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Swim DPS (dist per stroke)
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I kinda reshaped my pull by first connecting my shoulders/drill then using the forearm paddles.which all worked well.

I was chatting with the coach about our friend, OW champ that trains at the pool. She says his DPS is ridiculous. And that is true. He makes a 25M pool look like a walmart wading pool you get for the kids. He plays ping pong in there bouncing off the end walls, with a stroke or two thrown in.

Of course I exaggerate but man it sure seems like that.

So besides have less drag, how do you build greater DPS? I visualize a "T" , line on top is shoulders, vertical part is your spine. And the top of the T has to wobble diagonally, so the front shoulder pushing ahead, rear of course moving back. The more the wobble the greater the range - correct?

I did some DPS work today at the 50M cause I now have a clock to look at. The more I stretched the lower the time, despite a lower stroke rate.

In past I've tried to speed up using increased cadence, more effort/muscle into the water. This was the opposite, it was slower, less effort and still faster.

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Re: Swim DPS (dist per stroke) [SharkFM] [ In reply to ]
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Be long, tall, powerful and smooth. Pull got damn hard, too

//Noob triathlete//bike commuter//ex-swimmer//slower than you

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Re: Swim DPS (dist per stroke) [Freddo] [ In reply to ]
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I've read some interesting things about stroke length, glide, stroke rate etc. On the one hand you want to be getting the most out of each stroke yet you don't want to be gliding to far with each one - essentially pausing between each stroke as you generate a micro stall. This means each subsequent stroke has to be stronger to pick up any lost momentum. Its a timing thing where you have to glide yet get the next stroke in just before you loose that momentum. If you focus too much on a low syroke rate you may just be making things much harder for yourself.

If you look at the ITU athletes, their stroke rates are ridiculously rapid, however they get the maximum out of each stroke. So, good stroke multiplied by a faster stroke rate.

I notice a lot of my swim buddies cut their stroke short (i.e. don't push much past the hip) in pursuit of a faster stroke rate, I reckon they probably loose 10% of their overall stroke length. You probably have this already nailed but I'd take a look at this part of your stroke first.

Personally I wouldn't worry too much about how few strokes you take per length but work on getting a good, efficient (full) stroke, once you have this nailed I'd work on the stroke rate.
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Re: Swim DPS (dist per stroke) [Stevie_A] [ In reply to ]
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Stevie_A wrote:
I've read some interesting things about stroke length, glide, stroke rate etc. On the one hand you want to be getting the most out of each stroke yet you don't want to be gliding to far with each one - essentially pausing between each stroke as you generate a micro stall. This means each subsequent stroke has to be stronger to pick up any lost momentum. Its a timing thing where you have to glide yet get the next stroke in just before you loose that momentum.

I notice a lot of my swim buddies cut their stroke short (i.e. don't push much past the hip) in pursuit of a faster stroke rate, I reckon they probably loose 10% of their overall stroke length.

The last push from the hips back is the fastest part of the stroke, it is also the most streamlined, skimp on this and you loose serious speed.
Gliding is good.
You are traveling at maximum speed with with excellent streamlining. This is a tri you are doing, not a 50m sprint.

I lap around 16 strokes for a 50m pool and can lap comfortably on 6 strokes in a 25m.

Distance swimming is all about floating and streamlining, not bashing the water into submission.
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Re: Swim DPS (dist per stroke) [lyrrad] [ In reply to ]
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you mean 32 and 12 strokes, right? 16 cycles (50m) or 6 cycles (25m)..

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Re: Swim DPS (dist per stroke) [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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Always been understood that a stroke is a full cycle in any of the strokes in my world.
You mericans usually come up with strange things though.
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Re: Swim DPS (dist per stroke) [lyrrad] [ In reply to ]
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lyrrad wrote:
Always been understood that a stroke is a full cycle in any of the strokes in my world.
You mericans usually come up with strange things though.

Hey, no need for name-calling here!!!

;-)

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Re: Swim DPS (dist per stroke) [lyrrad] [ In reply to ]
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for the long axis strokes, its each arm around here. e.g. doing backstroke counting strokes from the flags to the turn its 3 strokes for me (right left right ... turn). Your way, it would be counting half strokes....

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Re: Swim DPS (dist per stroke) [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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This sums up what I was explaining...

http://www.swimsmooth.com/strokerate.html



"There was a trend at the end of the 20th century amongst age group triathletes and swimmers towards developing really long strokes - to try and go as far as possible on one stroke because it was seen to be more efficient. (aside: the elite triathlon and swimming world didn't subscribe to this theory).
Swimmers are now realising that there's more to fast efficient freestyle than the length of your stroke and that an overly-long stroke can be less efficient because of the introduction of dead spots and pauses."


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Re: Swim DPS (dist per stroke) [lyrrad] [ In reply to ]
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lyrrad wrote:
Stevie_A wrote:
I've read some interesting things about stroke length, glide, stroke rate etc. On the one hand you want to be getting the most out of each stroke yet you don't want to be gliding to far with each one - essentially pausing between each stroke as you generate a micro stall. This means each subsequent stroke has to be stronger to pick up any lost momentum. Its a timing thing where you have to glide yet get the next stroke in just before you loose that momentum.

I notice a lot of my swim buddies cut their stroke short (i.e. don't push much past the hip) in pursuit of a faster stroke rate, I reckon they probably loose 10% of their overall stroke length.


The last push from the hips back is the fastest part of the stroke, it is also the most streamlined, skimp on this and you loose serious speed.
Gliding is good.
You are traveling at maximum speed with with excellent streamlining. This is a tri you are doing, not a 50m sprint.

I lap around 16 strokes for a 50m pool and can lap comfortably on 6 strokes in a 25m.

Distance swimming is all about floating and streamlining, not bashing the water into submission.

So much to disagree with here. First, the last part of the stroke may be the fastest your hand is moving, but it is far from the most important part of the stroke. In fact, many now think that the propulsion in that part of the stroke is not worth the time spent; rather, it is more valuable to get the recovery going more quickly so you get both a higher turnover and a return to the most propulsive parts of the stroke.

Gliding is good if you have a solid kick and/or a great streamlining position (which most other than lifetime swimmers don't).

Your SPL is an outlier, and not what the best distance swimmers do.

Bashing the water? The best distance swimmers typically take in the vicinity of 80 strokes per minute, with occasional forays above 100.

This was all discussed at great length here: http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...ge_Groupers_P4325544

Here's a comment in that thread from someone who recently achieved his goal of breaking :50 in a 100scy:

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That's exactly what I wanted to know actually. I'm a decent swimmer, but have stagnated with my times. Up to like a week ago, I was obsessed with keeping the same stroke count (13 strokes/25 scy), and it always yielded the same results and I wasn't getting faster, and when I'd get deep into the set and couldn't keep up my stroke count I figured I was tired (which I was) and called it a day. I did alot of research on slowtwitch and so I tried not counting, as well as increasing my stroke count and getting to my power part of my stroke earlier and eliminated some of the unnecessary body rolling and "thumb against thigh brush", and it really helped.

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Re: Swim DPS (dist per stroke) [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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Here is mainly underwater video of the current world record 1500m swim.
Watch and then tell me that glide is not important.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRs5ryGT82w
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Re: Swim DPS (dist per stroke) [lyrrad] [ In reply to ]
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haven't clicked on the video (probably seen it 20 times already...)

Sun Yang? He gets an EVF ridiculously early in the stroke. There might (and I stress might) be 2 guys on this board can do that, and I'm not one of them.

I've increased my stroke count this year, but it's too early to say whether it is making a difference since
a) I've been out of the water for 3 weeks
b) I'm 2 months into a 3 month course of antibiotics, which is sapping energy.
c) I'm trying to drop a bit of weight, also sapping energy.

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Re: Swim DPS (dist per stroke) [lyrrad] [ In reply to ]
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Not entirely replying to you, so bare with me.

From my experience; open water swimming is way different from pool swimming.
I was more of a 100/200 guy, but could swim a solid 500/1000/1650.
I had great walls (even before underwaters became a thing) and changed my stroke to focus on EVF.
Got down to holding 11-12 strokes per 25y at race pace doing that.
Didn't translate that well for me into open water swimming, at least not how I was expecting to.
Besides the obvious of wall, I think factors like currents, waves and wind favor swimmers with higher turn-over rates and less gliding.

A cool video to watch is this past World's mens 1500 final.
Paltrinieri's stroke rate vs Romanchuk's long DPS (almost catch-up like).

This is another cool video to get a sense of what some of the elite distance guys are doing training wise:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Zl5wOCWv54




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Re: Swim DPS (dist per stroke) [lyrrad] [ In reply to ]
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lyrrad wrote:
Here is mainly underwater video of the current world record 1500m swim.
Watch and then tell me that glide is not important to Sun Yang.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRs5ryGT82w

FIFY

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Re: Swim DPS (dist per stroke) [lyrrad] [ In reply to ]
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Gregorio Paltrinieri is the defending Olympic gold medalist and two-time defending world champ in the 1500 (and he doesn't have a drug ban on his record). He has the second-fastest 1500 of all time, and takes many more strokes per length than Sun.

I'm with those who advocate shorte strokes on longer efforts. We want to eliminate dead spots in the stroke. That can either be done by matching glide with the opposite arm (shortening the stroke) or kicking harder, which is completely impractical and energy-draining in a long race.

I like to use cycling analogies: like spinning in the small ring and keeping a higher cadence, you can avoid power depletion. In open water, where conditions change by the second (chop, current, wind, elbows, knees, waves, etc), it's better to have the strokes coming smaller and more rapidly to make the changes needed, stroke on stroke. If you're laid out on a long glide, any deviation to your stroke is going to throw you off balance.

I'm not advocating that anyone flog away at a very high intensity with a very short stroke, like a windup toy. That long reach stroke comes from years on years of intense training, 80,000m per week or more, with PLENTY of kick training. As a triathlete, you don't have that time.
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Re: Swim DPS (dist per stroke) [stoobie] [ In reply to ]
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stoobie wrote:
From my experience; open water swimming is way different from pool swimming.
I was more of a 100/200 guy, but could swim a solid 500/1000/1650.
I had great walls (even before underwaters became a thing) and changed my stroke to focus on EVF.
Got down to holding 11-12 strokes per 25y at race pace doing that.
Didn't translate that well for me into open water swimming, at least not how I was expecting to.
Besides the obvious of wall, I think factors like currents, waves and wind favor swimmers with higher turn-over rates and less gliding.
What is EVF?

What is the convention for counting strokes? Every arm-stroke is a stroke, or every right arm is a stroke?

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Re: Swim DPS (dist per stroke) [RangerGress] [ In reply to ]
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Early vertical forearm. Aka high elbows.

Most of us count strokes as each arm pull. Some wierdos (and garmin) count one arm only.

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Re: Swim DPS (dist per stroke) [RangerGress] [ In reply to ]
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RangerGress wrote:
stoobie wrote:

From my experience; open water swimming is way different from pool swimming.
I was more of a 100/200 guy, but could swim a solid 500/1000/1650.
I had great walls (even before underwaters became a thing) and changed my stroke to focus on EVF.
Got down to holding 11-12 strokes per 25y at race pace doing that.
Didn't translate that well for me into open water swimming, at least not how I was expecting to.
Besides the obvious of wall, I think factors like currents, waves and wind favor swimmers with higher turn-over rates and less gliding.

What is EVF?

What is the convention for counting strokes? Every arm-stroke is a stroke, or every right arm is a stroke?
Early vertical forearm. Basically having a high elbow during the pull.
When he says 11-12, that's every arm stroking. Mostly that's how people count.
However, if they say 10 cycles, that means 20 strokes.
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Re: Swim DPS (dist per stroke) [SharkFM] [ In reply to ]
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I used the following to improve my Ironman swim distance time from 60 minutes trying pretty hard to 56 minutes swimming a lot easier. I do this nearly every swim practice, for an hour straight, 3 times a week. Today's swim was 4500 yards nonstop easy freestyle at a 1:20 / 100 yds pace. Finding another 4 minutes when you're already at 60 minutes is pretty tough to do, so it's worth your time to check out.


Step 1. Get a cadence that is "decent" and not lazy feeling. Learn that cadence. And not super fast, either. Look for just right. Slightly quick, but not hurried.

Step 2. Swim lots of laps at that cadence/effort, counting your strokes to cross the pool. Make sure this is sustainable for long periods of time and feels natural.

Step 3. Keeping the same cadence/effort, try out different things that get you across the pool with fewer strokes. EVF, head more down, head more up, wider entry, legs closer together... the list of things to work on is long. Drag is what makes you slower in the pool. You're looking for what's causing drag, using your cadence/effort as a constant to contrast it against.

Step 4. If something gets you across the pool faster (fewer strokes) at the same effort (cadence) then keep it. If it's slower, lose it.

* People say swimming an hour nonstop is insane. Uh, you do it in the race and don't do it in practice? It's actually really easy, mostly because it's so simple.
** People say that's too hard of a workout. Like I said at the top, I'm swimming pretty easy. I'm almost falling asleep because it's so casual.
*** People say you need to do more drills and intervals. Based on these results, nope. Since drag is the number one enemy, this is one long drill to clean up your stroke to reduce that drag AND the volume you need to swim that hour in the race, both at the same time. As triathletes, this solution is killer for us that are time-crunched.

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Last edited by: ZenTriBrett: Sep 15, 17 11:45
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Re: Swim DPS (dist per stroke) [ZenTriBrett] [ In reply to ]
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Excellent advice- I am trying this next week.
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Re: Swim DPS (dist per stroke) [elf6c] [ In reply to ]
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elf6c wrote:
Excellent advice- I am trying this next week.

It is. And my coach would agree as well. She says us distance people (by the book) need to train @ distance, which is contrary to much of what is written on here at times suggesting no distance just short/hard stuff.

Further to that you can feel water flow as a measure of speed. Very hard to detect tho and be accurate, hence the need for the clock. There are many red herrings in swimming. Like the effort you put into your pull will make you faster. Often that goes the other way for novices.

Was in a lane today with a master's group, continuing on their 5am-7am. They were training 50 fast, 50 back. 25 sprint, 25 back. etc. Benefits of a 50M pool you can do this, stretch it out.

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Re: Swim DPS (dist per stroke) [Stevie_A] [ In reply to ]
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There isn't a one size fits all to DPS or tempo, especially in a distance event. Contrary to the swim smooth blog post there weren't any serious swimmers or coaches in the "late 20th century" that thought about swimming fast as they are describing.

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Re: Swim DPS (dist per stroke) [ZenTriBrett] [ In reply to ]
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Ok this thread has gone to just about every corner of the pool it can go, let me see if I can sum it up;

You should do long swims in the pool to train for long race swims
You should do short intense intervals to train for any race in swimming

(guess what, you can do both of these, not like you only do one swim workout a month. Mix it up and even throw in OW wetsuit straight swims with the intervals and long pool swims)

You should get to good EVF and lengthen out your stroke, and make it more powerful.
You should take more strokes per lap to get to the power phase

(once again both are right. Since most triathletes do their races in a wetsuit which puts them in a very high floating position, and has some constriction on the shoulders, then a longer, slower, more powerful pull will be best. On the other hand if you are not in a wetsuit, then virtually 100% of successful OW racers would tell us that more strokes per minute are better up to a point. Of course you don't slip you hand to achieve that, but you also are not going for that 90 degree bend in the elbow in the middle of the pull either)

To summarize just about everyone is right here, but in the specific context of what someone is trying to achieve. The ultimate is to know how to do both things (high turnover, great EVF) and be able to adjust them depending on your race. Also keep in mind that most of those triathlon wetsuit swims also are draft legal. I would think that I spent 95% of my triathlon career race swimming in a wetsuit on someones feet. SO would make sense for me to train for that type of environment.

But since I also like to swim masters pool nationals in every stroke, I have to do stuff that keeps that sharp as well. Figure out what you are going to do and then pick a plan that best suits it..
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Re: Swim DPS (dist per stroke) [stoobie] [ In reply to ]
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stoobie wrote:
Not entirely replying to you, so bare with me.

From my experience; open water swimming is way different from pool swimming.
I was more of a 100/200 guy, but could swim a solid 500/1000/1650.
I had great walls (even before underwaters became a thing) and changed my stroke to focus on EVF.
Got down to holding 11-12 strokes per 25y at race pace doing that.
Didn't translate that well for me into open water swimming, at least not how I was expecting to.
Besides the obvious of wall, I think factors like currents, waves and wind favor swimmers with higher turn-over rates and less gliding.

A cool video to watch is this past World's mens 1500 final.
Paltrinieri's stroke rate vs Romanchuk's long DPS (almost catch-up like).

This is another cool video to get a sense of what some of the elite distance guys are doing training wise:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Zl5wOCWv54




Yep, I got smashed first ocean swim.
In the ocean and especially if in a wetsuit I swim much flatter, have my head higher and turn over quicker as acceleration is absolutely required to go with the ocean waves.
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Re: Swim DPS (dist per stroke) [ZenTriBrett] [ In reply to ]
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Great advice from Shark FM. Drag reduction search for swimming has great potential to reduce effort and fatigue for the same time, let alone drop your time. As an old swimmer, I worked with my coach and dropped to 1:05:xx at IM Frankfurt while exiting not tired. It seems also that as you swim long and identify the various elements of technique that cause drag or reduce it, you more easily commit the new, beneficial techniques to muscle memory beginning with that first session within which you identified them.

For the biker analogy - In the same season I worked on my bike fit and technique and saw my effort level drop significantly for the same effort, leading to an improved run.
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