Swimmers weigh in: Kick

Oct 21, 16 16:19

Post #1 of 26 (4708 views)

I've noticed that I am struggling in the pool (relative to others) due to what I feel is a kick deficiency. I know I don't have a strong kick, kind of just a flutter. I think this is a product of a subconscious decision at some point over the years to reduce kicking due to the need to save the legs for the rest of a triathlon.

Here's the full story. I'm 45, no formal swim background, no HS or college team, no Masters classes, etc. Just a guy who grew up around the water. In relation to my competition I'm a good swimmer, but not great by any means. This is my 4th year of triathlon and pool swimming.
My local pool is short course/yards. I've been swimming with a guy this year that is a former open water Navy rescue swimmer. He's been out of it a few years, but is still pretty strong.

In our sessions we are swimming 100's coming in between 1:24 and 1:28. 50's are usually :38 to :40. He regularly beats me by half to a full body length. Today we decided to mix it up and swim some 300's with the pull buoy. I started crushing him, coming in 3 and 4 body lengths ahead. We talked about it after and I asked about his effort level, etc on the 300's to make sure he wasn't just cruising it. He said he was swimming his best with a similar effort to the open sets.

So by taking the kick out of it, I went from a body length back to a body length up per 100. Seems like a big difference. So does this guy have a great kick or does mine just suck? I suspect it is the latter. By developing a strong kick I know I can get faster, but at what cost to my bike/run?

Re: Swimmers weigh in: Kick [Dominion] [ In reply to ]

Oct 21, 16 16:27

Post #2 of 26 (4695 views)

Are most of your races wetsuit races?

If so I wouldn't worry about it.

Got a heap of good pool swimmers in my squad who flog me in training but come out a couple min down on raceday.

Re: Swimmers weigh in: Kick [Dominion] [ In reply to ]

Oct 21, 16 16:32

Post #3 of 26 (4686 views)

Dominion wrote:

Today we decided to mix it up and swim some 300's with the pull buoy. I started crushing him, coming in 3 and 4 body lengths ahead. We talked about it after and I asked about his effort level, etc on the 300's to make sure he wasn't just cruising it. He said he was swimming his best with a similar effort to the open sets.

i'm far from an expert here, but i think this is a lot more likely to be a body position issue than a kick issue. buoy brings up your hips and improves your body position. he also might just be better at shorter intervals...more speed, less endurance.

Re: Swimmers weigh in: Kick [Dominion] [ In reply to ]

Oct 21, 16 16:34

Post #4 of 26 (4680 views)

You didn't just take your kick out of it, you got your legs out of the way and reduced your drag significantly. One doesn't use the kick to improve body position, one uses your musculature. Or a pull buoy.

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"

Re: Swimmers weigh in: Kick [Dominion] [ In reply to ]

Oct 21, 16 16:35

Post #5 of 26 (4677 views)

It's nice to have a strong kick for a number of reasons. At the start, it helps you break away from crowds. Around buoys, same thing. You can bridge up to groups. I would never swim a triathlon with a really hard kick, but think of it as afterburners for short, limited uses! Plus, in the pool, it allows you to swim with faster swimmers, develop leg and core strength, etc. Train your kick. Do kick only sets. Get used to kicking. It will help your swim.

Whenever I do descending 100's, if I have to descend, say, 5, I usually swim like this:
1: Very little to no kick. Just a light flicking of the toes to help with rotation. Usually around 1:30/100m.
2-3: More effort in to my 2-beat kick. Slightly increased turn over. 1:26-1:27/100m.
3-4: 6 beat kick of moderate intensity. Slightly increased turnover. 1:20-1:25/100m.
5: Hammering out a strong 6 beat, high turn over. 90% effort. 1:15-1:18 100/m.

During all of this, my pull is relatively the same, effort wise. My turnover increases with each set, but, the real difference is in the kick. The amount, the strength, and the cadence. I faster kick means a higher rate of rotation and turnover.

A moderate 2-beat kick would probably shave a minute or so from an IM swim time when compared to no kicking, and have no real effect on your overall performance if you are used to kicking.

Long Chile was a silly place.

Re: Swimmers weigh in: Kick [Brett runs] [ In reply to ]

Oct 21, 16 16:36

Post #6 of 26 (4674 views)

Brett runs wrote:

Are most of your races wetsuit races?

If so I wouldn't worry about it.

Got a heap of good pool swimmers in my squad who flog me in training but come out a couple min down on raceday.

My races are half and half. I'm in the south so usually get wet suit races early and late in the season, but the middle is always warm water.

Not worrying about it has always been my approach, but just seeing the difference today got me thinking that maybe I am leaving a lot on the table in the swim by not developing a stronger kick.

Re: Swimmers weigh in: Kick [Dominion] [ In reply to ]

Oct 21, 16 16:44

Post #7 of 26 (4662 views)

After watching many swimmers over several years at various Masters groups practices, I've come to realize that the vast majority of people are hampered by their kick/legs/feet/whatever. Sometimes it's knee bend, sometimes it's scissor kick, sometimes it's just wasted effort - but all in all, kicking is a huge net negative for most people.

Like the other night, I was watching a Masters group swim. The guys in Lane 1 (all former college swimmers) had a faint, weak, two-beat kick for all the main sets. The guys and gals in Lanes 2 and 3 (slower swimmers) all had big kicks with lots of knee bend, etc. So take that for what you will.

If it were me I would work on using your legs to improve body position rather than trying to develop a "strong kick."

Re: Swimmers weigh in: Kick [climber7] [ In reply to ]

Oct 21, 16 16:44

Post #8 of 26 (4662 views)

climber7 wrote:

Dominion wrote:

Today we decided to mix it up and swim some 300's with the pull buoy. I started crushing him, coming in 3 and 4 body lengths ahead. We talked about it after and I asked about his effort level, etc on the 300's to make sure he wasn't just cruising it. He said he was swimming his best with a similar effort to the open sets.

i'm far from an expert here, but i think this is a lot more likely to be a body position issue than a kick issue. buoy brings up your hips and improves your body position. he also might just be better at shorter intervals...more speed, less endurance.

Body position could be a contributing factor but I think my position is pretty good. A pull buoy may only slightly improve it. I'm 6'5 with long arms and pretty strong shoulders, so I feel like my swimming effort is almost all upper body, a powerful stroke but no kick to go with it.

Re: Swimmers weigh in: Kick [BCtriguy1] [ In reply to ]

Oct 21, 16 16:49

Post #9 of 26 (4654 views)

BCtriguy1 wrote:

It's nice to have a strong kick for a number of reasons. At the start, it helps you break away from crowds. Around buoys, same thing. You can bridge up to groups. I would never swim a triathlon with a really hard kick, but think of it as afterburners for short, limited uses! Plus, in the pool, it allows you to swim with faster swimmers, develop leg and core strength, etc. Train your kick. Do kick only sets. Get used to kicking. It will help your swim.

Whenever I do descending 100's, if I have to descend, say, 5, I usually swim like this:
1: Very little to no kick. Just a light flicking of the toes to help with rotation. Usually around 1:30/100m.
2-3: More effort in to my 2-beat kick. Slightly increased turn over. 1:26-1:27/100m.
3-4: 6 beat kick of moderate intensity. Slightly increased turnover. 1:20-1:25/100m.
5: Hammering out a strong 6 beat, high turn over. 90% effort. 1:15-1:18 100/m.

During all of this, my pull is relatively the same, effort wise. My turnover increases with each set, but, the real difference is in the kick. The amount, the strength, and the cadence. I faster kick means a higher rate of rotation and turnover.

A moderate 2-beat kick would probably shave a minute or so from an IM swim time when compared to no kicking, and have no real effect on your overall performance if you are used to kicking.

Thanks for your response. I think the key is in your last sentence. If you are used to it... That's what I need to aspire to. Being able to have a stronger kick and still be ready to hammer the bike.

Re: Swimmers weigh in: Kick [Dominion] [ In reply to ]

Oct 21, 16 17:11

Post #10 of 26 (4618 views)

Honestly, I feel better on the bike after using my kick rather then not. I usually use it for the first few hundred as a 6 beat kick, then go down to a light two beat, then ramp it back up for the last few hundred. When I don't, my legs feel sluggish.

Do a few hundred kick as part of warm up a cool down. That alone will add up to some decent kicking meters over time. I rarely do dedicated kick sets. Sometimes the odd set of hard 10x25, or 50. Nothing to long and drawn out, just nice and short to build power.

Long Chile was a silly place.

Re: Swimmers weigh in: Kick [Dominion] [ In reply to ]

Oct 21, 16 19:14

Post #11 of 26 (4517 views)

@ OP - Also note that just because he's slower with the buoy than not does NOT mean his is a great kicker. I know that seems like the most 'logical' conclusion, as you're not kicking with the buoy, but many triathletes and even swimmers, myself included, have a minimal kick and STILL go slower with a buoy.

I swim -5 sec/100 with the buoy compared to without the buoy. I think SnappingT said he had about 50% of his athletes go slower with the buoy or something like that. So being slower with the buoy does not mean you have a more effective kick without the buoy. (I seriously feel that in my case, the +5sec/100 is due to the increased drag caused by the buoy - I can actually feel it tug!)

Re: Swimmers weigh in: Kick [lightheir] [ In reply to ]

Oct 22, 16 7:45

Post #12 of 26 (4332 views)

Kicking in long distances generally doesn't help. But seen both models where fast people kick and do not kick . I'm a 1:05/100 swimmer and do not kick. /brag!

Re: Swimmers weigh in: Kick [Dominion] [ In reply to ]

Oct 22, 16 9:36

Post #13 of 26 (4283 views)

Most good swimmers seem to have a good kick, i.e. they can do fast times just doing kick, but as far as I have ever been able to tell, they achieve this by having better efficiency of propulsion rather than working harder. For example, my 1500m PB is just under 18 minutes, and my kick is very mediocre, my best time for 400m kick is 7:52. Another masters swimmer at a nearby club was 2 mins quicker than me over 1500m, doing around 16 mins dead, and I was told he could comfortably get below 6 mins for 400m kick. When racing, he wasn't visibly kicking hard, but my feeling was that he was most likely getting the same superior propulsion compared to me that allowed him to be so much quicker at kicking, i.e. we were probably expending similar energy with our kicks in both scenarios and he was just getting more propulsion in return in both scenarios.

So I would work on your kick, but on efficiency rather than becoming able to sustain a higher workrate. Set your effort at what feels like a low power output, e.g. 100W, and work on getting your kick times down at that power.

Re: Swimmers weigh in: Kick [Steve Irwin] [ In reply to ]

Oct 22, 16 11:22

Post #14 of 26 (4220 views)

Steve Irwin wrote:

Most good swimmers seem to have a good kick, i.e. they can do fast times just doing kick, but as far as I have ever been able to tell, they achieve this by having better efficiency of propulsion rather than working harder. For example, my 1500m PB is just under 18 minutes, and my kick is very mediocre, my best time for 400m kick is 7:52. Another masters swimmer at a nearby club was 2 mins quicker than me over 1500m, doing around 16 mins dead, and I was told he could comfortably get below 6 mins for 400m kick. When racing, he wasn't visibly kicking hard, but my feeling was that he was most likely getting the same superior propulsion compared to me that allowed him to be so much quicker at kicking, i.e. we were probably expending similar energy with our kicks in both scenarios and he was just getting more propulsion in return in both scenarios.

So I would work on your kick, but on efficiency rather than becoming able to sustain a higher workrate. Set your effort at what feels like a low power output, e.g. 100W, and work on getting your kick times down at that power.

I was thinking about this the other day, and it's like the difference between thrashing with your arms and having zero streamiline and catching no water and having a smooth entry, streamline and a solid catch. My feeling is on the kick side, a combination of better streamline, and a superior "harmonic" motion results in pushing off laminar water rather than thrashing through all kinds of turbulent water. I am not sure if my explanation is coming across, but I feel a big difference going from kicking with short "sinker fins" vs bare foot. Barefoot, I feel I am pushing against a lot of turbulent water and going nowhere and the water is all separating and splashing. It's like there is this low pressure hole behind my feet slowing me down to use a biking analogy on air separation.

Re: Swimmers weigh in: Kick [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]

Oct 23, 16 8:08

Post #15 of 26 (4011 views)

the bigger concern for me often is not training the kick, then getting into a OWS where you need to kick a lot. For example a race with more waves, more congestion, I'll kick more. Any time i sight, I'm throwing in a hard kick to pop my heat up without using my back too much.

A good, well timed kick anchors you so you can leverage a good catch and pull, which requires a strong core as well to transfer the energy. Without a kick, you'll be relying on the mass of your legs and they will act like a horizontal stabilizer in the moving water, but will still sway back and forth slightly which adds drag and motion.

Efficient swimming is this combination of making your body long and small, to reduce drag, while at the same time optimizing the leverage of your arms and your large back muscles and core to provide propulsion. The kick is an important element. Those collegiate swimmers may be kicking lightly, but their kicks are instinctively well timed and are highly effective in their motion.

TrainingBible Coaching
http://www.trainingbible.com

Re: Swimmers weigh in: Kick [Dominion] [ In reply to ]

Oct 23, 16 13:38

Post #16 of 26 (3920 views)

Here's an article I wrote about the importance of developing a kick in the swim. If you have any questions, let me know.

Tim

http://www.active.com/...cking-while-swimming

http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com

Re: Swimmers weigh in: Kick [SnappingT] [ In reply to ]

Oct 23, 16 14:41

Post #17 of 26 (3882 views)

SnappingT wrote:

Here's an article I wrote about the importance of developing a kick in the swim. If you have any questions, let me know.

Timhttp://www.active.com/...cking-while-swimming[/quote[/url]]

Thanks for the link. Your first sentence in that article pretty much sums up what my swim philosophy has been. The philosophy I am now questioning. I'm really not sure what I am looking at in those graphs however.

Re: Swimmers weigh in: Kick [Dominion] [ In reply to ]

Oct 23, 16 14:55

Post #18 of 26 (3870 views)

It's been my experience too.

The graphs are velocity measured in meters/second.

Tim

http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com

Re: Swimmers weigh in: Kick [Dominion] [ In reply to ]

Nov 5, 16 21:09

Post #19 of 26 (3510 views)

Dominion wrote:

climber7 wrote:

Dominion wrote:

Today we decided to mix it up and swim some 300's with the pull buoy. I started crushing him, coming in 3 and 4 body lengths ahead. We talked about it after and I asked about his effort level, etc on the 300's to make sure he wasn't just cruising it. He said he was swimming his best with a similar effort to the open sets.

i'm far from an expert here, but i think this is a lot more likely to be a body position issue than a kick issue. buoy brings up your hips and improves your body position. he also might just be better at shorter intervals...more speed, less endurance.

Body position could be a contributing factor but I think my position is pretty good. A pull buoy may only slightly improve it. I'm 6'5 with long arms and pretty strong shoulders, so I feel like my swimming effort is almost all upper body, a powerful stroke but no kick to go with it.

My impression from watching literally 1000s of swimmers is that most, but not all, guys get most of their propulsion from their pull. Sure, the very fastest always have a strong kick and their kick is a significant part of why they are super fast. To have a kick that really contributes propulsion, you have to have very flexible ankles, knees, and hips, such that your legs can act as a whip and your feet/toes can act as fins. While this flex can be developed to some extent, it is mostly innate. I remember seeing this kid, maybe 20-21 yrs old, get in the pool one day and he was swimming with his head out of water with pretty poor form, maybe going 1:00/50 m at best. Then he grabbed a kick-board and he was just motoring at 55 sec/50 m, so actually faster than he swam. Now obv once he got his head in the water, learned to breathe, and pull properly, he could swim faster that he could kick, but reason i bring this up is that really good to great kickers are fricking born, not made, and really you have to be a really strong kicker to get propulsion from your kick.

So let me ask you: how is your kick right now??? Can you kick anywhere close to how fast you can swim, like within 10 sec per 50 of your swim pace with equal effort??? If so, you could prob get your kick to contribute propulsion but if not, then your kick will continue to be mainly for balance.

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Re: Swimmers weigh in: Kick [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]

Nov 6, 16 5:24

Post #20 of 26 (3391 views)

ericmulk wrote:

So let me ask you: how is your kick right now??? Can you kick anywhere close to how fast you can swim, like within 10 sec per 50 of your swim pace with equal effort???.

Not even close. It's almost all pull for me. I think I just need to keep doing what I am doing. My swim partner must just have a very strong kick. take that away and I can beat him.

Re: Swimmers weigh in: Kick [Dominion] [ In reply to ]

Nov 6, 16 5:38

Post #21 of 26 (3372 views)

Sounds like you have a hips/sinking leg problem that the buoy helps with. That said developing a kick and better hips/leg position would probably be an improvement for your swimming. Vertical kick drill as something I've recently run across that seem to be good at that. Doesn't have to be a super hard kick, just a "good" kick.

Re: Swimmers weigh in: Kick [klehner] [ In reply to ]

Nov 6, 16 6:18

Post #22 of 26 (3337 views)

klehner wrote:

You didn't just take your kick out of it, you got your legs out of the way and reduced your drag significantly. One doesn't use the kick to improve body position, one uses your musculature. Or a pull buoy.

My first thought, too.

The kick has a direct propulsive component in a sprint. But it diminishes at longer distances. On a single, max effort 100, I'm a good 10 seconds faster without the pull buoy. Stretch that out to 1000 yards, my swim speed is only about 3 seconds a hundred faster than my pull speed (without paddles), ~12:45 vs ~13:15.

Something that newbies often don't recognize is that a properly timed and executed kick adds power to the pull. It's much more important to have correct body position, good core connection between your upper and lower body, and proper kick timing than it is to be able to belt out monster sets behind a kick board, especially if your objective is to be a better long distance (400M or longer) swimmer.

"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"

Re: Swimmers weigh in: Kick [Dominion] [ In reply to ]

Nov 6, 16 9:14

Post #23 of 26 (3260 views)

Dominion wrote:

ericmulk wrote:

So let me ask you: how is your kick right now??? Can you kick anywhere close to how fast you can swim, like within 10 sec per 50 of your swim pace with equal effort???.

Not even close. It's almost all pull for me. I think I just need to keep doing what I am doing. My swim partner must just have a very strong kick. take that away and I can beat him.

As someone suggested earlier, you two should try some 300s w/o the buoy, as it could be you're just a better distance swimmer and he's a better sprinter. In any case, just keep working at it and gradually the delta between your swim speed and your pull speed should come down to zero. The harder you pull the higher you ride in the water. :)

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Re: Swimmers weigh in: Kick [xeon] [ In reply to ]

Nov 6, 16 11:00

Post #24 of 26 (3203 views)

No, I don't think that is the case. My legs feel lower in the water with the buoy between my thighs than just just straight swimming. I'm going to get some video of the two for comparison to make sure, but I think my leg position is actually pretty good. I have a very faint kick that breaks right at the water line. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't leaving anything on the table with a lack of propulsive kick. From most of the responses, I'm taking it that I should continue to use the kick for balance and maybe try to develop it a little, but not to obsess over it being a huge factor. I looked back over my logs and I've dropped my 400 TT time from 6:56 down to 6:04 over the past 2 years. That is pool scy. Not very fast for some of you, I know, but I feel like I am heading in the right direction, just need to keep working.

Last edited by: Dominion: Nov 6, 16 11:01

Re: Swimmers weigh in: Kick [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]

Nov 6, 16 11:16

Post #25 of 26 (3189 views)

ericmulk wrote:

Dominion wrote:

ericmulk wrote:

So let me ask you: how is your kick right now??? Can you kick anywhere close to how fast you can swim, like within 10 sec per 50 of your swim pace with equal effort???.

Not even close. It's almost all pull for me. I think I just need to keep doing what I am doing. My swim partner must just have a very strong kick. take that away and I can beat him.

As someone suggested earlier, you two should try some 300s w/o the buoy, as it could be you're just a better distance swimmer and he's a better sprinter. In any case, just keep working at it and gradually the delta between your swim speed and your pull speed should come down to zero. The harder you pull the higher you ride in the water. :)

Thanks for your input, Eric. It is appreciated. You are one of the guys I was hoping to hear from with this thread. ;)

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