Swim: Kick &Pull wars - Adult vs Triple AAA kid

Jun 12, 17 18:00

Post #1 of 27 (3069 views)

My son is a regional championship swimmer, coming off 5 medals. He's currently 5:15 range for 400M free. 12 years old

He can kickboard 2x faster than me easy. But I wanted to separate propulsion vs the body we're moving in the water.
I figure the best way to do this is set up a "war", so we did a quick test.

Coach figured he'd out-kick me because he can absolutely slaughter me on the kickboard. I didn't think so.

OK so we both grabbed our 6x6 floating dock, which has a vertical rope dead center. Count to 3 and GO!! Flat out kick.

Result - let me first say the kid has a super strong kick. Surprising to feel that push coming off a 12 yo kid.
The verdict over 2 full output tests was a dead stalemate. The floaty dock did not budge an inch either way.

Conclusion: To match kick speed of a young swimmer, the hydrodynamics of my body/size require that I would either a) need a substantially more propulsion from my kick and/or b) I need to improve hydrodynamics of my body position on a kickboard - however that is done (eg use a larger board scaled to my size??).

Pull wars are next. I figure I can outdo the kid in this department. Coach says no.

PS Sorry about the pix rotation, twitter decided to do this....

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Re: Swim: Kick &Pull wars - Adult vs Triple AAA kid [SharkFM] [ In reply to ]

Jun 12, 17 18:28

Post #2 of 27 (3044 views)

With a board, unless you are angling it or bending your elbows, your streamline is as good as it's gonna get. He outkicks you because he's producing the same net power, but he's lighter.

You need to produce more net power and or lose weight to keep up.

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Re: Swim: Kick &Pull wars - Adult vs Triple AAA kid [SharkFM] [ In reply to ]

Jun 12, 17 18:30

Post #3 of 27 (3040 views)

How much does he weigh, and height.

How much do you weigh and height

What are your respective times for a hard 100 pull?

Tell me those, and I'll guess who wins the tug o war

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Re: Swim: Kick &Pull wars - Adult vs Triple AAA kid [SharkFM] [ In reply to ]

Jun 12, 17 19:11

Post #4 of 27 (2996 views)

Taking this in another direction at a lot of masters clubs I see that the women seem to relatively outkick their male lane mates on kick sets, but the guys out pull the women on pull sets. So I have been wondering if the women have better overall hydrodynamics relative to the men, or stronger kicks. I am certain that the guys have physically stronger legs just like they generally have physically stronger upper bodies. I don't THINK the women are generating more propulsion from their legs (a lot of guys use the excuse that the women have more flexible ankles which I think is BS). I think the women generally have better hydrodynamics when extended on a kick board. But I might be wrong.....maybe some of these kick war sessions to resolve who has the propulsion force advantage.

Re: Swim: Kick &Pull wars - Adult vs Triple AAA kid [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]

Jun 12, 17 19:14

Post #5 of 27 (2990 views)

It's in the ankles.

Stick a pair of fins on the guys and they'll outkick the girls

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Last edited by: JasoninHalifax: Jun 12, 17 19:15

Re: Swim: Kick &Pull wars - Adult vs Triple AAA kid [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]

Jun 12, 17 19:43

Post #6 of 27 (2960 views)

Quote:

It's in the ankles.

Stick a pair of fins on the guys and they'll outkick the girls

Truth

Two years ago when I went to a swim camp at The Race Club we had a "race" where we kicked an all-out 50 first without fins and then with. Without fins I think I kicked that 50 in 1:00 and I was the fastest triathlete (there were four or five of us) by about eight or nine seconds. One of the triathletes gave up about halfway across (he was in decent shape too). The fastest kicker in that race was a female high-school senior and I think she kicked the 50 in about :45. When we put fins on I managed to tie said high school senior kicking said 50 in about :37. The other triathletes improved by even larger margins.

Re: Swim: Kick &Pull wars - Adult vs Triple AAA kid [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]

Jun 12, 17 20:04

Post #7 of 27 (2936 views)

GreenPlease wrote:

Quote:

It's in the ankles.

Stick a pair of fins on the guys and they'll outkick the girls

Truth

Two years ago when I went to a swim camp at The Race Club we had a "race" where we kicked an all-out 50 first without fins and then with. Without fins I think I kicked that 50 in 1:00 and I was the fastest triathlete (there were four or five of us) by about eight or nine seconds. One of the triathletes gave up about halfway across (he was in decent shape too). The fastest kicker in that race was a female high-school senior and I think she kicked the 50 in about :45. When we put fins on I managed to tie said high school senior kicking said 50 in about :37. The other triathletes improved by even larger margins.

JOOC, were these 50s LCM, SCM, OR SCY??? In any case, I've had same experience, albeit just at my local pool, not with the Halls. :)

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Re: Swim: Kick &Pull wars - Adult vs Triple AAA kid [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]

Jun 12, 17 20:27

Post #8 of 27 (2919 views)

50 LCM :)

Re: Swim: Kick &Pull wars - Adult vs Triple AAA kid [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]

Jun 12, 17 20:44

Post #9 of 27 (2906 views)

GreenPlease wrote:

50 LCM :)

I thought it might be LCM; you're kicking pretty fast as an AOS but, as Amy Hall said right here on ST, "you have so much talent". I used to know a guy who started swimming at 23 (and had never swum at all pre-23) and got down to kicking a 34 for 50 scy, but he was a real rarity. Fortunately, I could out-pull him so we swam 200s about even, but he was always faster in an all-out 50 or 100 free.

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Re: Swim: Kick &Pull wars - Adult vs Triple AAA kid [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]

Jun 12, 17 22:45

Post #10 of 27 (2874 views)

I could kick sub 40 for 50m at 12 or 13...

___________________________________________
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2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)

Re: Swim: Kick &Pull wars - Adult vs Triple AAA kid [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]

Jun 12, 17 22:48

Post #11 of 27 (2872 views)

Gonna be a while before mine can beat me... he's 67 lbs soaking wet. Best guess is he's going to shave another 60 or so off his 400 next season. 6:33 was decent for a 10 year kid just out of summer league swimming and he's probably moving up squads as well.

___________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)

Re: Swim: Kick &Pull wars - Adult vs Triple AAA kid [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]

Jun 12, 17 22:58

Post #12 of 27 (2866 views)

devashish_paul wrote:

Taking this in another direction at a lot of masters clubs I see that the women seem to relatively outkick their male lane mates on kick sets, but the guys out pull the women on pull sets. So I have been wondering if the women have better overall hydrodynamics relative to the men, or stronger kicks. I am certain that the guys have physically stronger legs just like they generally have physically stronger upper bodies. I don't THINK the women are generating more propulsion from their legs (a lot of guys use the excuse that the women have more flexible ankles which I think is BS). I think the women generally have better hydrodynamics when extended on a kick board. But I might be wrong.....maybe some of these kick war sessions to resolve who has the propulsion force advantage.

I think you are right in your assessment above and a kick war would be an interesting test to prove that theory.

Referring to Jason's reply, in the war setup - it doesn't matter whether it's ankles, toes, quads or whatever - it's simply propulsion vs propulsion no matter how you get it done ( & the body hydrodynamics are removed from the equation). If you add fins that simply increases the opportunity for propulsion @ low cadence. Kicking with feet alone requires very high cadence or "rpm", something adults will have difficulty with achieving.

My son is growing & just starting to show some strength. He's 5'5" or so and 120 lbs, size 9 US feet.

I am going to the hardware store to get the biggest damn flutter board I can find for next Sunday's practice. Should be good for a laugh. Why aren't pull buoys scaled-up as well?

@Commonwealth pool - the kid w/a big kick...

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Re: Swim: Kick &Pull wars - Adult vs Triple AAA kid [SharkFM] [ In reply to ]

Jun 13, 17 4:39

Post #13 of 27 (2780 views)

Kicking with fins also removes the requirement for ankle flexibility. That's what I was getting at with my reply to Dev.

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Re: Swim: Kick &Pull wars - Adult vs Triple AAA kid [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]

Jun 13, 17 5:02

Post #14 of 27 (2764 views)

Women generally sit higher in water too.

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Re: Swim: Kick &Pull wars - Adult vs Triple AAA kid [len] [ In reply to ]

Jun 13, 17 5:37

Post #15 of 27 (2737 views)

A bit, but women are also usually lighter and therefore get more float out of a standard kickboard.

When I kick with a board it is usually completely submerged.

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Re: Swim: Kick &Pull wars - Adult vs Triple AAA kid [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]

Jun 13, 17 16:20

Post #16 of 27 (2642 views)

JasoninHalifax wrote:

A bit, but women are also usually lighter and therefore get more float out of a standard kickboard.

When I kick with a board it is usually completely submerged.

Women would float higher and maybe more hydrodynamic due to relatively larger kick board to body size ratio. Ankle flex on top of that allows for flicking the water better as if wearing fins vs stiff ankle thrashing the water, but not sure in a kick war if a strong woman kicker out propels a moderately strong guy kicker. That guy might be getting less relative propulsion out of his ankles than the flexy ankle woman and gets it all back with fins, but in a straight out propulsion war bare foot no fins it may surprisingly be a wash when we take out buoyancy, streamline and flotation from kick board out?

Re: Swim: Kick &Pull wars - Adult vs Triple AAA kid [SharkFM] [ In reply to ]

Jun 13, 17 19:28

Post #17 of 27 (2580 views)

I've been thinking about your floating dock, I think it could have a significant amount of inertia, fouling a short test. What about both of you holding a single pull bouy?
Also, there is a "grudge match" stretch cord set where a single piece of tubing is attached to two belts. Good times. I think you could replicate this with bike inner tubes.

Re: Swim: Kick &Pull wars - Adult vs Triple AAA kid [Trexlera] [ In reply to ]

Jun 13, 17 19:37

Post #18 of 27 (2573 views)

There's also the old standby. Tie a stretch cord to the blocks and see how far down the pool you can get.

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Re: Swim: Kick &Pull wars - Adult vs Triple AAA kid [Trexlera] [ In reply to ]

Jun 13, 17 20:07

Post #19 of 27 (2562 views)

There is some inertia - but being cedar and foam - think of a wide surfboard. To test that we did one person kick only and it was easy to move.

The next test I want to float line between some ankle tethering. So a foam band around the ankles, with a stretch cord, setup on the dock, then jump-in. Have pull buoy as an indicator to see who's making headway.

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Re: Swim: Kick &Pull wars - Adult vs Triple AAA kid [Trexlera] [ In reply to ]

Jun 13, 17 20:07

Post #20 of 27 (2560 views)

Trexlera wrote:

I've been thinking about your floating dock, I think it could have a significant amount of inertia, fouling a short test. What about both of you holding a single pull bouy?
Also, there is a "grudge match" stretch cord set where a single piece of tubing is attached to two belts. Good times. I think you could replicate this with bike inner tubes.

What about both athletes just pushing either side of a flutter board while kicking?

Re: Swim: Kick &Pull wars - Adult vs Triple AAA kid [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]

Jun 13, 17 20:08

Post #21 of 27 (2560 views)

JasoninHalifax wrote:

There's also the old standby. Tie a stretch cord to the blocks and see how far down the pool you can get.

We have the stretch rig at the lake, but not the pool. I should bring it there and see if there are any takers on the challenge

Training Tweets: https://twitter.com/Jagersport_com
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Re: Swim: Kick &Pull wars - Adult vs Triple AAA kid [SharkFM] [ In reply to ]

Jun 13, 17 20:20

Post #22 of 27 (2555 views)

Been a while since I raced there :)

___________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)

Re: Swim: Kick &Pull wars - Adult vs Triple AAA kid [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]

Jun 13, 17 20:46

Post #23 of 27 (2545 views)

devashish_paul wrote:

Trexlera wrote:

I've been thinking about your floating dock, I think it could have a significant amount of inertia, fouling a short test. What about both of you holding a single pull bouy?
Also, there is a "grudge match" stretch cord set where a single piece of tubing is attached to two belts. Good times. I think you could replicate this with bike inner tubes.

What about both athletes just pushing either side of a flutter board while kicking?

I thought of that, but the position of the board would alter how easy it was to kick on either side.

Re: Swim: Kick &Pull wars - Adult vs Triple AAA kid [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]

Jun 13, 17 22:22

Post #24 of 27 (2516 views)

ericmulk wrote:

GreenPlease wrote:

50 LCM :)

I thought it might be LCM; you're kicking pretty fast as an AOS but, as Amy Hall said right here on ST, "you have so much talent". I used to know a guy who started swimming at 23 (and had never swum at all pre-23) and got down to kicking a 34 for 50 scy, but he was a real rarity. Fortunately, I could out-pull him so we swam 200s about even, but he was always faster in an all-out 50 or 100 free.

Wow. That's about as fast as I can currently swim 50 SCY (best was 30 flat in HS), and I'm a 'pretty good' swimmer (I just can't sprint worth a damn). I'm so far ahead of my other HS times now (even after my recent five year break from swimming) it's almost sad.

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Last edited by: CCF: Jun 13, 17 22:29

Re: Swim: Kick &Pull wars - Adult vs Triple AAA kid [CCF] [ In reply to ]

Jun 14, 17 9:11

Post #25 of 27 (2442 views)

CCF wrote:

ericmulk wrote:

GreenPlease wrote:

50 LCM :)

I thought it might be LCM; you're kicking pretty fast as an AOS but, as Amy Hall said right here on ST, "you have so much talent". I used to know a guy who started swimming at 23 (and had never swum at all pre-23) and got down to kicking a 34 for 50 scy, but he was a real rarity. Fortunately, I could out-pull him so we swam 200s about even, but he was always faster in an all-out 50 or 100 free.

Wow. That's about as fast as I can currently swim 50 SCY (best was 30 flat in HS), and I'm a 'pretty good' swimmer (I just can't sprint worth a damn). I'm so far ahead of my other HS times now (even after my recent five year break from swimming) it's almost sad.

Ya, kicking 34 for 50 yd is very fast to me but you know many of the top swimmers can kick 10 x 100 on the 1:20 coming in at 1:05-:06, and hit the last 100 well under 1:00. There's a youtube video showing Ricky Berens and Matt Grevers doing this set, with Berens going 56 and Grevers 54 for last 100 yd. Further, there's a youtube showing Charlie Houchin kicking 400 LONG course meters in 4:55, which is even more unbelievable, at least to me. And Berens and Houchin aren't even household names either; Berens swam on the 4 x 2 relay in '08 and Houchin on the 4 x 2 in '12, so they both helped MP to become a household name. The top swimmers are unbelievable, but then so are the top runners, cyclists, XC skiers, etc. :)

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

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