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Re: Tacx Neo - Ask me anything [zachboring] [ In reply to ]
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zachboring wrote:
Okay. Not too horrible, but not great. Was hoping that was more towards the 40-50 range.

Since the magnetic field isn't 100% uniform, you are feeling small little jumps as you cycle. More magnets would solve this, but there a restrictions based off dimensional constraints. Or there could be a heavy flywheel to help "carry" the motion during these low cadence sections to avoid this issue. Either way, it's hardware based.

I'm sure this issue has been seen ok other magnetic resistance trainers as well

Holy shit... you sound smart :)

I know better though... you did sell me the S5 frame... :)
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Re: Tacx Neo - Ask me anything [julesg88] [ In reply to ]
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julesg88 wrote:
BergHügi wrote:

...

What I notice on my unit: On low cadence, I can feel some sort of "vibration" on the pedals - the resistance is not entirely smooth then.
Do you get the same?

No, not really. There is some vibration coming from the flywheel area but nothing special at the pedals.

My wife and I do not train seriously at the moment thus we do not have lot experience with the Neo. At the end it is just a trainer which works!

Watts feel harder on the Neo than with our powermeters. Maybe I check the Tacx against SRM this weekend. Our Kickr is consistent with calibrated SRMs after warm up of 20 minutes and following spin down.
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Re: Tacx Neo - Ask me anything [Donzo98] [ In reply to ]
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Don't count on me being smart to often.

Still regret that too :( being put to good use though
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Re: Tacx Neo - Ask me anything [zachboring] [ In reply to ]
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zachboring wrote:
...More magnets would solve this, but there a restrictions based off dimensional constraints. Or there could be a heavy flywheel to help "carry" the motion during these low cadence sections to avoid this issue.

Or they could use sine PWM control of their motor instead of trapezoidal. This way it will not feel as stepper motor at low RPM.

http://veloreality.com
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Re: Tacx Neo - Ask me anything [kostya416] [ In reply to ]
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True.
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Re: Tacx Neo - Ask me anything [kostya416] [ In reply to ]
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kostya416 wrote:
zachboring wrote:
...More magnets would solve this, but there a restrictions based off dimensional constraints. Or there could be a heavy flywheel to help "carry" the motion during these low cadence sections to avoid this issue.


Or they could use sine PWM control of their motor instead of trapezoidal. This way it will not feel as stepper motor at low RPM.

This could be changed by software modification, right?
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Re: Tacx Neo - Ask me anything [julesg88] [ In reply to ]
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julesg88 wrote:
...This could be changed by software modification, right?...

Not software, but firmware update. That is if they're lucky of course. There quite a few factors involved and the stars should line up properly ;)

http://veloreality.com
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Re: Tacx Neo - Ask me anything [BergHügi] [ In reply to ]
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Hi,

For me road-feel is everything and on 27th place noise, software not important at all as long you can adjust resistance.

If you have time please elaborate about Kickr having better road-feel than Neo. Ramp-up time for Kickr I see as none-issue, mostly due to I rarely do that kind of training and the "problem" is easily solved by shifting to front big-ring.


>>
Feel:
Proprietary Trainer = SRM Trainer = Kickr > Neo
Nothing beats a high inertia flywheel

>>

BR David

__________________
http://www.nasvik.se
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Re: Tacx Neo - Ask me anything [TriDave79] [ In reply to ]
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What happened to all the people who were updating where these neo's are on a boat? I got an email saying that ship is delayed until late November. :(
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Re: Tacx Neo - Ask me anything [TriDave79] [ In reply to ]
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TriDave79 wrote:
Hi,

For me road-feel is everything and on 27th place noise, software not important at all as long you can adjust resistance.

If you have time please elaborate about Kickr having better road-feel than Neo. Ramp-up time for Kickr I see as none-issue, mostly due to I rarely do that kind of training and the "problem" is easily solved by shifting to front big-ring.


>>
Feel:
Proprietary Trainer = SRM Trainer = Kickr > Neo
Nothing beats a high inertia flywheel

>>

BR David

If road feel is the most important feature you might want to check out the Lynx: https://veloreality.com/products/lynx-trainer/

Disclaimer, I've never ridden one and it's expensive.
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Re: Tacx Neo - Ask me anything [Donzo98] [ In reply to ]
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Donzo98 wrote:
julesg88 wrote:
Donzo98 wrote:
Are you using the Neo in ERG mode yet??

I am very interested to see if the power numbers are accurate as compared to an external power meter.

I have a KICKR and use my SRM to control it (which is now working well).

If the NEO proves to be accurate I might consider jumping on board so I would not need my SRM to control the KICKR.

Noise in not an issue for me... as my Pain Cave is in the basement.



From my experience riding in Zwift (Neo Power displayed on Zwift, Stages Power displayed on Garmin): Neo reads about 20W higher than my stages - consistently.


OH man... here we go again :)

but i thought total power and estimated power were the same thing
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Re: Tacx Neo - Ask me anything [racehd] [ In reply to ]
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racehd wrote:
Donzo98 wrote:
julesg88 wrote:
Donzo98 wrote:
Are you using the Neo in ERG mode yet??

I am very interested to see if the power numbers are accurate as compared to an external power meter.

I have a KICKR and use my SRM to control it (which is now working well).

If the NEO proves to be accurate I might consider jumping on board so I would not need my SRM to control the KICKR.

Noise in not an issue for me... as my Pain Cave is in the basement.



From my experience riding in Zwift (Neo Power displayed on Zwift, Stages Power displayed on Garmin): Neo reads about 20W higher than my stages - consistently.


OH man... here we go again :)


but i thought total power and estimated power were the same thing

He is referring to the issues with the Kickr reading high. The Neo was supposed to be the ultimate of trainers, not requiring calibration, no temperature drift, so if this is true, then the Neo will also require a regular PM for controlling the load if you want an accurate and consistent workout .... just like the Kickr.
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Re: Tacx Neo - Ask me anything [mcmetal] [ In reply to ]
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mcmetal wrote:
racehd wrote:
but i thought total power and estimated power were the same thing


He is referring to the issues with the Kickr reading high. The Neo was supposed to be the ultimate of trainers, not requiring calibration, no temperature drift, so if this is true, then the Neo will also require a regular PM for controlling the load if you want an accurate and consistent workout .... just like the Kickr.

Or perhaps he knew plenty well about the issues reported against he KICKR but has the common sense to realize that it doesn't matter what effing trainer you have, if you are doing a single side estimation of total power with a possible imbalance then your trainer power is always going to be "off" relative.

But no, clearly if your power meter doesn't match your trainer it's definitely the trainers fault and not one of the other 20 possibilities.

F--k me, I quit these threads.
Last edited by: tgarson: Oct 16, 15 11:03
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Re: Tacx Neo - Ask me anything [tgarson] [ In reply to ]
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tgarson wrote:
mcmetal wrote:
racehd wrote:
but i thought total power and estimated power were the same thing


He is referring to the issues with the Kickr reading high. The Neo was supposed to be the ultimate of trainers, not requiring calibration, no temperature drift, so if this is true, then the Neo will also require a regular PM for controlling the load if you want an accurate and consistent workout .... just like the Kickr.


Or perhaps he knew plenty well about the issues reported against he KICKR but has the common sense to realize that it doesn't matter what effing trainer you have, if you are doing a single side estimation of total power with a possible imbalance then your trainer power is always going to be "off" relative.

But no, clearly if your power meter doesn't match your trainer it's definitely the trainers fault and not one of the other 20 possibilities.

F--k me, I quit these threads.


Your missing the history on this. Donzo in particular went through a lot to get things working correctly on his Kickr and finally has things working using his SRM to control the power. Basically it was pages and pages of folks with issues and solutions, hence the "here we go again" response he gave when someone mentioned the power was off.

See this thread:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...t_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;

As to if his "stages" was correct, who knows. All I can say is I have 3 Quarqs, 3 Computrainers and a Velotron and they all match up and are consistent. So no it's not too much to expect for Quarqs and SRMs to be accurate and consistent.
Last edited by: mcmetal: Oct 16, 15 11:26
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Re: Tacx Neo - Ask me anything [mcmetal] [ In reply to ]
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mcmetal wrote:
racehd wrote:
Donzo98 wrote:
julesg88 wrote:
Donzo98 wrote:
Are you using the Neo in ERG mode yet??

I am very interested to see if the power numbers are accurate as compared to an external power meter.

I have a KICKR and use my SRM to control it (which is now working well).

If the NEO proves to be accurate I might consider jumping on board so I would not need my SRM to control the KICKR.

Noise in not an issue for me... as my Pain Cave is in the basement.



From my experience riding in Zwift (Neo Power displayed on Zwift, Stages Power displayed on Garmin): Neo reads about 20W higher than my stages - consistently.


OH man... here we go again :)


but i thought total power and estimated power were the same thing


He is referring to the issues with the Kickr reading high. The Neo was supposed to be the ultimate of trainers, not requiring calibration, no temperature drift, so if this is true, then the Neo will also require a regular PM for controlling the load if you want an accurate and consistent workout .... just like the Kickr.


EXACTLY! If this is actually the case... other than less noise, the NEO is no better than the KICKR.
Last edited by: Donzo98: Oct 16, 15 15:40
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Re: Tacx Neo - Ask me anything [Donzo98] [ In reply to ]
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My Powertap wheel always reads 5 to 10 watts higher than my Quarq. So I think you are asking too much from the Neo. Besides, the last powermeter I would base accuracy off of would be a Stages powermeter.
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Re: Tacx Neo - Ask me anything [tgarson] [ In reply to ]
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tgarson wrote:
TriDave79 wrote:
Hi,

For me road-feel is everything and on 27th place noise, software not important at all as long you can adjust resistance.

If you have time please elaborate about Kickr having better road-feel than Neo. Ramp-up time for Kickr I see as none-issue, mostly due to I rarely do that kind of training and the "problem" is easily solved by shifting to front big-ring.


>>
Feel:
Proprietary Trainer = SRM Trainer = Kickr > Neo
Nothing beats a high inertia flywheel

>>

BR David


If road feel is the most important feature you might want to check out the Lynx: https://veloreality.com/products/lynx-trainer/

Disclaimer, I've never ridden one and it's expensive.

Here is new model (Lynx II) for 2015: https://flic.kr/s/aHskiRkMAP

http://veloreality.com
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Re: Tacx Neo - Ask me anything [tgarson] [ In reply to ]
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tgarson wrote:
But no, clearly if your power meter doesn't match your trainer it's definitely the trainers fault and not one of the other 20 possibilities.

#truth. People have made up more bs about the Kickr versus the Neo without trying either one (although that pales in comparison to the amount of annoying comments about power in general). Who even knows how many people have issues with power on the kickr, or even whether bike powermeters are accurate and precise, and every single thing that measures something else needs calibration all the time, every time...

...so many problems with the interpretation of gossip on here.

Hey BergHurl, you actually made me feel like the Neo is a frugal man's great deal! It's not even half the price of an SRM trainer or a proprietary trainer. I thought I was overspending but now I can safely say I saved thousands USD$.

Thanks!
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Re: Tacx Neo - Ask me anything [tgarson] [ In reply to ]
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tgarson wrote:
mcmetal wrote:
racehd wrote:
but i thought total power and estimated power were the same thing


He is referring to the issues with the Kickr reading high. The Neo was supposed to be the ultimate of trainers, not requiring calibration, no temperature drift, so if this is true, then the Neo will also require a regular PM for controlling the load if you want an accurate and consistent workout .... just like the Kickr.

Or perhaps he knew plenty well about the issues reported against he KICKR but has the common sense to realize that it doesn't matter what effing trainer you have, if you are doing a single side estimation of total power with a possible imbalance then your trainer power is always going to be "off" relative.

But no, clearly if your power meter doesn't match your trainer it's definitely the trainers fault and not one of the other 20 possibilities.

F--k me, I quit these threads.

Don't discount those of us who KNOW our KICKRS are off...

It might be one of 20 possibilities... but it's not. It's the KICKR.
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Re: Tacx Neo - Ask me anything [TriDave79] [ In reply to ]
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TriDave79 wrote:
Hi,

For me road-feel is everything and on 27th place noise, software not important at all as long you can adjust resistance.

If you have time please elaborate about Kickr having better road-feel than Neo. Ramp-up time for Kickr I see as none-issue, mostly due to I rarely do that kind of training and the "problem" is easily solved by shifting to front big-ring.

Did 1h test with the Neo using Tacx app in ergo mode and a SRM on the bike.
Concerning "feel", simulation of inertia works resulting in a quite fluent pedalling, however there is some "vibration" in the drive train. The Kickr is more fluent, yes I would say the Kickr "feels" a little bit better.
Concerning power, the Neo gave somewhat lower Watts than SRM. At nominal 150W for the Neo the SRM gave around 155W. At 200W for the Neo the SRM measured 208W. If one accounts for drive train losses the Neo was spot on with SRM, in any case better than I expected. Also during this 1h test no hint for power drift. In this respect my Kickr is inferior.

By the way, I got the SRM trainer for 2000$ with a wireless SRM from ebay. Use the wireless SRM now on my road bike and bought a wired SRM for the trainer from ebay for 400$. And the "proprietary" trainer was cheap not accounting for the hours to design and construct it.
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Re: Tacx Neo - Ask me anything [BergHügi] [ In reply to ]
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Interesting info....

Were your comparisons based on 2 intervals at 150 and 200?

If so... how long were the intervals? You compared avg power for both I assume?
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Re: Tacx Neo - Ask me anything [Donzo98] [ In reply to ]
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Donzo98 wrote:
Interesting info....

Were your comparisons based on 2 intervals at 150 and 200?

If so... how long were the intervals? You compared avg power for both I assume?

I apologize that fast first comparison was based just on "looking" at the SRM PowerControl and a Osynce Navi2Coach recording the ANT+ data from the Neo. Here now the mean values for the intervalls evaluating the fit files with GoldenCheetah. The NEO was controlled by the Tacx App in ergo mode via BT and an IPad:

Interval 1: ~10min; NEO: 150W 93rpm; SRM: 159W 93rpm
Interval 2: ~5min; NEO: 175W 93rpm; SRM: 182W 93rpm
Interval 3: ~5min; NEO: 175W 84rpm; SRM: 180W 85rpm
Interval 4: ~5min; NEO; 200W 84rpm; SRM: 204W 85rpm
Interval 5: ~5min; NEO: 200W 97rpm; SRM: 207W 97rpm
Interval 6: ~5min; NEO: 174W 94rpm; SRM: 183W 94rpm
Interval 7: ~5min; NEO; 175W 77rpm; SRM: 204W 85rpm
Interval 8: ~5min; NEO: 150W 83rpm; SRM: 157W 83rpm
Interval 9: ~5min; NEO: 150W 95rpm; SRM: 156W 85rpm

But bear in mind, this was just a simple fast an dirty test, nothing more! For example average power values were obtained just be marking regions on both fit file data in GoldenCheetah thus they can not match perfectly.
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Re: Tacx Neo - Ask me anything [BergHügi] [ In reply to ]
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Made a mistake:

Interval 7: ~5min; NEO; 175W 77rpm; SRM: 179W 85rpm
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Re: Tacx Neo - Ask me anything [BergHügi] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for sharing

IMO - If my Kickr had been as close in relation with my power meter as your SRM and Neo I probably would have been content with using the Kickr's power. My Kickr is not quite as bad as Donzo's, but still over 15 watts off and sometimes worse. Plus there is a bit of a drift. Now that I have the Kickr being controlled by a Quarq ELSA I am pretty content.

I could probably mentally deal with about > 5 watts difference. Even now with the Quarq in control there is about that much still because the Kickr has a hard time adjusting resistance based on the continual variability of the Quarq. If I were like a machine with my pace that wouldn't happen :-)
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Re: Tacx Neo - Ask me anything [Felt_Rider] [ In reply to ]
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Maybe I am just lucky, but my Kickr (got one of the first in Europe I guess) after a warm-up of 20 minutes is also quite consistent with our SRMs. I have no significant drift after 20 min war-up. In principle I like the Kickr, but we cannot use it in our flat, only in my office at the university.
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