I found that they helped me keep my hand and forearm working as a single unit. That being said, I also found that my stroke felt more awkward with them, and I was definitely slower when using them. All in all I didn't find them that useful.

---

ECMGN Therapy Silicon Valley:
Depression, Neurocognitive problems, Dementias (Testing and Evaluation), Trauma and PTSD, Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI)

I ended up not using them too frequently because of that.

This might be a good place for the real swimmers to give us some input here. I've seen and tried a variety of catch and pull techniques. An elbow that leads on the way back through the water definitely does not work well as the point of the elbow cuts through the water rather than catching the water.

Considering aero or fluid dynamics for the catch and pull, I've seen rather effective straight arm pulls underwater where the swimmer is "winging" it with a straight arm. I've also seen effective bent "wings" as long as the elbow is not leading the way under the water.

I'm trying and using both as a way to avoid getting tired of doing the same thing over and over. At first, I wanted to get down the "perfect" catch and pull and repeat it over and over because we are talking endurance, right? Then it occurred to me that I vary my stride while running and my cadence on the bike to go even further and maintain a good pace.

Now I'm a slow swimmer who may be slow because I'm older and didn't really start doing yardage until later in life so I'd be interested in the swimmers take on this.

---

Indoor Triathlete - I thought I was right, until I realized I was wrong.

I use mine every now and then. I find they provide a good as a physical reminder of what the front 1/3 of the stroke should feel like. I don't use them for any main sets or anything though, just stoke correction.

I actually LIKE that they feel my stroke feel awkward - I find that if I'm doing a correct EVF, the fulcrum isn't a limiter, but once I start getting sloppy (even a little fatigue), the elbow drops, and the fulcrum prevents me from swimming with that dropped elbow. At least for me, it isn't awkward in the way that it's damaging my stroke - it's awkward because it's forcing correct EVF, no matter what.

as a competitive swimmer we have them, but rarely use them. haven't at all this year. I think for me the thing that has given me the most improvement is the finis finger (sculling) paddles, using them with the middle finger strap tight and the wrist strap loose, focusing on evf.

I suspect you competitive swimmer have a lot less need for them than us self-taught adult-onset triathlete swimmers, as your EVF is likely good enough that you benefit little from them.

I have paddles without wrist straps, but I'm finding that I unfortunately still can drop the elbow with them, as there's no penalty for dropping the elbow and flexing the wrist (the paddle stays on fine, better, even.)

Thanks for the post on the finis fulcrum lightheir. I am surprised people aren't all over this...

Yes, even with the finis agility paddles you are rewarded by dropping the wrist as the paddle stays on.

After working on EVF I am sure that my technique is better as I can feel the lats engaging. Problem is that this doesn't seem to translate to immediate speed... I was expecting my times to magically drop straight away with my new and improved form...

Have you noticed any improvement in times now given another couple of months have passed since you posted?

I'm being dead honest here. Pretty much near-zero increase in speed despite the significantly improved EVF motion. Literally like max 1sec/100, at best.

You may have read some of my other posts about this, but what my experience with swimming is coming down to after years of learning as an adult and especially a lot of Vasa trainer work, is that once you're an 'intermediate' swimmer, like 1:50/100 pace or faster, it's almost all engine to get to FOP paces. You can change things like EVF, kick, breathing, etc., but all in combination, they'll net <5sec/100 compared to the engine improvement, which willl give you the jump from 1:50 to sub 1:20/100, even with almost no technical gains.

I say this from direct experience - I made ALL of my gains from 1:45 to 1:20/100yd pace in the last year through several blocks of Vasa trainer where I was doing 6-8hrs Vasa + 0.5-1hrs per week of pool swimming. The Vasa alone caused huge jumps in speed that were immediately noticeable in the pool with the much improved power and turnover, whereas all the smoothness and technical gains I have actually resulted in WORSE times, mainly because the technique training subtracted from my Vasa power training. I really wish I could say the technique was responsible for some gain, but I'd be lying.

As is, I've said this like a broken record, but any fish here who is swimming sub 1:20 pace (or even sub 1:10pace) would STILL be crushing 1:40/100yd swimmers, even with a drag suit, or even doing a one-armed stroke with one arm tied to their waist. They have power, power, and more power, and this pretty much proves it. It's an outright lie when some fish say "I have the fitness of a MOP 1:45/100 swimmer, but thanks to my magic technique, I can hold 1:10s/100 for 2 miles", or more realistically, "you 1:45-50/100yd swimmers should be swimming as fast as me at 1:15/100, but the difference between you and me isn't power,power, power, it's techinque, technique, and maybe a little power." What I'm finding from direct experience is contradictory from the standard swimmer coaching mantra, in that it's been power, power, and more power for me, after getting decent body position in the water. I can even pull with a 100% dropped elbow and only lose 1-2s/100.

 
I'm being dead honest here. Pretty much near-zero increase in speed despite the significantly improved EVF motion. Literally like max 1sec/100, at best.

You may have read some of my other posts about this, but what my experience with swimming is coming down to after years of learning as an adult and especially a lot of Vasa trainer work, is that once you're an 'intermediate' swimmer, like 1:50/100 pace or faster, it's almost all engine to get to FOP paces. You can change things like EVF, kick, breathing, etc., but all in combination, they'll net <5sec/100 compared to the engine improvement, which willl give you the jump from 1:50 to sub 1:20/100, even with almost no technical gains.

I say this from direct experience - I made ALL of my gains from 1:45 to 1:20/100yd pace in the last year through several blocks of Vasa trainer where I was doing 6-8hrs Vasa + 0.5-1hrs per week of pool swimming. The Vasa alone caused huge jumps in speed that were immediately noticeable in the pool with the much improved power and turnover, whereas all the smoothness and technical gains I have actually resulted in WORSE times, mainly because the technique training subtracted from my Vasa power training. I really wish I could say the technique was responsible for some gain, but I'd be lying.

As is, I've said this like a broken record, but any fish here who is swimming sub 1:20 pace (or even sub 1:10pace) would STILL be crushing 1:40/100yd swimmers, even with a drag suit, or even doing a one-armed stroke with one arm tied to their waist. They have power, power, and more power, and this pretty much proves it. It's an outright lie when some fish say "I have the fitness of a MOP 1:45/100 swimmer, but thanks to my magic technique, I can hold 1:10s/100 for 2 miles", or more realistically, "you 1:45-50/100yd swimmers should be swimming as fast as me at 1:15/100, but the difference between you and me isn't power,power, power, it's techinque, technique, and maybe a little power." What I'm finding from direct experience is contradictory from the standard swimmer coaching mantra, in that it's been power, power, and more power for me, after getting decent body position in the water. I can even pull with a 100% dropped elbow and only lose 1-2s/100.[/quote]
Appreciate the honesty. What you are saying correlates with all of my conclusions.

I have heard a few pros say that when they want to crank up their swim they just punch out sessions with paddles and a band until they are strong. Although, I am sure they have a good technique to start with.

I think that once technique is at an adequate level it is about specific power. I've had young kids swim past me hardly exerting themselves, they obviously don't have more power but maybe more swim specific power or power to drag? (if there is such thing).

Think I will still get the finis fulcrum. It will be good to help correct my ridiculously elevated hand which makes it look like I am waving to the people in the lane beside me :)

LH - I'm not sure why some fish say they have "low fitness" yet can go 1:10/100 scy for 3500 yds, but perhaps it is b/c at their peak in college, they could hold 1:00 or maybe even sub-1:00 for 10,000 scy, so relatively speaking they are "out of shape". Also, guys with that kind of talent are also kind of trying to be modest, i think, but these are likely guys who swam their first 100 under 1:00 at like age 10. Have you ever looked at the USA Swimming age group records??? The 10-yr old boys record for 100 scy is 53.1, 200 is 1:57.9, and 500 is 5:14.1, and these swims are at AGE 10!!! Holy hell Batman, that is some incredibly fast swimming for a 10-yr old!!!

Regarding the technique issue, sure, you have to have "pretty good" form but not perfect. Lots of international caliber swimmers have strokes that are not perfect at all but they have lots of power and a big aerobic engine so they still go fast.

---

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Appreciate the honesty. What you are saying correlates with all of my conclusions.

I have heard a few pros say that when they want to crank up their swim they just punch out sessions with paddles and a band until they are strong. Although, I am sure they have a good technique to start with.

I think that once technique is at an adequate level it is about specific power. I've had young kids swim past me hardly exerting themselves, they obviously don't have more power but maybe more swim specific power or power to drag? (if there is such thing).

Think I will still get the finis fulcrum. It will be good to help correct my ridiculously elevated hand which makes it look like I am waving to the people in the lane beside me :)[/quote]
The little kids going past you likely have a lot more power:hydrodynamics, and almost certainly a lot more arm-swim endurance than you do. Sure, if they had your frontal surface they wouldn't be as fast with their little arms, but for their size, they're proportionally stronger.

Those fast kids have a lot more power than you think. Sure, if you gave them your body drag and used their arms, it probably wouldn't work, but for their size, it's significant.

I spent quite awhile looking for these magical kids who swim fast with seemingly no effort that people instantly bring up when I talk about power. There's a serious 12 year old girls swim club that swam before my masters group, and the fastest girls are probably around 1:10/100 or so. Sorry, but no such magical kids there. These girls practice hard, do a lot of effort/intensity, and to prove their power, they plow through the water with paddles as big as the ones I use, at a significantly faster rate.

I think the common thing to do is to misjudge a kid by just looking at their stage of development and conclude "they can't possibly have power", when in reality, they can have elite-level power and still look tiny (Alistair Brownlee looks like a child and is a monster in all 3 disciplines.) And just because someone makes it look easy doesn't mean they are lacking power. Since I've gotten down to 1:20 pace for intervals, I've had a few of my ex-lanemates in masters remark on my improvement and say "wow you got such good technique - you're so much smoother than before!" when in reality, I'm more choppy when swimming at that speed - they're just confusing the appearance of the 1:20 pace compared to a 1:45 or 2:00 pace swimmer - looks like magic technique, but I can assure you that in my case it's power, power and more power.

Personal opinion, I have a set that we share around. The largest benefit is for BOP-Mop swimmers who are putting on the brakes at full (or close-IE upturned hand) extension. In this situation with warm up or certain intervals I think they help.

Once an athlete has a reasonable catch and is say a reasonable MOP or sub 1:50 100LCM then I give them to another swimmer.

The issue with perfect EVF say thinking of SUN Yang is that the catch happens first and then you need internal shoulder rotation before the elbow brakes, IE the sequence of events is good catch first (wrist brakes) then internal rotation of the shoulder to facilitate (lastly) a bend in the elbow….talking perfect EVF freestyle, which is not always perfect freestyle for any one person.

This is extremely hard for AG triathletes even on dry land with bands or with "jonnyO's" swiss ball roll workout, perhaps they are intended for EVF but I prefer them for initial catch, again maybe a useful tool for MOP to BOP swimmers.

Maurice

IMO- the swimming tool is only as good as the swimmer is smart. Tools such as the finis forearm COULD have a use, assuming the user knows what their problem is and appropriately selects a tool to help solve it. Then, and here's the important part, they take the tool off and replicate the technique they just gained. However, many swimmers/ semi-swimmers use a tool and think that their issues are going to magically be solved via toys. When they drop the toys, they resume their regularly scheduled broken technique. If that's the case, then the swimmer/ semi-swimmer would have been better off without it.

Here's the kicker- if you know that you have an issue with something like your early vertical forearm position, you are 85% of the way there to fixing the problem. That insight may or may not be fixed with a toy. However, putting on the toy is not really a good diagnostic tool for those who are sketchy in knowledge about their technique. I'd suspect that putting on something like a Fulcrum could mess up a good swimmer's technique, since now they have this funky thing that on their arm that changes what their brain is normally focused on. Proceed with caution when working with such tools.

---

---

---

Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/

Can I ask a really stoopid question? When people refer to paces (like the 1:50 LCM noted above), are they referring to race pace or time for a single 100m interval, all out?

---

Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

I don't think the Finis Fulcrum will screw up a good swimmer's stroke. Just my opinion, but it doesn't really force anything particular bad about a stroke.

I do agree that tools (toys) are best for those with a specific fix in mind. For me, it was very clear from my video that the dropped elbow was accompanied by a really flexed wrist to compensate - the fulcrum really fixes both very well. Not all swimmers drop like I do, but a lot do, and it's a pretty good clue that if you feel really awful with the Fulcrum on, it's probably worth taking a look at your EVF.

I view the pull buoy and ankle band (I've spent a lot of time with both) the same way. They're not going to make you perfect, but for sure, if you have serious issues swimming with them, it's worth taking a hard look at why exactly it's so hard for you, as it'll likely reveal a form flaw error.

The Finis fulcrum will also force a EVF in some like me with a dropped elbow far, far better than just telling yourself to do it, or even a top coach screaming at you to do it, because it literally forces you do it, even at cost of your swim propulsion until you get it right.

It varies per person, and yes, it's a constant issue on forums. I tend to mean Oly race pace, so when I say I swim 1:25s, I can hold that for a good 25-30mins or do something like 10 x 200 at that pace with <7sec rest.

Sorry I should clarify, reasonable MOP swimmers hitting multiples(10-20) of 1:45-1:50 and leaving on 2:00-2:05min. Often with pull.

LCM

Maurice

Tried them out once and thought they were just another gimmick to make money from adult-onset swimmers.

One drill my old team used to reinforce a high elbow catch (or more accurately, to dissuade against dropping the elbow) was to use 'Fist Gloves' or hold tennis balls in each hand while wearing an ankle band. You could just clench your hands into fists, but then it's too easy to cheat. In order to make any forward progress, you have little choice but to get your forearms into the correct position. Your hands will feel like giant paddles once you take off the gloves or release the tennis balls.

Despite what you say I can definitely pull dropped elbow and all with fully clenched hands, and lose very little speed (my turnover goes up a lot.) I've got a video of myself that shows it. But it does help some on the EVF - the Finis though exaggerates it even more. I don't think it's gimmicky at all, unless you're already one of those who doesn't drop the elbow so much already - in that case you won't notice much of a difference.

The Forearm Fulcrum is actually a good tool to use. However, what will get you into a high elbow catch is body position, the fulcrum will not fix or encourage this. The best drill to feel pressure on the forearm is the fist drill as noted in previous threads. Not a clinched fist, but gently fold hand like holding a butterfly.

That said I use the forearm fulcrums on swimmers to help remove "the claw" on recovery arm. A common problem with swimmers/triathletes is reaching recovery arm reaching too far forward, wrist bends 90 degs, fingers down with tense flat hand ("the claw"). Recovery arm lays flat on entry with 90 deg hand entering first putting all pressure on rotator, as well as making it very difficult to find or get into a high elbow catch. The fulcrum will not allow swimmer to form "the claw" on recovery without losing or releasing the fulcrum.

What will get you into a high elbow catch is good body position...
---------

Exactly. I doubt this toy hurts you but this is a "tail wags the dog" device.

The "Stop in the name of love". Most people understand what I mean I say it that way, but folks under 30 have no idea what I am saying.

Interestingly enough, the late Doug Stern, who was one of the first slowtwitch board favorites, had no problem with the swimmer's hand gliding back up toward the surface as they extend. He didn't exactly encourage it, but didn't have a problem with it. That isn't / wasn't an opinion I share and not one I have seen espoused anywhere else.

I realize your post was, um, seven years ago, but am hoping you or lightheir might still be on this forum:

What you describe is where I am: 1.50/100, and I've been here for a number of years. I've done lots of work on changing stroke technique to be more efficient but not gained any speed.

So, my neophyte question is: when you talk about "engine" do you mean just overall power/strength? And if so, do you have recommendations besides the Vasa?

I have realized a couple of things after some filming done last week: 1) I don't accelerate in my stroke very much, am more "monospeed" and 2) I just don't have a strong pull, in any stroke.

While I do plan to keep working on technique, EVF, etc, I want to figure out how to improve my engine!

Thanks in advance to you or anyone else who might see this for any info/advice/tips...
xLisa