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Tell me why I shouldn't dump my Cervelo P5
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I have long been a Cervelo fan boy. I bought two P3 aluminum, two P3Cs, and an SLC-SL over the years and loved them all.

So coming back to the sport, I didn't hesitate to pick up a P5. You can set me straight, but there is a lot that is wrong with this bike:

1) The bottom bracket. This should be renamed "BDim" or "BBWrong"
I bought the P5 used and noticed immediately that the BB was grindy and awful. So I had it replaced in what my LBS described as an excruciating procedure. Here's what the seller (a very big Cervelo dealer) emailed me:

"Press fit bottom brackets (BBs) tend to wear out fairly quickly. Getting even a year out of a pressfit BB is considered a good lifespan...All pressfit bottom brackets need to be hammered out of the frame and can be quite challenging to remove."

So it lasts less than a year and has to be hammered out of the frame! Great design Cervelo! I've had square taper Shimano BBs that lasted for a decade and a Phil Wood one that might outlive me. Now I have a BB that lasts less than a year and costs $50 of labor each time it has to be replaced.

Oh, and I didn't even mention all the problems people have BBright bottom brackets chronic creaking. And I haven't measured the bearing drag, but I would be you're losing at least a watt there.

On its web site, Cervelo claims that "BBright" doesn't change the Q-Factor. That is a half-truth. if you use the Rotor cranks which are dead flat, you get a Q-factor of 153, which is pretty bad already. If you use any other cranks, you end up with a ridiculously wide stance. On the P5, my Cobb cranks yield a Q-factor of nearly 160. For comparison, my Campy cranks on a P3C were only 131. You don't have to be a wind-tunnel genius to know that having your legs 30mm further out is going to increase drag in a major way.

"BBright" has to be the worst bicycle "innovation" I've seen in decades. Even worse than disk brakes on a TT bike. All this BS about better stiffness merely insults our intelligence. The average person riding these bikes is generating maybe 150-250 watts at a cadence of 80-90. Do the math: that is a tiny amount of torque. For TT/triathlon bike design priorities, stiffness should rank about #124. Sacrificing anything for more stiffness is absurd.

2) Hydraulic brakes. It's a TT bike for Chrissakes. You're not going to ride crits with it, so the brakes don't need to be super modulating pieces of high-tech. They need to be easy-to-adjust and easy to swap pads on, so that you can switch from training wheels to carbon wheels easily. These brakes are none of that. Oh and I'd really like to try different aero-bars, but the thought of having to screw with hydraulics definitely nixes that. No Morf bars, no aero-or-die, no U.S.E. Tula. The brakes condemn you to inferior aero bars.

3) The inferior aero bars. I'm probably going to tunnel test these. But one look tells me they're dogs. What a rube-goldbergian design. You actually have to take the whole bar off just to adjust/tighten the extensions. Give me a break.


So, it looks like I'm probably going back to an older vintage P3C. It seems unlikely that the various aero improvements of the P5 would overcome the extra drag of the ridiculous q-factor and the poor aerobars.

My latest book: "Out of the Melting Pot, Into the Fire" is on sale on Amazon and at other online and local booksellers
Last edited by: jens: Jan 29, 17 18:33
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Re: Tell me why I shouldn't dump my Cervelo P5 [jens] [ In reply to ]
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Get a Omni
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Re: Tell me why I shouldn't dump my Cervelo P5 [jens] [ In reply to ]
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It's what I did...found a new 2012 frameset from RA cycles...love it! One other benefit...I dropped 2 lbs in switching back to older P3 too...
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Re: Tell me why I shouldn't dump my Cervelo P5 [jens] [ In reply to ]
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what in the hell are you talking about taking the bars off to tighten adjust extensions?? they are a collet design out in the open in front of the basebar. ok , hold on which bars do your p5 have? I assumed the p5-6 aduro, if so my comment stands, if not, then I have no clue which bars you have

bb.....don't let lbs install, learn to do it yourself and surprise, if you don't use a plastic one, they might last a long time. suggest a threaded pf 30 ala wheels manufacturing or a host of other s and then picj the bearing you want to use in the cups, ie hawk racing and you wont notice a whole lot of seal drag.

you don't have to use cranks with such a large q factor, my quarqs are 147ish. yeah not 130 but you can use standard shimano cranks if you want and they are not 160 IIRC

you don't have to use maguras. sell and get something else and then use tulas or whatever you choose. if you say you don't want to do any of this, then why did you buy the bike in the first place? yes I know you are fast and it would probably be good to have you on my 50+ TTT in Louisville end of june :)

ps I put my maguras on my p3 then took them off without racing and replaced with omegas. I do have an aduro on my p3...cheap and I can get the position I want so not too bad
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Re: Tell me why I shouldn't dump my Cervelo P5 [jeffp] [ In reply to ]
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jeffp wrote:
what in the hell are you talking about taking the bars off to tighten adjust extensions?? they are a collet design out in the open in front of the basebar. ok , hold on which bars do your p5 have? I assumed the p5-6 aduro, if so my comment stands, if not, then I have no clue which bars you have


p5-3, since I need UCI legality. Bars are 3T Aura Pro. Definitely not collet.

jeffp wrote:
if you say you don't want to do any of this, then why did you buy the bike in the first place?


Based on previous experience, I thought Cervelo could be trusted to produce consistently good products.

jeffp wrote:

yes I know you are fast and it would probably be good to have you on my 50+ TTT in Louisville end of june :)


correction: I was fast. Now, in the words of the immortal Kurgan Gringioni, I'm a "fatty masters" racer. I was top notch at TTT until I learned that the objective was to finish as a group, rather than take out the other guys along the course by braking unexpectedly.

My latest book: "Out of the Melting Pot, Into the Fire" is on sale on Amazon and at other online and local booksellers
Last edited by: jens: Jan 29, 17 20:40
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Re: Tell me why I shouldn't dump my Cervelo P5 [jens] [ In reply to ]
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I would be a bigger fatty master than you most likely

yeah, aura pro suck, IMO you don't want those for your events

my first 4 person TTT, I caused Druber to get dropped(apparently my lack of watts went too hard, next year he stayed on:) :) braking in a TTT, what the..???

keep the TTT in mind,
just open brakes so wide you cant use them

ps...I really dislike the BB rear brake gets gritty fast. kind of glad my p5 ran into a car and was replaced with a p3
Last edited by: jeffp: Jan 29, 17 20:44
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Re: Tell me why I shouldn't dump my Cervelo P5 [jens] [ In reply to ]
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OK, so you're focusing on the negatives / limitations of your current set-up, and ignoring the possibilities the P5 has.

Firstly, re the BB, not much you can do about the Q factor, but I had my LBS replace the BBRight with Alu cups when the first bearing went bad... I then bought a BB puller / installer tool and now replace the BB30 bearings (leaving the PF cups in the frame) once a year myself. I could put in expensive / fast CeramicSpeed or similar bearing, but generally just buy Enduro BB30 steel bearings which cost me like $10 to replace annually. It's a 10min job.

Second, re the brakes and aerobar, the best part about the P-5 ) is that it has standard center-mount brake mounts and normal 31.8mm steerer tube, meaning you can use ANY standard stem/aerobar and brakes!

Don't like the Maguras (I personally LOVE them)? Well then take them off and put on standard cable brakes. They wont be quite as aero as the Magura up front, but the Tri-rig Omega will probably be just as close! And since you have the P5-3 model you don't need to worry about the front brake covers. Use whatever brakes you want!

Don't like the Aura aerobar (admittedly quite a low end bar...) well take it off and use something better. I use a 3T Ventus II on my P5, but not sure that's UCI legal...

Tri-Rig did one of their own P5 builds a few years ago - try searching and look at that for inspiration and some other options....
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Re: Tell me why I shouldn't dump my Cervelo P5 [jens] [ In reply to ]
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I'm fascinated by your post mostly for the fact that you have such precise knowledge of the q factor of the bike but seemed to have little idea otherwise what you were getting yourself into! ;)

I have a p5-6, love the magura brakes...they are quite adjustable in my opinion...the allen key in the levers gives me enough adjustment for the two sets of wheels I routinely switch between. But if I did use wheels where this didn't work, I can totally understand where you are coming from too.

Press fit BBs are common...mine has been sweet without any issues after 4 years of use. I do think this is a LBS issue...I found this is one way of telling how skilled a mechanic is. I had a friend who rides a BB30 and it would squeak forever...constant replacement and manufacturer trying to help. Took it to my shop, installed a new one, bang...it's worked correctly ever since.

At the end of the day, get the bike you love! Personally, with the right components, the P5 could be it, but if the q factor is the deal breaker...then you know what you need to do! Happy shopping and riding.
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Re: Tell me why I shouldn't dump my Cervelo P5 [jens] [ In reply to ]
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its always better to do your homework than being a fan boy ...



jens wrote:

I have long been a Cervelo fan boy. I bought two P3 aluminum, two P3Cs, and an SLC-SL over the years and loved them all.

So coming back to the sport, I didn't hesitate to pick up a P5. You can set me straight, but there is a lot that is wrong with this bike:

1) The bottom bracket. This should be renamed "BDim" or "BBWrong"
I bought the P5 used and noticed immediately that the BB was grindy and awful. So I had it replaced in what my LBS described as an excruciating procedure. Here's what the seller (a very big Cervelo dealer) emailed me:

"Press fit bottom brackets (BBs) tend to wear out fairly quickly. Getting even a year out of a pressfit BB is considered a good lifespan...All pressfit bottom brackets need to be hammered out of the frame and can be quite challenging to remove."

So it lasts less than a year and has to be hammered out of the frame! Great design Cervelo! I've had square taper Shimano BBs that lasted for a decade and a Phil Wood one that might outlive me. Now I have a BB that lasts less than a year and costs $50 of labor each time it has to be replaced.

Oh, and I didn't even mention all the problems people have BBright bottom brackets chronic creaking. And I haven't measured the bearing drag, but I would be you're losing at least a watt there.

On its web site, Cervelo claims that "BBright" doesn't change the Q-Factor. That is a half-truth. if you use the Rotor cranks which are dead flat, you get a Q-factor of 153, which is pretty bad already. If you use any other cranks, you end up with a ridiculously wide stance. On the P5, my Cobb cranks yield a Q-factor of nearly 160. For comparison, my Campy cranks on a P3C were only 131. You don't have to be a wind-tunnel genius to know that having your legs 30mm further out is going to increase drag in a major way.

"BBright" has to be the worst bicycle "innovation" I've seen in decades. Even worse than disk brakes on a TT bike. All this BS about better stiffness merely insults our intelligence. The average person riding these bikes is generating maybe 150-250 watts at a cadence of 80-90. Do the math: that is a tiny amount of torque. For TT/triathlon bike design priorities, stiffness should rank about #124. Sacrificing anything for more stiffness is absurd.

2) Hydraulic brakes. It's a TT bike for Chrissakes. You're not going to ride crits with it, so the brakes don't need to be super modulating pieces of high-tech. They need to be easy-to-adjust and easy to swap pads on, so that you can switch from training wheels to carbon wheels easily. These brakes are none of that. Oh and I'd really like to try different aero-bars, but the thought of having to screw with hydraulics definitely nixes that. No Morf bars, no aero-or-die, no U.S.E. Tula. The brakes condemn you to inferior aero bars.

3) The inferior aero bars. I'm probably going to tunnel test these. But one look tells me they're dogs. What a rube-goldbergian design. You actually have to take the whole bar off just to adjust/tighten the extensions. Give me a break.


So, it looks like I'm probably going back to an older vintage P3C. It seems unlikely that the various aero improvements of the P5 would overcome the extra drag of the ridiculous q-factor and the poor aerobars.
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Re: Tell me why I shouldn't dump my Cervelo P5 [jens] [ In reply to ]
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P5 is still the fastest frame on the market*.

All your issues are super easy to address and I've done it on mine.

1) I got the C-Bear sleeved BB to 24mm. No creak, no problem. Wheels Manufacturing do one too.

2) Get rid of them. I'm using a TriRig Omega X on the P5-3 fork and my mate used Sugru to fit the cover on the P5-6 fork (everything I've seen suggests any difference between the forks is marginal at best).

3) Get rid of them. I'm using Tulas, my mate I mentioned is going for the Alpha X. I'd wager my setup is no slower than the X-Low would have been.

*I'd include the P3C and P4 on that list.
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Re: Tell me why I shouldn't dump my Cervelo P5 [jens] [ In reply to ]
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I can replace a press fit faster than any thread in bottom bracket.
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Re: Tell me why I shouldn't dump my Cervelo P5 [jens] [ In reply to ]
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1) Your P5 is a great TT bike - the gains to other newer models either from Cervelo or others is marginal. Minor tweaks to body position or changing location of a bottle on the bike have bigger impact +/- than the frame itself has.

2) Press-fit BB's are a pain. I agree with the the other more learned observations in your post - they make almost no sense. The sense they do make is - lower weight and lower cost. So it's a win/win for the bike manufacturer there!

We are big Cervelo users in out house - 4 Cervelo bikes in use. Our first experience with the Press-Fit was when my wife bought the newer version of the S3 two years ago. I was shocked when she burned through the brand new BB and bearings in a couple months of riding and racing ( she road races at the elite level). I have an older R3 with standard outboard BB bearings. This set up lasts a VERY long time. I usually get at least two years of riding out of the BB - not a couple of months!

My first thought about this was - good grief. Pro Tour mechanics must have to change the BB's on these bikes almost after every race! That's fine for Pro Tour riders, but what about mortal folks? Our Velofix mechanic recommended either the Wheels Mfg or Praxis BB's. Both these solutions, give more overall stability to the BB/bearings complex - so bearing life is extended. They may not stop the dreaded creaking, but at least the bearings will last longer.


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
Last edited by: Fleck: Jan 30, 17 8:13
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Re: Tell me why I shouldn't dump my Cervelo P5 [Grill] [ In reply to ]
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So, with a little work, I can scrap the brakes and aero bars. I'll put either Morf or USE Tula bars and Omega X brakes on. So that just leaves the Q-Factor/BB issue.

It looks like the Power2max will sell me Rotor3D in 150 length. That will give me a 149 Q-Factor, which isn't great, but is at least better than 160.

I just bought a very cheap P3C frame. So the remaining question is: do the Aero advantages of the P5 frame make up for having a 10mm bigger Q-factor and a BB that probably costs an extra watt or two (or 10 when it really starts to grind) in sealing and bearing drag?

My latest book: "Out of the Melting Pot, Into the Fire" is on sale on Amazon and at other online and local booksellers
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Re: Tell me why I shouldn't dump my Cervelo P5 [jens] [ In reply to ]
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jens wrote:
So, with a little work, I can scrap the brakes and aero bars. I'll put either Morf or USE Tula bars and Omega X brakes on. So that just leaves the Q-Factor/BB issue.

It looks like the Power2max will sell me Rotor3D in 150 length. That will give me a 149 Q-Factor, which isn't great, but is at least better than 160.

I just bought a very cheap P3C frame. So the remaining question is: do the Aero advantages of the P5 frame make up for having a 10mm bigger Q-factor and a BB that probably costs an extra watt or two (or 10 when it really starts to grind) in sealing and bearing drag?

Yes. The P5 is much faster than the P3c regardless. And you're grossly overstating any loss due to the BB (look at Friction Facts report on the C-Bear BB).
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Re: Tell me why I shouldn't dump my Cervelo P5 [Grill] [ In reply to ]
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maybe or maybe not...I have been told different...by someone who was at cervelo.

How do you know the P5 is much faster than the classic P3?
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Re: Tell me why I shouldn't dump my Cervelo P5 [zooropa] [ In reply to ]
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p5 was supposed to be about the same as the p4 when it came out in the white paper. the p4 was 10w faster than the p3c per cervelo windtunnel graphs posted on this site somewhere. you do the math

based upon poor memory
Last edited by: jeffp: Jan 30, 17 11:15
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Re: Tell me why I shouldn't dump my Cervelo P5 [zooropa] [ In reply to ]
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zooropa wrote:
maybe or maybe not...I have been told different...by someone who was at cervelo.

How do you know the P5 is much faster than the classic P3?

It is and I know. ;)
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Re: Tell me why I shouldn't dump my Cervelo P5 [jeffp] [ In reply to ]
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I will never get why the P4 is supposedly so fast with 2 brakes and cables hanging out in the wind. So, if Cervelo made a hidden brake and cable version of the P4 it should be the fastest TT bike of all time........
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Re: Tell me why I shouldn't dump my Cervelo P5 [ridenfish39] [ In reply to ]
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ridenfish39 wrote:
I will never get why the P4 is supposedly so fast with 2 brakes and cables hanging out in the wind. So, if Cervelo made a hidden brake and cable version of the P4 it should be the fastest TT bike of all time........
P4 rear brake is hidden.
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Re: Tell me why I shouldn't dump my Cervelo P5 [spudone] [ In reply to ]
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What about A Wheels Manufacturing pf30
For your bottom bracket
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Re: Tell me why I shouldn't dump my Cervelo P5 [jens] [ In reply to ]
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OP: I'm in the same boat. Upgraded from P3 to P5 in 2014. Not a huge fan for many of the same reasons you listed. Biggest one for me the Q-Factor. I have the hips of a high school cheer leader, so my feet/pedals are much wider than my knees. Looking to get a narrower stance from an ergonomic standpoint, if that comes aerodynamics too, then great. Are campy cranks narrower than others? Or was the 131 q-factor just due to the P3 BB and frame?

-
"It's nice to be great, but far greater to be nice"
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Re: Tell me why I shouldn't dump my Cervelo P5 [jens] [ In reply to ]
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I thought that Q-factor had to do with the cranks and not the frame. What have I missed?
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Re: Tell me why I shouldn't dump my Cervelo P5 [jens] [ In reply to ]
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I don't quite know which p5 you have (the black with red spiral or newer red one) but in my opinion these are the coolest looking bikes and paint jobs out there. Most tri bikes are so simply painted all black and black/white I happen to really like the look of a p5 and especially the newer red ones. So if I wee you I would keep it just because it's awesome!... and it's a pretty wanted bike still so you can brag about having one!
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Re: Tell me why I shouldn't dump my Cervelo P5 [yoe400800] [ In reply to ]
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yoe400800 wrote:
Are campy cranks narrower than others? Or was the 131 q-factor just due to the P3 BB and frame?

He was using track cranks with a square taper BB. Much narrower than anything on an external BB
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Re: Tell me why I shouldn't dump my Cervelo P5 [ridenfish39] [ In reply to ]
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ridenfish39 wrote:
I will never get why the P4 is supposedly so fast with 2 brakes and cables hanging out in the wind. So, if Cervelo made a hidden brake and cable version of the P4 it should be the fastest TT bike of all time........

The cynics would say: I don't know what the P4 has hanging there in the wind, but "braking" wasn't part of the job description.

ZONE3 - We Last Longer
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