I do agree the fish swim hard, but as I mentioned before, I think the folks who swam from youth underestimate the amount of self-selection that went into it. By default, almost anyone who kept swimming from their childhood years competitively was a very talented swimmer compared to the averaged triathlete.

I actually think all that hard work made an already strong swimmer significantly stronger, but I don't think all that training is the main factor separating them from the rest of the MOP triathlon folks. Even if you fishies who swam a ton through childhood started as adult-onset swimmers and trained as much as , say me, you'd absolutely blow me away in the water despite identical training.

There is a lot of truth to that.

Here's my story. I started swimming competitively in the club system when I was 14. My first ever meet, I swam the 100m free in a 1:11.7 scm. That's one of those times that I will always remember. That was at 14, pretty good compared to an adult onset swimmer, but lots of 14 year olds faster than that.

My next meet, I swam a 1:07, and broke a minute at the end of the following year.

The other part of that I'd that I had already spent several years in a different club, where there wasn't much emphasis on times, but they taught us how to swim the strokes, we played a lot of sharks and minnows, and water polo. I would guess that I had probably put in at least 1,000,000 m before I ever started swimming in the competitive club at 14.

Now, I wasn't especially talented. Where I grew up, the school I went to had a rule that every student was required to participate in 2 extra curricular activities per term. One of them had to be a sport. Swimming was just the sport that I was "least bad" at. I really didn't get to be all that good at it, relative to other swimmers, until I got to university. When I got there, I realized that my main "talent", if you will, was a capacity for hard work and ability to ignore pain. But I wasn't any kind of a standout before then, I mainly swam because my parents expected me to participate in a sport, and I couldn't catch or throw a ball.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

At the Y this morning, I put in my 1500 meters to kick off what will hopefully be another 10k week. Watch says I spent 40 minutes in the pool (including lots o'rest...). There was a guy there when I started, doing IM intervals. He was still there when I left. A couple of weeks ago this guy was pointed out to me as the current or past provincial Master's champion on several distances and disciplines. The thing is, he is putting in the time, while many of us are not, and that is the difference. I'm pretty sure that Sunday isn't the only day where he spends several hours in the pool.

There was a post here not too long ago that invoked the rule where it takes 10,000 hours to become expert at something (doesn't much matter if that's a manual/physical skill or a knowledge based skill). For me, if I were to manage to swim an hour a day, six days a week, then I'd accumulate about 300 hours per year from here forward - that would put me in the 'expert' category in about 20 years (giving some small credit for the past 35 years' worth of effort since I swam on a school team). But I'm sure I'd improve plenty along the way.

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Less is more.

Well, you have a point as it relates to the really fast fish tri-guys, who say go under 19:00 for 1650scy/1500scm as adults on limited training (i.e., they might've gone 16:00 or under back in college) but I think the same can be said of runners. The really talented runner will go 18-low for 5K just off the couch, as you have said several times, and be sub-16 on 30 mpw. For the "average guy", just running 19:59 for 5K will be a big accomplishment, as would swimming say 21:59 for 1650scy/1500scm. We can debate exactly what times in the 5K and 1500m are comparable but you get my drift, I hope:)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Big E - You're getting it, good job:)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

I kept swimming even after going to a high school with no swim team and dropping competition, only because I liked to swim..
similarly after starting running, kept on running although I had no talent for it beyond a talent for training, and liked to run.. it's not all about succeeding at competition.
as Jason says, started all this mostly because I couldn't catch or throw or kick a ball or hit it with a stick, which is pretty much the definition of an endurance athlete.. no ball skills.. ha.

Yes, that's exactly what I'm getting at.

And to use your analogy, I'm saying that if you were a 'joe-average' swimmer guy, you would never have voluntarily asked to spend huge chunks of your life, year after year, in swimming, as you'd be getting toasted day in day out by people you clearly would have no chance ever of catching. Almost all the kids who stick with swimming for years, enjoyed it, and a large part of that is because they were pretty good at it. I'm not saying they were amazing right out of the get-go, but they were good enough that compared to a nonserious swimmer, they were pretty darn good.

There aren't any youth running programs as serious as swimming, but it wouldn't be much different than self-selecting all the guys who have the physical ability to run low 17:xx 5ks on <25mpw per week of training as a high school kid, just earlier. Some of those kids will go on to run 100+mpw as highly competitive runners, but those 100mpw just make them faster relative to the fast guys. They didn't need 100mpw to blow away the average-ability guy who is likely your typical AG triathlete. Similarly, strong collegiate swimmers are hella fast, but they'd still crush triathletes even WITHOUT their extensive swim background, and just with a mediocre amount of training as an adult-onset swimmer. There are quite a few adult-onset swimmers on these very forums who likely are late bloomers from swimming, but are good examples of how you do NOT need that crazy volume swim background, provided you have luck and talent on your side.

I have a friend triathlete who was not a competitive swimmer, but just did 2 years of 'swim club' with the local YMCA - back when he was 10. Didn't swim a stroke since, and never had serious swim techique training. I actually think his technique is awful - lots of bobbing, weird pull, etc. But he completely crushes me in the pool and in OWS, every time, without even trying that hard, and swimming <5k/wk (8k is a BIG week for him.) Fortunately for me, he seems a lot less talented on the bike/run, which he spends equal time to me, but remains firmly BOMOP, despite 4 years of such effort. It's very clear when you look at our results, that talent is a big difference in how our SBRs are playing out.

I started a tad younger (8) in a summer program in a tiny outdoor pool North of 55. We swam 5 days a week from May 1 to August 15th or so with meets every other Saturday. I did my first day camps at 9 for a week and did 3 weeks at 10 and 11... after 4 years and a move south to Calgary I switched to year round swimming. I also discovered I was pretty good at longer events like 200 Fly, 400 Free and such. Before I had only swam up to 100 free and 50 Fly was my best event my last year in summer club. In 88 I was 8th in Summer Club 50 Fly, 11 months later I was first at year round provincials in 100/200 Fly and top 10 in Canada. I worked extremely hard that first winter including sets like 8x200 Fly, 100x100 etc. I improved my 200 Fly PR SCM from 3.06 to 2.01 in 12 years more than half was that first year.

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___________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)

I was a decent skater with hands of stone hence why swimming and running were my thing at a young age with the focus heavy on swimming.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)

That is a great rule that all schools should have, from grade school through college. Otherwise, you might not even be on ST and you might weigh 300 lbs:)

I started swimming on a YMCA team when I was 13 but did not really get into it until age14/15, when I dropped from a 1:35 down to a 1:12 for 100scy in one winter season. However, after that it took a lot longer to get faster and I have never gone 59.9 for 100 scm. OTOH, I did come to really love the feel of the water and have never stayed away from the pool for very long, except when forced to by military deployments to AFG/IRQ. And even then, I was back in the water the first day back in the States. I remember back in April 2007 going 6000 scm in my first swim workout after 1 full yr of no swimming: I could just barely stand up in the shower afterwards cause I was so tired, despite 15 hrs/wk of running, indoor biking, stretch cords, weights, etc, during the year out of the water. There's really just no substitute for real swimming:)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Bo - Can you explain this further for those of us from southern climates??? Speed skating or XC skiing with the "skating" technique??? Also, what is the significance of "hands of stone"???

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

If that was Crowfoot YMCA in Calgary that was me. I was doing a bunch of IM work and some free and fly sprints today. Last Sunday was 30x100 main set.

8x50 Off Order IM @ 60
6x75 3 IM order 50/25 pattern, 3 - 1 each stroke non free @1.30

Short swim in terms of volume but lots of faster non free intervals. I will probably have 2 higher volume swims next week.


As for Masters at worlds I was 3rd in 400 Fr and 400 IM, 4 th in 3kOW (lost 2nd in pack sprint), 5th 200 Fly / 800 Free and was 8th in 100 Fly. Provincials and Nationals I have always won my AG and usually close to overall win.

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___________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)

He's talking about hockey. In Canada, every male kid is judged by his ability to play hockey.

I can't even skate....

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

I am talking about my one and only hockey season. Hands of Stone refers to my less than excellent puck handling and shooting skills.

I did race xc skiing for a couple of winters at a local level. I beat some much older kids too. Our races did not specify classic or skate. Most kids only did classic, I did both and if the course was skateable they got their ass handed to them.

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___________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)

Comparing apples to oranges. Yes, we know that hard work is a recipe for success, really in anything,

The thing is, that many swim coaches try this method with late onset swimmers, who just don't have the time, flexibility to put in those hours. Many of us also have to unlearn bad habits.

I take myself as an example. I failed a beginners swim test at age 12, had never swum before, and the next year I went to the pool as often as possible, on my own (had no clue swim teams or coaches existed) and the next summer camp I passed the top Swimmer designation and the year after my Red Cross Lifesaver course. (It was a bit of a joke, because our instructor was American, and when we got tested at a Canadian Military Base a short while later, ALL of us failed within a few seconds.) Our swimming was focused on strength and not on style. We used to swim across the lake, but I did breast stroke.

After the age of 14, no swimming till partway through the military where I spent some time in the frogman unit, where little of what we did was actually "swimming" More long swims with fins while lying on your back in formation, or dives.

No swimming then till age 54 when I took up triathlon. I could barely swim 25 meters by then. Eventually, was able to get up to swimming several K, though of course, wetsuit swims worked best for me.

Every single coach I talked to offered different advice, I changed my stroke so often I no longer knew what I was doing. One Coach in a Masters program said to me "Oh, 55, that's kind of late to learn how to swim" "Your head is coming up out of the water" "Oh, yes, I know, what do I do to rectify that"

I see a lack of Coaches that know how to coach ADULTS who have little or no experience swimming.

From my personal experience, I think the biggest issues I faced was body positioning, my first coach said I swim uphill. yet, I had very few coaches actually really work with me on that.

Funny story, I attended one 3-day swim clinic, they had all kinds of IM drills. Sure, i can barely swim freestyle, why not try fly or backstroke?

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Cervelo R3 and Cannondale Synapse, Argon18 Electron Track Bike

Sure, i can think of several similar swimmers and, actually, that was one reason i got into tri in the beginning, cause i could beat some guys who had totally crushed me in the pool for years. Of course, those guys only ever let me beat them that first tri, and then they usually just quit and went back to swimming only:)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

True - those who learned early usually did a whole lot more (volume and technique) than those who learned late as part of an overall training package for triathlon. But what we hate is that this embedded knowledge and skill can sit dormant for years and years and get resurrected with very little 'fresh' work compared to the poor adult starter who not only (usually) has to train for the other two disciplines but also has to work (longer hours than school), interact with the wife/husband/kids and do a myriad of other bits and pieces. Even doing a whole lot of late in life volume can never really replace that early learning. I think I mentioned on a previous thread that our club coach (Olympic silver medalist coach) said to me that if you miss the bus, then the bus has gone and you can chase it all you want but you'll never catch it. His analogy was that if you don't do the work early in life - and he even stated years for boys and girls - then it's too late to ever really nail you potential. You can be ok, good even, but never the best you could be had you put in the time when young. I really don't know why this seems to be true but when one looks at national and international level, almost every swimmer has a lengthy background at a young age. Many child superstars don't turn into senior superstars, but not many non childhood swimmers make that grade either. Can anyone think of a swimmer who started swimming post 20's - still pretty young - who went on to Wold's or Olympics for a major nation (not counting Tonga etc)?

On top of that, you have to agree that young fishes have it much better than us "learning when older" group. I mean - what a life!. The early fishes got dropped off to pm swim squad, picked up, fed dinner, tucked in at night and read a story, woken up early by mum/dad, fed some vegimite toast, dropped off again to am swimming training, picked up, fed breakfast, dropped to school,.... you get my drift. If you enjoy swimming, this is a pretty good life and pretty easy to take. As an adult learner, we have to manage all the other "stuff" (maybe including doing the above for swimmer kid) as well. So us poor old people who didn't learn this strange skill when young and free now have to cope with all the adult pressures and time constraints, PLUS train for the two other bits of the Tri, PLUS take little Johny or Jenny to squad, PLUS contend with little Johny or Jenny being X much faster and reminding us over and over, PLUS we missed the bloody bus!

I actually think they do have it easier :)

fed some vegimite toast,

Ah, that's the secret of Aussie Swimming supremacy, that'a harder sell for us North American adults than swimming !!!!

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Cervelo R3 and Cannondale Synapse, Argon18 Electron Track Bike

Did you miss the part about guys spending 80 hrs/wk on academics, e.g., classes, labs, and studying??? And then also managing to swim 20 hr/wk??? I'm talking about going to a very competitive university (Johns Hopkins) where everyone spends lots of time on their studies. Very, very few adults work 80 hr/wk, but if you include the whole parenting business along with a 40-50 hr/wk job, then ya, 80 hrs/wk may well be routine. BUT, that just puts you EQUAL to these college swimmers, i.e. in theory an adult should be able to carve out 20 hr/wk to swim, bike, and/or run, if SBR is their highest priority after their 80 hrs spent on work and family, i.e. no TV, no entertainment, etc, unless you're riding the trainer or running on the dread-mill:)

TBH, nothing in my life has been as challenging as the 4 yrs I spent at Hopkins:)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

As that joe-average swimmer, I am glad I never had the mindset of the above bold print.

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Formerly TriBrad02

Swimming is the least understood (by triathletes) of the three sports, IMO. Not only the 'how', in terms of technique, but also the volume required to become a decent triathlon swimmer, which is not as much as most people think. It's not surprising, because while it remains roughly 8-10% of the race, it will be treated by many as the unfortunate necessity that gets you onto the bike.

I am not sure what defines a 'fish'. I didn't do any squad training as a kid, but represented my school every year in high school (13-17). This was done on 1 swimming lesson per week throughout junior school (aged 5-12). Like plenty of other kids , we had a 10 yards pool at home - not a lot of training done in there..!

I didn't do my first 'proper' squad session until I was about 28, but it was with a coach who produced an Olympic swimmer, and the squad contained a couple of world champion triathletes. No choice but to train hard there..
If i ever did more than 20k in a week, it was maybe once or twice. My first test was 9x200@3.15 as 3x(swim/pull/paddle pull), which I barely made. Within a year my best times (from 50-400 scm) were 27.8, 1.02, 2.17, 4.54, which was more than adequate for triathlon.

I think many people underestimate the value of training properly in the pool. I had a great coach, did some tough sets, and generally swam hard, but not the crazy volume that many think is necessary for triathlon.

There is no reason why the majority of triathletes can't become decent triathlon swimmers.

I'm an adult onset swimmer. I have been in the pool 3-7 times a week last 3-4 years and while it has helped, I have given up on becoming front of pack swimmer as most of the ppl first out of the water is likely ex high school and college swimmers. I know I can get there if I swim 15-25 km per week next several years but to me it's not worth the trade off between run and bike training, work, friends etc

Seems like fishes who started swimming as kids have a hard time relating to that? I know you put in huge hours in your youth but things are different when you are a kid

I am now finishing in top 20-30 pct in ironman swims and feel fresh when I start the bike. That has been enough to KQ

I would love to break one hour and will continue to swim 10-14 km per week with assistance of a great coach with main objective of getting close to 1h and most importantly coming out of the water fresh

In summary:
- I think becoming fop swim requires massive volume if you are adult onset swimmer and for me it's not worth it
- 10-14 km is enough to become a comfortable front of mop swimmer
- I think many childhood onset swimmers don't realize how it feels to be adult onset swimmer and goes on and on about that most triathletes don't know what swim training means and takes

A

I've been following all of these recent fishy threads with great interest, good stuff. In particular these ideas around youth swimmer vs adult onset, the advantages and so forth.

Is there something to be said for taking part in an activity during your growth years?As your muscles grow and your body develops, is it possible that your growth optimises for the activites you take part in and the work you do during that phase? I have in mind this grainy video footage I've seen of a young Bradley Wiggins riding his bike competitively as a kid, and Victoria Pendleton doing cyclocross as a young girl. Tiger driving off the tee aged 6. You often see this kind of thing with the best guys in the world, footage of them doing it as a nipper.There are always these talented folks who just pick something up at a later age, but when it is a very specific set of movements that you don't repeat in everyday life (ie freestyle), is there something to be said for getting those motions ingrained during your formative years?

Not to detract from the hard work you fishies have done, clearly an enormous amount of effort has to be put in. I just wonder if there is an optimum time in your life to do that work.

Just an idea, interested to know what you guys think. And basically I want a good excuse for being such a crap swimmer, because nobody bothered to teach me freestyle when I was a kid :-(

Rich.

There def is something to be said about ingraining technique during growth years. And yes, I def believe that to be a world-class swimmer, you absolutely have to have started super early to get that developmental advantage - it's the same with any skill base sport or activity.

However, in endurance sports, and especially triathlon swimming, the talent/fitness component is ALWAYS overlooked by the fishies who were self-selected because they were successful enough at it in youth that they found it fun and stuck with it for a long time.Just because Tiger drove off the tee at 6 does NOT mean that if you took every kid and did the same, that they'd also become Tiger, or even a pro-level golfer. In fact, odds are that the vast, vast majority will not. No different in swimming. But if you ask those who have come through those youth programs, they're very quick to ascribe it all to their years of hard work and coaching, when that's actually only part, and possibly even, a small part of the story of their success. Without the talent base, NO amount of work/training will even let them be anywhere near as good. Most of these natural fish who worked their tails off, still would be stomping all over AG triathlon swimmers if they were adult onset, late to the sport swimmers, and there are definitely adult-onset swimmers who find their talent and can swim at the front in triathlons with very little comparative hard work. (I think of all the adult-onset swimmers on this very forum who find a 1 hr IM swim not hard at all while never having logged over 15k/wk, and often swimming <10k/wk during IM race training, and all of those yards not particularly structured or with any sort of coaching.)

Now as we all know, the level of excellence in swimming required to be a FFOP swimmer isn't particularly high by competitive swimmer standards, and to those even with non-world class talent, seems downright easy. But when you add biking/running as a priority to the mix, all of a sudden you're dealing with adult-onset swimmers who need to be talented enough to get good fast on pretty low volume training unless they're lucky enough to have a very accommodating schedule. That's why the talent issue is still a real big deal in triathlon swimming despite the seemingly soft standards.