2tri.com)

Quite sure nothing can beat my setup in aero/price.

You thought wrong

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

Price - that is interesting.

Next time maybe we should test bikes "as sold" by price starting at $3,500. Test all those bikes and the winner is tested against $4,000 bikes as sold etc..,,

That way those bikes that are in the X price catagory but the bike comes with crap wheels, no name tires, place holder seats, 105 Shimano etc.. will demonstrate thier true value vs aero capability.

That would be an interesting comparison. Faster, more features and less expensive.

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Dan Kennison

facebook: @triPremierBike
http://www.PremierBike.com
http://www.PositionOneSports.com

xkcd has the graphical illustration, perhaps this should be displayed on the forum pages ;-)

Surely the $595 is only a maybe expense depending on who ultimately purchases the bike?
They may require the post and/or stem to be cut as much or more than they have been for the test in which case they won't need replacement.

This bike is coming from my shop and the owner of the shop wants a bike back in the condition it was before the testing. Therefore, a new stem and seatpost are required and have already been ordered.

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

Added my $50 to the Go Fund Me

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

So, is all filled or are there donations needed?

Jeroen
Tri-Run.com

Edit; just saw the link, donated $ 150 so just a few bucks away from the goal. Have fun at the tunnel

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Owner at TRIPRO, The Netherlands

The parts for the P5-X have been ordered. You can donate if you want! Thank you!

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

BryanD comes through with the P5-X, and you all deliver a big boost to the funding, with a generous commitments from both Dans and many others. Really pleased with all the support here.

Thank you

I'm in.

Edit; How could I say no to a collaboration endorsed by Kiley, BryanD and Dan?

I threw some beer money towards the fund. Really curious to see how this plays out.

Touche' Jordan; I nominate your entry for Post of the Year!

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DFL > DNF > DNS

Dan,

The question that I would ask myself is " Do I really want to walk that Pacific Crest Trail?"
Or, "Do I want transparency on this website with the potential to make it bigger than ever?"
I am not speaking in your behalf...but if I was you..."I would look myself in the mirror and say that today is the day that I man up"
Let the truth prevail...these individuals are qualified to do this.
Let the chips fall where they will.
The truth is what your audience wants to hear.
Thank you for your donation to their cause and for allowing it to be published on your site.
And thank you for an awesome forum that could be even better.

Man up? What are you a high school football coach??? He's worried about, among other things, legal liability. And his posts on this topic are already his evidence in that potential lawsuit that he publicly expressed healthy skepticism and that he s going to require some level of knowledge and professionalism about this--exactly what I' telling him to do if I were his lawyer. Privately, I suspect he is saying " hell yeah, go for it Kiley!" Are you going to man up and foot the legal bill if things go south for him based upon something he allowed to be published on his site?? That's the question you should ask yourself today.

bravo.
dan has been quite clear the he needs to properly vet the people and the process. and anyone who doesn't understand the legal liability he faces is hopeless on this entire subject.

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http://www.PatGriskusTri.com USAT Certified Race Director
2024 Races: USAT State of CT Age Group Championship/State of CT HS Champs/ CT Club Championship - Sat June 15th (Oly/Du/Sprint) Hopkins Vineyard Tri at Lake Waramaug Saturday July 13th http://www.HopkinsVineyardTri.com

I was thinking they should use you at the human on top of said bikes! Or maybe they can use slowman and you take pics

Can you guys get someone to setup a youtube live session during the testing? A2 has wifi available right?

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blog

Donated, and shared on Facebook. I know this is a late addition but can we do some wheel testing. Everyone wants to know how the new Corsa Speed and Supersonic are aerowise. I am riding Jimmy's Ventum 51 tomorrow for testing. I could potentially save Jimmy the hassle of lugging it up their and just driving. I could also bring new Corsa Speeds, Supersonics, brand new old Supersonic 23mm as well (I have two left), along with HED JET+, and ROVAL CLX 64s.

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Save: $50 on Speed Hound Recovery Boots | $20 on Air Relax| $100 on Normatec| 15% on Most Absorbable Magnesium

Blogs: Best CHEAP Zwift / Bike Trainer Desk | Theragun G3 vs $140 Bivi Percussive Massager | Normatec Pulse 2.0 vs Normatec Pulse | Speed Hound vs Normatec | Air Relax vs Normatec | Q1 2018 Blood Test Results | | Why HED JET+ Is The BEST value wheelset

you wouldn't really be able to see very much. there are a few screens in the control room but you can't go into the testing area unless it's between runs. a phone/tablet wouldn't really be able to capture much perspective in the control room i don't think.

If you do that you should add the TTs to the mix as well.

I have some TTs as well but it is really about hitting up KIley, Brian, and Heath.

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Save: $50 on Speed Hound Recovery Boots | $20 on Air Relax| $100 on Normatec| 15% on Most Absorbable Magnesium

Blogs: Best CHEAP Zwift / Bike Trainer Desk | Theragun G3 vs $140 Bivi Percussive Massager | Normatec Pulse 2.0 vs Normatec Pulse | Speed Hound vs Normatec | Air Relax vs Normatec | Q1 2018 Blood Test Results | | Why HED JET+ Is The BEST value wheelset

Right, but I don't see the point in testing old (new) supersonics as you can't get them anymore. test the TTs instead if they agree to test some tires. TT vs SS vs VCS

A2 does have a robot that can roll into the tunnel and do that. But it's a tight timeline and we've never used it int he 100's of hours we've spent there. Probably not going to break out another unknown variable next week.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Just a point of clarity...there is a ton of crap in the forum based on misinformation. I would not call it fake news, but certainly "misleading posting". When Slowman says "publish" does he mean a posting in the bowels of the forum or a front page article. I am assuming for the latter only he and his staff can do it. Which leaves only a posting as the possibilty for Kiley, with whatever data him and his crew glean.

If they post the data, and methodology used, and leave out conclusions, that SHOULD be fair game. Just let the readers and other posters interpret their data and methodology. Heck if Herbert happens to be there and take pictures, maybe it could be a "data only" collaboration. No conclusions....just state methodology and post the raw data. Then we can crowd source conclusion interpretation based on raw data capture. Then everyone can have their 2 cents on synthesis and conclusion making

That's not a problem but it is a problem to do it on Tuesday. We've got the tunnel booked for some stuff on Wednesday and have some time.

You figure out how many hours you want and who's paying and we're there.

Just let us know ASAP. The behind the scenes work for testing is time consuming and we're running out of that consumable time.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

The only reason would be for a baseline since we have some testing from them before.

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---

Save: $50 on Speed Hound Recovery Boots | $20 on Air Relax| $100 on Normatec| 15% on Most Absorbable Magnesium

Blogs: Best CHEAP Zwift / Bike Trainer Desk | Theragun G3 vs $140 Bivi Percussive Massager | Normatec Pulse 2.0 vs Normatec Pulse | Speed Hound vs Normatec | Air Relax vs Normatec | Q1 2018 Blood Test Results | | Why HED JET+ Is The BEST value wheelset

Man Geoff still uses an AOL account for his email, might be spotty

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My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com

There are going to be a lot of people in the control room already (N=8-10). We've been restricting access to the tunnel in our past several sessions there and I do not see that changing. This time we'll probably be restricting where in the control room people can access bc Heath and I each have our favorite work areas there in front of the screens. Too many people get in the control room get in the way of our workflow if everyone is all over the place.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

yea..i get that. i was saying a live video feed would probably not be possible.

Hmm, well conceivably we have an:

- Enve 7 (I believe based on thread here)
- I could bring HED JET+ 6 and Roval CLX 64

I could bring 23mm Supersonic, 23mm Corsa Speed.

Just shot you a DM via FB regarding phone number to discuss.

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Save: $50 on Speed Hound Recovery Boots | $20 on Air Relax| $100 on Normatec| 15% on Most Absorbable Magnesium

Blogs: Best CHEAP Zwift / Bike Trainer Desk | Theragun G3 vs $140 Bivi Percussive Massager | Normatec Pulse 2.0 vs Normatec Pulse | Speed Hound vs Normatec | Air Relax vs Normatec | Q1 2018 Blood Test Results | | Why HED JET+ Is The BEST value wheelset

But who's paying?

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"One Line Robert"

Thanks for the donation and share.

As Brian said, Tuesday is maxed. We have six bikes to test in less than 9 hours. We only have a little bit of wiggle room especially assuming there will be some small time snags with equipment swaps and such.

I would love to know the answer to the Vittoria tire aerodynamics question as much as the next armchair tire enthusiast. Hope you can get it together for Wednesday. I can offer GPTTs, 4kS2s, Vittoria G+s, or Enve 7.8 SES hoops (disc or rim) to the process.

donated a bit. would be interesting to see the results.

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Next races on the schedule: none at the moment

Very chuffed this is happening.

Just donated the pittance I have left after taking the kids on holiday for a week. Look forward to the outcome.

I'm planning on doing social media the day of the testing. What all do you guys want to see?

Video from the tunnel?
Kiley on the bike?
Jimmy's wild hair?
Pictures of all the bikes?
Interviews?
Live video?

Let me know! I'll be meeting Kiley on Monday.

I will also create a thread for the testing and will update it with links to videos and pictures of the testing.

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

i'd really just like for you to stream the inevitably awkward first meeting.

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@adamwfurlong

I'd appreciate a video of you, Kiley, Stover and Dan holding hands and singing "We are the World".

Scott

Damn, you beat me to it.

Great minds think alike!

Scott

Along the same lines, I'd like a photo of you guys when you meet doing an air armwrestle with your sleeves rolled up like Arnie and Carl Weathers in Predator.

Hahahahhahahahhah Kiley and I talk pretty frequently so it won't be awkward.

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

There's a chance both BryanD and Thomas Gerlach will be crashing in my hotel room. If that happens, those two will be sharing the second double bed. Talk about awkward.

Can you autograph a P5x poster and give to Kiley for me? I'd like to frame it.

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"One Line Robert"

"Sorry son, you can't have dessert for this entire vacation. I need to save the money to donate to some guy on the internet testing air flowing around bikes"

"ALL"?

http://www.tririg.com/...omega_whitepaper.pdf

It's a good point -- questioning the "all" statement. Jordan did mention (elsewhere) -- and I don't think he'd mind my saying it -- that it wasn't "all". He noted Josh Poertner and Tom A. as good examples of folks who use error bars in their reporting and publications. He missed accreditation of yours, but thank you for sharing the additional piece to add to the conversation.

Wow, you really are on a short leash, aren't you?

With the new (old) kileyay back, I am now interested. :) Donated.

SBRcoffee wrote:

With the new (old) kileyay back, I am now interested. :) Donated.

Whose idea was to bring Pubes back in the form of the old kileyay. The entertainment factor around here dropped 10x


OK, at least can we get a "What I did while Pubes was banned from ST: my aero testing in the real world at Oceanside and associated race report"

Did he go up to Slowman's ranch after Oceanside to get a sermon on how to behave? I think this is a mandatory requirement for any proper STer going to Oceanside (not the sermon part, just go and hang out with slowman's dogs and horses).

You've obviously have never seen my biceps. They are the World's Most Aero Biceps (TM & patent pending) part of the reason I have ridden sub 4:59 on < 189w in an IM.

You don't work hard in the gym to get biceps like this! (copyright)

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

DD speaks the truth - I've seen better arms on a record player.

Mine are even more aero, but that's because they're more 404 Firecrest shaped.
His are like 101's.

I'm not in the market for a new whip, but I am interested in the results of this testing.
Assuming The Great Leader allows us to read it here.

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float , hammer , and jog

 My sincere apologies if this has been covered somewhere and I'm just not seeing it. I'm not terribly studious at scouring these forums. But I'm curious, why is Dimond not a part of this test?
With the drastic difference between the P5X frame shape versus the Dimond, it seems like it would make sense. No?

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Salton Sea Triathlon Club
“I swim to get to the bike. I run because nobody gives a shit about aquabike.”

I'll just never understand why some call this "the divorce sport"
😂

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Salton Sea Triathlon Club
“I swim to get to the bike. I run because nobody gives a shit about aquabike.”

A number of reasons:

First, Dimond was made aware of this test -- not by me, but by someone affiliated with them -- and they elected not to participate in terms of making equipment available. By contrast, Ventum and Premier offered equipment and substantial assistance setting up the equipment. Diamondback also came through in the clutch and prioritized deliverty of equipment (with just days to spare) and continue to provide intellectual support.

Others did offer to lend Dimond frames, but the only size that worked for me had issues. It had the old 3T fork, and if you believe Dimond's own data and claims, the Marquise frame and Super Fork (and stem cover) are massively faster -- 15+ watts faster. Using this old model would be tantamount to testing a classic P3 because we couldn't get a P5. Plus, this bike needed a new, longer seat post to hit my saddle height. That just wasn't in the budget.

Finally, we could not test everything as there are only so many hours in a day and so many dollars here.

We were lucky to obtain the bikes we have and grateful for a strong and representative slate.

-The Cervelo P5/P5-X need no introduction, especially given that the P5 is perhaps the most broadly tested frame in the last five years.

-The Ventum is widely rumored (on these boards) to be very very fast, and with test results to back it up -- which makes sense, given how fast the Lotus has tested and how relevant it has remained aerodynamically for decades.

-The Premier Tactical has no peer in price value at the high end of triathlon bikes, assuming it is fast enough to warrant its price point, which we want to find out.

-The Felt B series is old and slow -- or is it really, when you put a fast bar and fast brakes and set it up like your race depended on it (as I do)?

-And the Diamondback Andean is the other disc brake time trial bike that is claimed to be faster than the P5. Are disc brakes slow? Probably, but nobody really knows. The P5-X and the Andean will be the first thru axle bicycles to be tested at A2 -- as we speak, the team is working on fashioning a part to facilitate the assessment of these seminal bikes.

The Dimond and the Canyon were on deck and in the hole, respectively. Excluding them was no oversight, I assure you, but the product of finite resources and logistical tenabality.

Thank you for such a thorough reply! Makes complete sense. Was hoping to see the Ventum beat it. ;)

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Salton Sea Triathlon Club
“I swim to get to the bike. I run because nobody gives a shit about aquabike.”

So a 4:58 then?

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--Chris

as you broached the subject of bike sizing just above, i'm sure this is somewhere if i look for it, but i can't find it. what ARE the set ups? maybe these are in my in box, in an email brian sent me. but i'm not at my in box (i'm away from my office and i have client side email archiving).

one of the things i'm keenly interested in - which i think is different in scope than what heath and brian typically do to the best of my knowledge - is precisely how these bikes are set up. how did you go about choosing size, front end spec, extension shape, crank length, wheels, hydration and so forth.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

It's the right question. The answers are in your inbox, but I'm happy to expand upon them a bit and share with the community and public in advance. The report will have every component and setup annotated and delineated, and pictures of each test rig will be offered from the front, side, back, aerial, etc.

Broadly, the principal goal from the outset was to align as many variables as possible. I'll vomit up a lot of detail here for those who are inclined, but the tl;dr is that we thought of everything and have aligned almost everything as best as is practically possible.

Size: I feel comfortable riding anywhere between 560 and 575 on the stack, and anywhere between 465-480 on the reach. Because I am the rider on board, the sizes of each bike needed to allow for these ranges and needed to work vis-a-vis each other. This wasn't very ambiguous, because for most of these bikes -- the Andean, the Felt, the P5, the Ventum, and the Tactical -- only one size exists that worked or one size that worked without material modifications (like hacking the Tactical's extension placement, which was considered before we pushed back the test date) or huge amounts of spacer stack. I'm 5'8" 145 lbs and ride aggressively -- there simply aren't that many bikes that fit me in multiple sizes when I'm at the floor of 700c geo designs. The P5-X is unique -- it's one of the only bikes that I know of that fits me in its stock form in three sizes. Luckily the medium is what was made available and the medium is what makes the most sense to me. I'm at the bottom of the stack envelope there in the lowest configuration. It's the size I would buy were I to win the lottery and be able to afford the P5-X.

Despite my best efforts, prescribing final stack and reach values is a work in progress. I thought we had aligned on 565, but the P5 is at 570, so the reality is that we are going to need to bring the other bikes up to meet the highest (lowest?) common denominator in stack. I think we are good hitting 475-480 reach in all sizes.

In sum, the fit was partly input and partly output, but ultimately the key was to make sure everything was the same for the coordinates that matter. We have an x/y tool from SICI -- thanks Gary from Purely Custom coming through here -- which will true up any discrepancies between the fits.

Front End Spec: Every front end is stock except for the Felt B series, which has the Enve bar. The Enve bar is one of two bars available that allows me to hit my stack on that bike -- and both require undermount configuration. The non Enve one is no longer produced, and I have cracked two of them at that clamp, and ended up selling the third to fund the Enve purchase.

With Premier, P5-6, and Tactical, there is no other sensible option, and I couldn't think of a reason to swap the bar on the Ventum.

There are a number of after market bars that will fit the Andean, all of which I considered, but all of them were going to be inferior than the stock Corsair. It's hard to describe, but the way the stock Andean stem flairs out renders most bars non-starters, unless you want to take a hacksaw to it (like Jordan). The Andean's bento storage and hydration integration and the junction between the stock stem and the steerer/top tube are unique, and while you could use a third party bar/stem combo like the Zipp Vuka Stealth, it would look like garbage and likely be a dog aerodynamically -- which is also why Jordan is running the Vuka Bull with the hacked up stock stem, I presume.

Pads/Cups: Even though you didn't ask, others have and I wanted to touch on this. We are also trying to strike a balance between normalizing the shape of the pad and using the pad that provides for the closest match in reach and pad width. For example, the Andean pads are the stock Corsair ones, while the Felt B series pads are my preferred Profile Design pads. The incongruity here is acceptable because we think pad x/y is more important than totally consistent cup/pad architecture, as long as the frontal area of these cups/pads are quite similar. In this case, we needed to use the Corsair stock cups to hit my reach, but aerodynamically we think there will be no difference, as the shapes are almost identical to the PD version. We have multiple pairs of PD pads/cups and a few other options like them (with more holes) to facilitate equivalent setups on this.

Extensions: My preferred extensions are the Zipp Evo 110 Carbons. I don't know if they're fast, because I haven't dutifully tested, but they're comfortable. With the undermount setup on the Felt, they put my hands in a comfortable and eye-ball aero position. Because of how they are designed and how you can cut them, they are also a good choice for standardizing hand position across the board.

Anyways, all bikes except the Premier Tactical -- which has proprietary extensions/clamps -- will have these extensions. The cockpit length on all bikes will be identical. The rise above the pad will be as close as possible, given the obvious constraint of where the actual extension clamp sits on the front end in question. Even while the Tactical extensions will have a slightly different shape, we think the length and rise can be normalized to acceptable tolerances.

Cranksets: All 165mm 52/36 across the board. This was non negotiable. P5-X and P5 came with 170s -- non starter, so we have gone to considerable effort to swap BBs, etc. Position wise, I am sensitive to even minor changes in crank length, and of course a change in crank length changes the position. It's hard to imagine ring spec meaningfully impacts aerodynamics, but better safe than sorry here. We have four 165 52/36 cranks at our disposal, and all bikes are being set up to accept GXP.

Wheels: There is only one firm in the industry that is producing an optimized disc brake rim and optimized rim brake rim of same depth, product spec, etc., and that's Enve. We are using the Enve 7.8 SES rim and Enve 7.8 SES disc. I have effort to acquire these, including selling my Zipps, even though I think the Zipps are superior.

Hydration/Storage: I think you saved the most challenging for last. This question has plagued me. I mean that literally -- I woke up with nightmares about second and third bottle setups one night last week.

Garmin and flat kit will be carried as I do/would (with very little aero penalty, presumably) for those bikes that have no accommodation in the design.

But the hydration issue is murkier. I am setting up front hydration on the Felt B Series, Andean, P5, P5-X, and Tactical either the way the manufacturer has recommended or the way I would, which are congruous here. Ventum's design is such that no additional hydration is necessary -- or for Ventum, advisable aerodynamically, even though they say that the BTA impact can swing either way depending on the individual.

Rear hydration is an even more challenging issue. As desert dude noted, Cervelo had problems setting up identical BTS systems from bike to bike (or did so in cases where it made little sense, like on the Ventum). The grimmer reality is that BTS setups can either help or hurt from bike to bike based on individual elements like slackness/steepness of saddle position; type of saddle; effective seat tube angle of the specific bike; protrusion and/or shape of the seat post; and even width of the rider's hips. So by tossing on rear hydration to all of these bikes (Ventum excepted), you don't actually know whether the BTS setup is helping or hurting, aerodynamically. You wouldn't actually know that unless you tested every single bike and setup as a kind of tournament, which we don't have the resources to facilitate (manufacturers don't either).

We are damned if we do, damned if we don't on second bottle/BTS inclusion. If we include it, we are introducing noise into answering the question of which bike is fastest. We are introducing a variable of which we don't know the impact. If we don't, we aren't lending support to the reality of the most typical long course setups. Ventum has a point about "race trim", after all.

The compromise goes like this. We hope to have time to test a limited sweep of BTS setups -- maybe only on two bikes. Perhaps we will have time for -5,0,5 but the hope is to have a full sweep for two bikes and two different BTS setups. We will simply not have time to test BTS setups on every bike. It's not happening without a serious donation. Failing that, and even possibly in addition to that, Brian and Heath have offered to let me scavenge their historical (anonymous) data from Aero Camp riders who have A/B/C tested this variable. Similar to error bars, we would inject into the model "BTS bars" if you will. So every bike except Ventum would get a range of CdA values both positive and negative by which a second or third bottle may impact their aerodynamics. I can work to make this more of a weighted average, or, if there is statistically significant data available, to identify covariates or explanatory variables to better apply these ranges on an individual basis. For instance, females (with larger, child bearing hips) often test better with two bottles BTA than the Stover's of the world. Sebastian Kienle runs two bottles and Frodo runs one -- do you think that's informed by chance or data?

Sorry to vomit words here, but I had a lot to say about this and I know there are at least a few nerds around here who are going to be into every last detail. I also didn't have time to proofread, so hope this makes sense.

Thanks again, everyone, for your support.

Good luck !

Did you decide on a minimum flat kit for all bikes?

Tactical, P5X and Andrean have flat/spare built in to the design....as Ventum has built in hydration.

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Dan Kennison

facebook: @triPremierBike
http://www.PremierBike.com
http://www.PositionOneSports.com

Great summary,

My 2c is that bikes should be tested as purchased. IE no hydration, no flat kit....if you want to draw your own conclusions on how you set things up, relative hip width etc then buy the bike you feel is best and go test those "INDIVIDUAL" set ups for yourself....my personal opinion and all that.

One question I have is BB drop, IE relative rider height to ground all else being equal. I honestly don't know how much it matters but if you are riding 165's then theoretically a lower BB drop is better.

Best of luck,

my 2c

i think what you want to do on aerobars is normalize for width. if 80 percent of the drag is you, then variations of "you" will test louder than variations within the bike. so, i hear you on the bars that come stock on the bikes, but if one bar doesn't allow you to go wide and another does, i think you have to remain exactly the same in elbow width, even if it's not comfortable (even if you wish the width was wider).

you're going to need to take care and absolutely MEASURE your elbow width, bike to bike, and also stance width. there will be a little variation in stance width, i don't think you need necessarily to change cranks on every bike, but you ought to at least note it.

i bring up hydration because if you said, "no hydration!" that probably penalizes the ventum. but if you put hydration on the bikes, you risk penalizing the P5X because of one of its singular goals, which is not to host the most aerodynamic hydration, rather the hydration that most people resort to most of the time.

thorny issue.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I'll say this; I come to Slowtwitch for information and entertainment. This thread and the upcoming Shootout deliver both.

You've done a good job introducing a healthy aspect of skepticism into how I view the information we receive from the industry. I think you've called out more than one naked emperor. Ironically, Dan's initial skepticism and subsequent endorsement of your project added the credibility necessary for the Shootout to gain traction. I hope I am witnessing an evolution at Slowtwitch towards this type of collaboration and away from the vitriol that generally prevents innovation and progress.

Best of luck Tuesday! Do your best to remain transparent and objective. I trust BryanD will keep us entertained and you will keep us informed.

Scott

So, here is a thought. Have you considered making the Shootout an annual and official event for Slowtwitch?

You could form a committee of users to define the specs (hydration for example), invite the manufacturers to optimize their products around those specs and have this forum's members finance the independent testing. I know that is easier said than done, but wanted to share the thought while you are here. Seems like it could be a game-changer.


Scott

I assume for the B2 you're going to run the Torhans bottle all the time no matter what (even if it's just called a "flat kit?") I've never seen anyone not use it, since, like the Cervelo P4, it's faster with that bottle.

I think your compromise is reasonable. I just spent like 40 minutes trying to come up with something brilliant. But there are dragons and snakes lurking in every option. I

But I think it can be stipulated that it's possible to set up a BTS in such a way that it's nearly aero neutral. So I don't think much is learned by spending a ton of time actually doing so in a perfectly normalized, verified way. For transparency I think you just have to explicitly call out the Ventum's results with asterisks highlighting its tremendous hydration flexibility. Everyone already knows this, but just to avoid appearance of bias against Ventum. Normalizing around the Ventrum's integrated capacity for the other 4 bikes just adds too much risk and cost. (IMO)

Dan - I'm not understanding your last post with respect to hydration et. al.- but also in a larger sense.

We definitely need to normalize the bikes from a geometry perspective but I don't want to normalize the design out of the bikes. Example: My elbow cups are a low profile but they are comfortable - just because my competitor can't figure out how to make smaller profile elbow pads comfortable I don't want to normalize for that. Position yes I agree.

One reason I think we are testing and comparing bikes is because each manufacturer has designed a bike that they feel answers complete system issues better than the alternative offers. In this test "better" is defined as more aero - other consideration should and will be considered by consumers.

Fit, comfort, efficiency (aero), hydration, storage, price.

If PremierBike changes the extension (for the test) that we spent X hours designing for comfort and aero in conjunction with the best hydration for our bike, I don't want to normalize it - just say its faster or slower and we like it or we hate it. We made a calculated bet on hand position, comfort and aero-drag.

I don't want Ventum to add a hydration bottle between the arms because everyone else needs too - they solved that issue and may benefit aero wise because of it.

If Diamondback and Cervelo (P5X) think saving watts by putting things inside the bike [flat kit, nutrition etc.] is a good idea they weighed the trade off and may have a weight and high yaw disadvantage for the mass; which can be evaluated. The Tactical spent a lot of time to find out what hydration worked with our front end (FC-35 saves our athletes 3.2 Watts vs no hydration at all.) Tactical also knows that the rear storage saves 1.2 Watts while storing tubes, CO2, tubes, tire levers etc. I want the Ventum to put a flat kit somewhere. We know the Cervelo P5X and Andrean have storage for that.

All the bikes have advantages and some :-) may have disadvantages but that is what this is all about.

We can weigh positives in many ways. Price, Comfort, Aero- Drag, Features,

Stack, reach, elbow pad width, seat height - yes, but innovation not sure the best way to highlight that and not Frankenstein the bikes. How about as sold next time? I'm very comfortable in that space.

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Dan Kennison

facebook: @triPremierBike
http://www.PremierBike.com
http://www.PositionOneSports.com

i personally think in this age where "integration" is such a feature of many of the latest bikes you have to give them a chance to show the benefit of that. and it is true that most of us ride our bikes with some water, some food and some repair kit so to test otherwise is to fail to replicate the real world. what you need to avoid is the cervelo style taping gels on the outside, next to the integrated bento box ;) decide on a standard amount of gear to carry eg what one of you took on your last long course race, and then mount that as well as you can on each bike using whatever features it provides, according to common ST wisdom. this does introduce more variables but otherwise you're not answering any meaningful question. surely one of the key questions here is to see whether a fully loaded P5X is really faster than an equally loaded P5?

i can also see that point that BTA and BTS bottles are more or less aero-neutral so it only adds possible noise to use them but that leaves P5X, ventum and andean fans claiming to have the upper hand no matter what the results and nobody knowing whether that level of integration really has benefit to the informed triathlete

I am hardly an expert in these matters but this approach makes much more sense to me; sure it introduces more variables but those are the variables that each company choose to focus on (or ignore) in designing not only the frame but also storage and hydration (or lack thereof)

Please weigh each bike, as tested.

Thanks

what i'm saying is that we need to neutralize the effect of the rider. if your bike allows the rider to ride with very wide elbows, and that's how he wants to ride, and chooses that option, that penalizes your bike if other bikes don't allow for a wide elbow position. their limitation would in this case actually help them win the test, not because the bike is more aero, it forces the rider to ride more aero (regardless of how that affects his power, breathing, comfort).

i just think the rider should ride in the exact same position on every bike.

as for hydration, ventum has a really great, really stylish system. but it has a limitation. riders who rely on bottles along the way would have to put a cage somewhere on the ventum. this is the conundrum. the P5X (as an example) is optimized for one style of hydration. the ventum for another. and the kit to change a flat is (as you point out) another element. how do you not penalize a P5X or an andean if you don't place the flat repair kit somewhere on all of the bikes?

these are just the issues that make the protocol and decisions for this kind of test tricky for the folks producing it.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman