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Re: Team 4 x 400 IM: February FISH [sweet_wtr] [ In reply to ]
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No feedback yet. I'd be happy to here anyone's .02. I have my own thoughts, but don't
want to prejudice the experts.
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Re: Team 4 x 400 IM: February FISH [jbank] [ In reply to ]
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Okay, you looked great in the water and nothing really earth shattering coming from me here. Some might feel my comments are of little importance but at first glance these three things in your freestyle popped out at me... (easy fixes that may buy you some extra interval time, thus allow you to drop to the next interval!)

1) Breathing every stroke. Have you ever tried breathing every three? I think it would be good for you. Just as a general rule of thumb, depending on the set mix it up if you obviously need more or less air. I think it keeps you balanced, shoulder/arm stress evens out, and it's just nice to be comfortable w/ both sides incase the open water or other open water swimmers don't cooperate with you always breathing to the right.

2) Breathing off the wall. General rule of thumb try to take at least two strokes before your breath. Keep your momentum off the wall for a couple strokes before you put on the brakes and breathe. (This could be way outdated but three strokes off every wall was drilled into me growing up... can't get it out of my head unless it's a serious distance set. Can't say I always follow this rule but I strive to)

3) I noticed that your left leg kind of kicks out a lot as you breathe to the right... wonder if you thought about tightening your kick when you breathe you'd be more streamlined?

(I may have noticed you have a narrow pull in free, couldn't quite tell. Looked like you could get more of an 90 angle w/ elbow and widen out a bit (hands pulling more below shoulder line than middle of chest. But need to look more at the video...)

Breaststroke - all I have to say is Ride the Glide. Really power forward and ride that glide while tightly streamlined for a smidge longer.


Hope this is helpful and not total crap, take it or leave it but thought I'd throw it out there! These are things I think about. I hope I'm thinking about the right things ;-)

EDIT- Just watched your flip turn, nice flip ;-) Only suggestion there is to pull first with your deep water arm, looks like your left arm. Much stronger pull!
Last edited by: sweet_wtr: Feb 17, 12 17:59
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Re: Team 4 x 400 IM: February FISH [sweet_wtr] [ In reply to ]
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Wow, thanks for going through the trouble to give such detailed feedback, I really appreciate you taking
the time to do so. I was originally asking about fly because I thought my fly stunk and kept me from
doing IM sets, but the freestyle feedback is probably even more valuable.

1.) While I can breath left, I am significantly less comfortable doing so. I feel fine breathing every
three while pulling, so I think it is a body position issue, probably connected to my left foot kick (another
good point).
2.) Yup, you can really see that my first breath off the wall my head comes way up. You can see both
goggles out of the water on that first breath off the wall. I've tried not breathing off the wall and I
struggle with holding my breath that long. Is there some secret, or is it just getting used to hypoxia?
3.) I saw the left leg thing in the video as well. I had no idea I was doing that. I know that my kick
is a bit asymmetric; my right kick is always stronger. I usually either swim a two-beat kick, or a four
beat where I do three beat on my right arm stroke and one beat on my left arm. Guess I'll try to
pay a bit of attention and see if that helps bring it into a more streamlined position.
4.) I agree about the pull, in fact my comment to myself was that my right arm in particular looks
to have some cross-over and should start wider in the water.
5.) I'm sure my BS is crap, but at least I don't get too badly winded doing it that I can't do an IM
like I do with fly. Thanks for the tip anyway, I'll work on the glide.
6.) Regarding the pull after the flip. Is it normal to have a "deep water arm" where I am still partly
rolled on my side, or am I supposed to get to a neutral body position in my streamline? I guess
I've always pulled first with my right hand because I'm right handed. Seems like an easy change.
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Re: Team 4 x 400 IM: February FISH [jbank] [ In reply to ]
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Long & slow today - had a hard ride last night & a long run this afternoon, so the swim was:
8x400 pull, 30 sec rest.
200 easy.
3400 LCM
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Re: Team 4 x 400 IM: February FISH [jbank] [ In reply to ]
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Love swimming and love watching people improve. I wish I could comment on fly but really can't, I think I black out every time I swim it! Somehow I've improved in fly though... maybe higher hips and lower chest, wider pull I think. Anyway... just to answer a few of your questions:


1.) Keep charging w/ breathing every 3 at least 1x or 2x per 25. It will pay off. Experiment with this.
2.) Breathing off the wall... I try to breathe about two strokes from my flip, flip exhaling slowly until I'm on top of the water, then big exhale and two/three strokes breathe. Good point about both goggles out... maybe try tucking your chin slightly, almost like looking over your shoulder behind you a bit? The Race Club videos have a good segment on that. Maybe just every other flip turn try two strokes? Build up, it is significantly harder but I'm sure you've got the cardio.
3.) Yeah, just be mindful of that kick. I think it will get sorted out w/ your new breathing pattern.
4.) Yeah, just be mindful of your pull. Paddles might help with this?
5.) Actually I thought your breaststroke looked good. You finished your kick heel to heel, a lot of people don't. Just ride the glide.
6.) Yup, everyone has a deep water arm. You do a great job of a straight flip landing with feet/hips/shoulders square, pushing off on your back and as you rotate you'll notice which arm is your deep arm. Continue what you're doing, pushing off, rolling to your side, tight streamline while kicking and when you're ready to surface do so by using your left arm for your first stroke. You might be amazed that such a little change will feel more powerful and get you farther down the pool off your streamline.


EDIT : Here is the link to the Race Club video re: breathing... I found this video very useful. He makes a good point during his breathing every three segment. His 2/3 pattern is cool. Tried it during the hour swim.


http://www.theraceclub.net/videos/breathing-patterns/

Last edited by: sweet_wtr: Feb 18, 12 6:15
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Re: Team 4 x 400 IM: February FISH [jbank] [ In reply to ]
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I saw the videos too. Caveat emptor: I am not a professional stroke expert. =)

I agree with everything sweet_wtr has told you -- especially about that scissor kick you've got going there. Does using a pull buoy help that?

Your stroke needs to catch more water. I agree you need to stay out wider, but I would look up "early vertical forearm (EVF)" on google. There are videos and explanations. I think you are ready.

Your fly... It seems to me that you still lack a lot of swimming flexibility. On your butterfly it looks like you have to come up very high in the water just to get your arms around because you lack flexibility in your shoulders. That is exhausting. You need to find some good exercises to stretch your shoulders, lats, and pecs. I have some I do, but I'm not sure they are still worth recommending (time marches on). I will probably look around the internet today for some, now that I think about it.
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Re: Team 4 x 400 IM: February FISH [sweet_wtr] [ In reply to ]
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sweet_wtr wrote:
also just wanted to clarify that I was referring to plantar fasciitis. my feet have been killing me, haven't really been running, i was biking w/ intense short intervals and adding more kick to my swim sets. weird.

next time i chime in on this thread i'll make sure i haven't chugged espresso before i post ;-)

On plantar fasciitis, I had it a long time ago and sent off for some science-based booklet from a company. I don't remember any special tricks to recover -- other than the usual RICE type stuff. However, they mentioned that PF was highly correlated with weak lateral (side to side) ankle strength. Evidently the achilles tendon area gets inflamed when being flexed on a wobbly ankle. So the idea is to keep you ankles from wobbling. How? Well, one, you strengthen them. They recommended balancing yourself on one leg on one of those half-moon blue squishy things (3x1min per leg). Keeping your balance forces your lateral ankle muscles to work.

Secondly, they also said to avoid things that would make your ankle wobble more -- that means heels. High heels cause more torque to be applied to your ankle. The more torque is applied the more your ankle is liable to wobble while flexing. This goes for woman's high heels and running shoes that have an elevated heal. Running around a track can cause more ankle wobble, trail running too.

I started the strengthening exercises right away and it seemed to help. I changed out my super-padded heel running shoes, and haven't had PF since then.
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Re: Team 4 x 400 IM: February FISH [SH] [ In reply to ]
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Today...

Swam with master team.
We did weird sets that are hard to write down.

~3500 scm
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Re: Team 4 x 400 IM: February FISH [SH] [ In reply to ]
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4.88 mile run
3100 yd swim

Slow swim but it felt good to be in the water. Working on more PhD school applications now.

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD
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Re: Team 4 x 400 IM: February FISH [jbank] [ In reply to ]
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Fly is where my "expertise" (if you'd call it that) lies. I agree with SH on shoulder flexibility being a limiting factor for you. Most natural flyers have excellent flexibility in the front deltoid/pec muscles. This allows them to bring their arms over the water without having to raise the chest so much. If you watch Phelps, all you'll see is his chin skimming the water as he breathes, you can't even really see his neck. He "reaches" with his chin and "presses" with his sternum while breathing, this downward motion of his sternum is what allows his hips to rise. If you watch your video, you'll notice you never see you hips come close to the surface. There's no way to get the hips up without allowing the chest a little downward motion.

My suggestion would be to start with one-arm drills to get the motion down. Really exaggerate trying to press with your sternum (this does NOT mean dive with the head). You can start with the static arm out in front of you and then move that arm to your side. Good luck!
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Re: Team 4 x 400 IM: February FISH [tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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I took a few days off because I just got really sore - everywhere. My body was telling me something. So today is first day back and it felt pretty decent...
Ran down to pool (and back afterwards) - hardly 2.5 miles round trip, really a nice warm-up

500 s w/u
5x100 various kicks
5x100@1:20 1:10/:11/:09/:07/:05
200 br kick
5x100@2:00 IM 1:20/:19/:18/:16 (took extra minute rest 1:11 (woohoo!)
200 br kick
10x50@1:00 alt fr/br fr-:34/:31/:31/:32/:31 br-:40/:37/:38/:37/:36
5x100 various kicks
5x100@1:45 1:06/:05/:07/:06/:06
300 s/k cool

4200 sc yardages

Good luck, TC, with your school search.

Proud member of FISHTWITCH: doing a bit more than fish exercise now.
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Re: Team 4 x 400 IM: February FISH [SH] [ In reply to ]
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SH wrote:
I saw the videos too. Caveat emptor: I am not a professional stroke expert. =)

I agree with everything sweet_wtr has told you -- especially about that scissor kick you've got going there. Does using a pull buoy help that?

Your stroke needs to catch more water. I agree you need to stay out wider, but I would look up "early vertical forearm (EVF)" on google. There are videos and explanations. I think you are ready.

Your fly... It seems to me that you still lack a lot of swimming flexibility. On your butterfly it looks like you have to come up very high in the water just to get your arms around because you lack flexibility in your shoulders. That is exhausting. You need to find some good exercises to stretch your shoulders, lats, and pecs. I have some I do, but I'm not sure they are still worth recommending (time marches on). I will probably look around the internet today for some, now that I think about it.

I'm not sure what your getting at with the pull buoy helping with the scissor kick. I don't kick at all with
a pull buoy, so I guess it helps with not doing scissor kicks. I generally swim a bit faster with a buoy
and paddles, but I don't think that is that unusual. I certainly feel more balanced with a buoy (or a
wetsuit for that matter).

I've certainly heard about EVF and for what its worth think I'm trying to do it a bit, but I wonder if that is
also related to the flexibility issue. Your point about flexibility is spot on. I don't have great upper body
flexibility. That thing that some people can do where they reach back over one shoulder and can grab
their hand. Me, not so much. I'd be lucky to be within 6 inches. If you run across some exercises, I'd
love to hear about them.
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Re: Team 4 x 400 IM: February FISH [SH] [ In reply to ]
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SH - Thanks so much for the info. on PF. I'm really bugged about it and hope to not have it set me back any more than it already has. Thinking about switching to more of a racing flat for running shoes. I'm getting on those ankle strength exercises tonight between ice sessions.

TC- If you need a break from applications, I'll be at a very low key afternoon swim meet tomorrow. Deck enter the 500 and I can be your counter if you feel like crushing it! Send me a PM. Might be just what you need.
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Re: Team 4 x 400 IM: February FISH [sweet_wtr] [ In reply to ]
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Today's swim:

Warm up: 500scy (300 & 200)
Main Set: 8 x 250scy on 4:00 (3:30, :30, :29, :29, :32, :35, :36, :38)
Still need to work on my endurance and/or form while tired.
Warm Down: 100scy

Total: 2,600scy

I also engaged in some other rewarding forms of exercises and activities today. However, I won't list them here, so as not to offend the fundamentalist wing of the Fish Thread.

What I do: http://app.strava.com/athletes/345699
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Re: Team 4 x 400 IM: February FISH [HalfSpeed] [ In reply to ]
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(took extra minute rest 1:11 (woohoo!) //

Dam steve, all that breastroke is paying off! Very nice workout swim, i will try that set next week sometime and see what i can do.

Felt pretty good today considering what i did yesterday, very surprised:

3x(300/200/100/100kick)@5;00/3;30/2;00/2;30---4;27/4;16/3;57p--2;53/2;36/2;36p--1;23/1;18/1;12p/2;03/1;57/1;52
10x50@1;00 working on pull through- 42 to 36
2x100kick@2;15- 1;52/1;54
100SD
2900SCM
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Re: Team 4 x 400 IM: February FISH [monty] [ In reply to ]
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I hung on the wall after that IM for a few minutes trying to get my lungs back inside my chest cavity. I was spent! Don't know if I'm swimming tomorrow - depends on the AM drizzle factor - no drizzle, bike ride; drizzle, swim. Ooops, apparently not allowed to mention anything but swimming on this thread. :-)

Proud member of FISHTWITCH: doing a bit more than fish exercise now.
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Re: Team 4 x 400 IM: February FISH [HalfSpeed] [ In reply to ]
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SCY swim meet today... super crazy light week biking/running so legs felt pretty fresh off the blocks. Oddly enough not that fresh off the walls but happy with times. Swam some off events... can you tell which one is the most off?

200 IM - 2:26.15
200 Free - 2:11.57
50 Brst - 33.41
100 Brst - 1:13.84 (not 100% on the tenths/hundreths)
50 Back - :36.?

My IM could be sick if I could swim backstroke. Any backstrokers out there willing to provide feedback if embarrassing video is provided?
Last edited by: sweet_wtr: Feb 19, 12 19:29
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Re: Team 4 x 400 IM: February FISH [HalfSpeed] [ In reply to ]
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run + swim
run: 10 miles
swim: 4000 scy
600 w/u
12 x 50 k/sw
3 x 100 on 1:45 desc
300 fast
2 x 100 on 1:45 k/s by 50
300 fast
2 x 100 on 1:45 k/sw by 50
300 fast
2 x 100 on 1:45 k/sw by 25
500 fast (6:43)
3 x 100 on 1:45 k/sw by 50
200 c/d

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD
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Re: Team 4 x 400 IM: February FISH [tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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Sat.

Short swim...

100 easy
20 x 50 @60
Mixed up, 12 were strong ~30 to 31, rest very easy
100 easy

I had limited time as my son was at lessons.

Sun...

Again limited time and a crowded free Y Sunday


16 x 100 @ 1:30
3 strong, 1 easy x 4
Strong average 1:06ish
100 easy

Will swim longer today

___________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)
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Re: Team 4 x 400 IM: February FISH [tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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Nice job tigerchik... you are a running animal.

today...

missed warmup
8x50kick
8x150@2:15 (descend: start 1:15/100m down to 1:08/100m)
200 easy
20x50@ 1:00 1hard,1easy, 2h,1e,3h,1e,4h,1e,5h,1e
200 easy
300@4:30
200@3:00
100@1:30
200@2:55
200@2:50
200@2:45
200@2:50
200@2:40

~4600scm
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Re: Team 4 x 400 IM: February FISH [SH] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Nice job tigerchik... you are a running animal.


We tigers are ;-)


Thanks. I like your 50 set.

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD
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Re: Team 4 x 400 IM: February FISH [sweet_wtr] [ In reply to ]
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sweet_wtr wrote:
SCY swim meet today... super crazy light week biking/running so legs felt pretty fresh off the blocks. Oddly enough not that fresh off the walls but happy with times. Swam some off events... can you tell which one is the most off?

200 IM - 2:26.15
200 Free - 2:11.57
50 Brst - 33.41
100 Brst - 1:13.84 (not 100% on the tenths/hundreths)
50 Back - :36.?

My IM could be sick if I could swim backstroke. Any backstrokers out there willing to provide feedback if embarrassing video is provided?

Congrats on the swim meet -- those breast stroke times look even faster than last meet! I'm guessing the time with the "?" in it might have been your off event? My backstroke is pretty rough, but 3 seconds slower than your breast stroke for a 50? Yikes! (j/k... well not j/k, but j/k in the tone.)

I'm always up for watching embarrassing videos, but I'm no backstroke expert. My experience has been that backstroke is the hardest stroke to change, too.
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Re: Team 4 x 400 IM: February FISH [tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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I did 7.5 miles Sunday, running down to the beach and back. Although it felt good, it was shockingly slow. It is a hilly route, though, just look back on what people have said about the Orangeman 70.3 run course - that's it.

300 reverse IM broken w/u
100/200/300 based on 1:30 1:06/2:18/3:40
300 various kicks
300/200/100 based on 1:30 3:38/2:18/1:05
300 various kicks
100 cool

2200 sc yardages

Proud member of FISHTWITCH: doing a bit more than fish exercise now.
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Re: Team 4 x 400 IM: February FISH [tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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100 Sw
100 K
200 Sw
100 K
100 easy
4x75@ 1:10 av 50
100 easy

1500 strong in 18:12 (90% ish, just below redline pace)

200 swim down

2700 scm

1500 felt ok, heart rate was not soaring, no muscle straining or fatigue.

___________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)
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Re: Team 4 x 400 IM: February FISH [SH] [ In reply to ]
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// Congrats on the swim meet -- those breast stroke times look even faster than last meet! I'm guessing the time with the "?" in it might have been your off event? My backstroke is pretty rough, but 3 seconds slower than your breast stroke for a 50? Yikes! (j/k... well not j/k, but j/k in the tone.)

I'm always up for watching embarrassing videos, but I'm no backstroke expert. My experience has been that backstroke is the hardest stroke to change, too. //


Thanks! Yes, breaststroke was good this weekend, rested legs were a HUGE help. Backstroke is rough! I hear ya about the 3 sec. slower... not pretty. Tried to widen my point of entry today, I think I reach way to high above my head. I'll work on posting the video.


Today's Crush It, It's Monday workout... (a transition race w/ gear to make the intervals towards the end)




200 Swim Free / 200 Kick Free (6Ks, 4Ks, 4Ks, 2Ks)

100 Drill (right arm pull / left arm pull / catch up / fingertip drag)

4 x 50 @ 1' Free / Back *Work first 3 strokes in back , widen point of entry*


400 pull @ 6' / 7'
200 swim @ 3’ / 3:30
300 pull @ 4:30 / 5:15
200 swim @ 3' / 3:30
100 pull @ 1:30 / 1:40
200 swim @ 3' / 3:30

50 pull @ :50 / :55

200 swim @ 3' / 3:30

4x 50 @ 1' Free / Back *Work first 3 strokes in back , widen point of entry*

2 x 100 @ 2' (2 Kick Switch / Catch Up / Fingertip Drag / Swim)

50 EZ (2700)
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