That's like asking "What's the best bike?"

There's no single answer. It depends on what kind of rider you are, what kind of rider(s) you're leading out, course features, course conditions, and the competition. And even if you think you know all that stuff, sometimes, like in war, the plan completely falls apart after first contact with the enemy.

Quote:

I'm wondering if I'd simply held something like 400 watts for a few minutes if that's enough to keep someone from trying to pass? As in at 400 watts if you get out of the draft you have to work darn hard yourself to pass? Then at the end of the 400 watts ramp it up to red line and finish the leadout maybe 100 yards from the finish?

What you're describing is leading a bunch of Cat 1-2 guys for several minutes at the end of the race. Hero move. Single-handedly controlling a race is very, very difficult. Unlikely to end well, unless you're pretty much the strongest rider there.

I'm a similar rider as you - 5-minute guy - but I wouldn't have attempted what you did. I'd have have worked to keep my sprinter in the top 7-8 guys over those last few minutes. Picking the right wheel to rotate back to the front, or, if I had to taking a bit of wind to move him up. With about 200m to go I'd do whatever I could to get him in the top 3-4 without him having to burn a match. If successful in doing that, I'd consider my job pretty complete. If I had one more match I go to the front and drill it from about 200m out and last as long as I could to prevent any trains from going by while my guy's in 3-4th. If I get him to 100-50m still in 3rd-4th, it's on him at that point.

this comes from practice and race experience. How long can you hold sustainable speed/power to the point where you know the train won't come by. Can you maintain 30+mph for 500 meters? 1km? Its all about practice and why group rides are important for this type of thing to work on.

As for your question on holding 400 watts for the last couple of minutes.. thats setting a high pace for cat 3/4.. but at cat 1/2 that might be right in line with some guys 20 min-30 min power. That isn't going to do much in a field like that...other than play into their strengths and burn all of your matches.


Honestly, I think your best bet in a leadout is going as hard as you can while knowing that the guy behind you isn't blowing up.. but nobody can come around you either. You want to deliver your sprinter to the 100-150 meter mark in the top 3-5 positions. If you can do that, then you have done your job.

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COROS Sports Science

This. Watts are cool, sure, but if you're a cat 5 that means you have no experience. So what's the best way to provide a leadout? Having experience. How do you get experience? Race more. I know, these answers are frustrating but there are lots of things in bike racing that just take time and experience to learn. And this particular question is completely dependent on the rider too. You mention 5 minute power is where you shine, well, 3/4 of a mile in a road race is not 5 minute power. That's less than ~2 min power and as user Trail mentioned, single handedly controlling a race is very difficult so even if you did move at 5 minutes it would've been hard for you to change anything by yourself.

edit: mixed up username

At just about any level if you're doing 400w on the front for the last 5min everyone else is going to be fresh and unless you can jump up to 800w for a couple hundred meters to drop your guy off at 100-150m everyone will just go by you. If you're leading out a sprinter you shouldn't be jumping before 400-500m unless you're noticeably stronger than everyone else.

The numbers you need to worry about is time and speed, watts in the group have a wide variance as surges do damage to the back and the unprotected.

For Time:

-Amount of time you save your legs and protect your anchor rider.
-What time should you start putting out the efforts (effort to move up (~5k), effort to keep top 10 (~3k), effort for a rolling acceleration and leadout (~750m)).

For Speed:

If the finishing speed for your race is between 36-43 mph. Be able to deliver you dude the the top 3 doorstep at at 34mph 300m out with a clean line.

Watts wont matter if youre not at speed and in position for the $$$$

Ignoring the power requirements, there is a lot to learn before you're ready to be in the mix at the end of a cat 1/2 race. You're more likely to get in the way or cause a crash than provide any help. You may be a great bike handler, but there is no substitute for racing experience. Positioning, experience, and big balls rule the day for anyone still around in the last 500m.

I'm a decent 5 minute guy, but I am lucky to hold a wheel when the fast guys ramp things up at the end, so I typically just get out of the way. I'm quite happy to blow myself up helping the fast guys get/stay in position before things really heat up in the last <1K. Once the fast guys go, you need to have a decent kick to influence the race (even as a lead out guy), so there isn't much a "non-sprinter" can contribute in the last 500m of a field sprint.

It's fantastic how often leadouts get totally screwed up. It happens all the time. It's almost comical to watch 5-6 guys come to the front of a crit with 1-2 laps to go and be absolutely nowhere when it matters most, the last 400m.

My last leadout was about 25 seconds long and about 780 watts, coming out of second wheel and going from 30 to 35+ mph, finishing up with about 300m to go at the first of two technical turns that made it nearly impossible to pass.

I've tried a few leadouts this year and that's the only one that worked. Consequently, it's also the one where I was patient and waited long enough.

So timing, timing, timing and not blowing your sprinter off your wheel when you accelerate. And positioning.

Timing and positioning.

>>Anyway I was in a group loaded with Cat 1-2 guys at the end of the 50 mile RR.<<

What kind of race allowed a Cat 5 in with 1/2s?

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clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

i'll speak from the position of the guy chasing for the line;

Courses change, winds change, road features and conditions change, but usually what i WANT is at 200m to have a clean line, and be in top 5. If someone can put me there, teammate or otherwise, then its on me.
What I need from anyone leading me out is someone who will help get me to that ideal spot. WIthout seeing the course its hard to know if that means i need a guy to do a dig for 5min or 2min. Some courses are set up, and road conditions are in such a way, that if you can get on the front and hold a high pace that the places to pass are so difficult. In those instances I'll be looking for the guy who is ready to come to the front, get on and crank up the pace for the last laps past the pinch point so that no one is getting by us.

The biggest thing if you are going to be leading out is to be talking with your sprinter and other teammates, both during and before the race. He'll tell you when he wants to go. Some guys have a 200m sprint, some guys have 150 or less. If you blow up before he's ready to go then he's left freelancing. You then start working backwards from that point. If they are cat1/2 they'll also likely have an idea what's going to happen on the final laps. Pace is going up, no doubt about it, but often as teams are organizing you get a weird lull with two to 4 laps to go. Anyone in a crit knows the faster the pace the safer it is, and that lulls do nothing but allow the accordion to come back together which increase the chances of crashes. If thats the case, having someone who is willing to drill the pace regardless to keep things strung out is a far better move than having someone directly in front of you leading you out of the final turn.

Finally...and this is the most important thing:
If you're leading someone out and you are done your turn HOLD YOUR F&%KING LINE. dont peel hard right or left. just ease up and pedal straight. We've got enough to worry about with guys sprinting and changing directions, last thing a sprinter wants to worry about is the guy going backwards after his pull doing the same. Yes some guys use it as a tactic, yes its still a dick move.


Good luck and keep the rubber side down.

i chuckled at that too; could be either masters race or a midweek gig.
What I'm more interested in is a cat5 being around at the end of a Cat1/2 RR to see the sprint. That is bloody impressive

Honestly if you're a Cat 5 the best thing you can do for a Cat 1/2 in a sprint finish is to stay out of the way.

At most perhaps offer to move him up in the bunch with a few laps to go and drop him off in a good position before the sprint starts if you can, then get out of the way.

Yeah, that one bit is pretty much the only truly universal rule to leading out.

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ZONE3 - We Last Longer

Sometimes a lead out is not just about doing a Mark Renshaw. That rider just knowing what your were going to do would get him to put himself in a good position before hand. Whilst you may not have dropped the main contenders and rarely do it can serve to catch some out of positionfor the final kick. This means they:

a. may have to start their sprint after burning some energy getting into a better position while you are full throttle or
b. saving their energy and starting the sprint from a less ideal position.

A good sprinter will also tell you when to go and where to move. Being behind you they can also see who is coming before you can and let you know to perhaps start your kick early or move across onto a train for example.

There is of course a definitive answer to that question:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUb--qAT7Aw

This was a race in the Northwoods of Wisconsin put on by a group that is not USAC. Therefore this particular race had 236 finishers. I had to start 200 deep for a variety of reasons so burned lots of matches early on catching the front group....alone.

So yes there were some legit Cat 1-2 guys in the race because there's nowhere else close to race that weekend.

The way some of you make it sound maybe my tatics were not all that terrible. I'll try to go through it again and use wattage and speed.

I now see that I jumped at 1 mile to go. It was on probably a 1/4 mile grade of maybe 3%. Leading up to the hit I was holding about 300 watts leading the group at 25mph up this hill. I hit it at 650 and just slowly faded back to about 330w by the time we started to head down. Now doing 33mph. I coasted down as speeds increased to 38mph. At this point I figured nobody would go past at those speeds....and I was coasting on fried legs. The one last little kicker is short and steep and I hit it again for maybe 100 yds. Peaking at 550 watts on FRIED cramped legs, but never dropping below 32mph even on that steep little hill. At the top I was done, but held my line as the group went past with maybe 300 to go including a 90 degree turn halfway to the finish. Even when I sat up to finish and go around the corner I never dropped below 29mph. I was 4 seconds behind the leaders at the line. I did try to jump one last time a bit before the line just to keep a couple guys from coming past.

Yes....my USAC license says Cat 5. Yes....I'm probably a terrible bike handler as I can barely ride no handed. Yes I understand that there's no way I'll ride Cat 1's off my wheel. I do feel like I'm good at anticipating attacks and am aware of what's going on ahead. I feel that's very important. It's what kept me from getting dropped by the continuous attacks.

I really appreciate the responses as the knowledge gained here is incredible. Thanks.

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24 Hour World TT Champs-American record holder
Fat Bike Worlds - Race Director
Insta: chris.s.apex

IMO Speed in a race is irrelevant to review, especially if you are going for a sprint finish. You go faster than the next guy, it's about as simple as that.
Case and point; Saturday 114km RR, every other lap coming up the hill to the start finish line we were doing ~34-38km/h. Final lap with 8 of us left and a 2min gap to the chase pack we were doing 24km/h because no one wanted to be the guy that drove the pace up only to be jumped. We knew we wouldn't be caught so the cat and mouse starts in the group. In that instance it was all about being patient, knowing how far of a sprint you can do on the gradual uphill to flat finish, and ensuring you were ready to cover anyone who jumped early.

yeah, this. keep in mind that at the pro level, at least, the last leadout guy is often a very good sprinter in his own right. renshaw, for example: between stints as cav's leadout guy, he went off to be another team's designated sprinter for a while.

so the tactics/experience/timing thing is most important, but once you have that sorted out, your leadout basically needs to be a (long) sprint for you. if you're down at 5-minute power or something close to that, everyone else will blow right by you (as you saw).

So honestly in a road race at a higher level 1-2.....as a 5 minute or longer guy as I just supposed to sit in if it comes down to a field sprint? Just stay out of the way?

I assume as more of a 5 minute or longer type guy my best situation is to get into a break. And I fully understand that at Cat 1 level one must need a mega engine to form a break in most cases.

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24 Hour World TT Champs-American record holder
Fat Bike Worlds - Race Director
Insta: chris.s.apex

There are 2 different kinds of leadouts. One is delivering your guy to his final takeoff point in a good position, what people traditionally think of as a leadout. The other way you can help out a teammate at the finish is to go to the front a ways out from the line and take the pace up high enough to string out the field. This a lot easier in the lower categories since you don't have to be superhuman fast to pull this off, you only have to be willing to sacrifice your finish position ;-). If your guy can get positioned on your wheel or close to the front of the line, in will reduce the number of guys he has to contend with during the final sprint.

If you get 2 guys, one to take the pace up until the second guy takes over for a true leadout, this can work really well. That is what the Cat 1/2 teams are trying to do but they are all trying it so it kind of becomes a free for all. But if you do this in a Cat 5 or even a 4 race, you'll be the only or at worst one of only a couple teams trying it.

A leadout is about 20sec-60sec power, not 5min power. Very different types of efforts. Some keys to a good leadout:

• Leadout man ("L") is experienced and knows how to maintain good position coming into the sprint.
• L and sprinter ("S") have a rapport and know each other's tendencies.
• L and S communicate throughout, S may tell L to ramp it up or slow it down - S is watching for the swarm.
• L knows that if he darts through a hole, his S needs to be able to follow him. If L loses his S, he's screwed up.
• S needs to NOT give up L's wheel.
• L needs to know course, wind and how thew race has shaped up. All will affect where L-S need to be and how far out L can start his leadout (e.g. you go earlier on a tailwind sprint, while on a stiff headwind sprint a S with a real explosive pop may not stick his head out in the wind until the last 50-75M).
• L needs to accelerate smooth and not gap S. At the same time, ideally you are putting a gap behind S.
• Wait, wait, wait. If L goes at the wrong time, 9 times out of 10 it's too early rather than too late.
• Position, position, postion.
• Practice, practice, practice.

This stuff is WAY easier to talk about than it is to execute. We see the pros execute and think, "Oh, I'll just do that." If only it were that easy. It's not.

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Amateur recreational hobbyist cyclist
https://www.strava.com/athletes/337152
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By the time you get to thatr level you'll have way more experience in way more situations and have a much better handle on what your strengths and weaknesses is.

Suffice to say that this simply isn't a pertinent question, nor one that anyone could answer for you seeing as how you're not at that level.

At these levels, sprinting is more about positioning than kick. If you're 2-3rd wheel when the sprint starts (and not about to die), you're going to finish pretty high up, regardless of whether or not you kick at 1500 watts or 900 watts.

What worked for my team back when I was racing was a two-man lead out. I was first lead out man. I did basically what you did and has been addressed already -- kill myself to string out the field and deliver the "real" lead out man and the sprinter to the final stretch without a traffic jam to deal with. We'd form up with maybe two to go in a crit, and start working our way to the front. 1-1/2 to go or so, I could be at the front and just pushing the pace. The idea was to make the speed high enough that no one wanted to come around, everyone wanted the draft to save themself for the final, but the next couple spots behind me were team mates. I had to read the distance left, my speed, and what was happening right behind me. If some one was trying to come in and push a mate off my wheel, I moved to keep the mate in my draft and not let them lose the draft. I'd take that to about 300 or so left, at which point I was so fried I had nothing left, and lead out #2 takes over with the first jump, sprinter in tow. As stated already, lead out 2 is what is generally seen as the "real" lead out, and is a pretty good sprinter in his own right. As soon as the sprinter smells the line, he takes off. And THAT is an impressive jump. But I rarely saw it, as I was swallowed by the pack and just hoping I didn't get rammed from behind.

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Some are born to move the world to live their fantasies...

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If you want to be a successful roadie. .. you might consider working on building your <5 min power.

I had the same types of questions when I started RR this year.

I had always trained like a triathlete which is steady power. A strong roadie can do surge, steady, surge, steady

Doesn't answer your question directly, but there is hope that with the right training you can improve the short bursts!

Even at the cat 1 level, I rarely see the winners of races get a traditional leadout from their team. It might work at the NCC stuff, but in my experience it doesn't happen often locally.

To me, it seems more effective to have your team riding near the front, and then have 1 guy attack from about 1-2k out. If the pack doesn't chase, that guy wins. If the pack does chase, then somebody else is in the wind chasing and being the "leadout man" for the rest of your team that is sitting in and waiting to sprint. That's just my 2 cents.

Another problem with leadouts in lower category racing is that the riders who are talented leadout riders are always the leadout riders for the sprinters. The sprinters get the upgrade points and move to the next category. The workers don't have any points because they are working, and get stuck in the category they are in. It makes more sense for everyone on your team to learn how to win in different scenarios, rather than the whole team working for one sprinter. That changes when you are a 1 or 2.

Unlike some of the other guys here, I wouldn't suggest that a cat 5 just gets out of the way of the cat 1 or 2 guys at the end of the race. I also don't think that the cat 5 should try to lead out the cat 1s. Instead, I think the cat 5 guy should get right on the back of a cat 1 or cat 2 and get some super valuable experience of how to race the last mile of a race. If you are on the front, you aren't learning much. If you go to the back you aren't learning much. Sit on the experienced guys and try to follow their wheel all the way to the line, and you'll learn a ton.