Nope..the OP wrote:

"For example, I consider physio (strengthens inured joint structure), big gear on the bike (could help with power on the flats) and hilly trail runs (helps with stabilizers, and running strength) to be a form of "strength" training.
Thoughts?
Maurice "

Anyway I'l play..

So about your crap dinner. At what point does strength training become useless to you? You accept big gear work is strength training and useful? What about 15 minutes of lunges in the garage with a barbell slung over the shoulder - springing back on your toes? Still strength work? Still useful?

Or does the fact you're not actually doing the run or bike mean by definition this training is useless?

What about 15 minutes of stride outs while the potato is baking....

Thanks, a few more questions if you don't mind.


What equipment and protocol did you use to test this?


So in addition to the weights, you were doing 2-3 hours of IM effort riding? What effort were you doing on the skate skis?


So 180 on the leg press was a max effort at the beginning?

Shane

What about them? Are you suggesting they help performance?

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You know I am.

I'm asking your opinion.

I don't think it's useful.

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Performance wise I don't think there is much, if any, evidence that it helps.

But I'm 45 and not built for endurance sports so I am not ever going to make money at this. While tri is the only sport I compete at I enjoy lifting and like being able to pick up pretty much anything. So I'll take the performance hit to look good on the beach.

The biggest pro is that your wife is watching me as I finish 5 minutes behind you while your scrawny butt is off getting a drink.

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I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.

 
Shame on you.

:)

From a performance standpoint, aside from a couple of recent papers suggesting it could improve efficiency (running and cycling) I think it's not needed really. That said for well being, if an athlete still wanted to lift to not be the scrawny kid around the block then that's a different story :)

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The 8-10 hours of training, is that all s/b/r? Or does that include the strength training? And what are your exercises/intensity for the strength training?

It's hard to equate the no injuries = strength training when the times are so markedly different. It may be possible that you did not pursue recovery enough when you were doing near double the s/b/r that you are doing now.

John

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so you swam, ran and biked more and you got more overuse injuries? wow, that's a stunner.

To the OP:

pros: it's good for your health and you will look better naked

cons: it will result in you doing less s/b/r and therefore you won't be as fast as you would if you spent that time s/b/r'ing.

Just decide which is more important to you. Personally, I lift some, but I didn't for the approximately 10 years when I spent a lot of time on SBR.

That's not really a fair statement. If he spends 3-4 hours a week lifting, then he's putting in the same amount of time training. Which is why I asked about it, I would suspect that the total time spent training is only different by an hour or two, but the recovery is different.

I think when he ramped up his s/b/r, he didn't allow sufficient recovery time. But, like most things, that's just a theory at this point.

John

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Cons: the only con I can think of is if you are doing hours a week and taking away from your key activities.

Pros: The use of activity specific strength training, IMO, can be a huge boon and help prevent injury in the long term. And that means you can train more often, instead of sitting on the coach or water jogging. This would include adding plyometrics to your track sessions etc...

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Ian

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

With all things, regardless of papers, it comes back to 'it depends'.

Does gravity work? Well, it depends. ;-)

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You stick to your papers mate...

:)

Looks like my papers help me do a pretty good job with the athletes I coach. Anyway, it's the crossfit season for you soon.

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Yup I'm sure they do, reading your site seems you have some solid age groupers congrats.

The stuff I posted above was all part of the plan for winning the world cup overall in 08.

So again, it depends on the athlete. Let's agree to disagree - I really don't like dick swinging contests.

 

What equipment and protocol did you use to test this?

velotron, Korr met cart with O2 and Co2. Vo2 max tests started at 60-100 watts and going up by X watts per minute until failure at 16-20 min. Did not test BL as I use more of a "staged" test for that where you sit at an effort for 3 min in order for BL values to saturate.

So in addition to the weights, you were doing 2-3 hours of IM effort riding? What effort were you doing on the skate skis?

Skate skis replaced long bikes, Total low-ball effort. for the long rides av HR is around 130-140, for skate skiing I would allow this to drift up by about 5 beats. IM stuff was done on Saturdays where the ride would be about 2-3 hours with about 40-100 min at just above IM tempo (about 5 beats or so) while monitoring power vs hr, we did mostly 20 min intervals.

So 180 on the leg press was a max effort at the beginning?


yes 180 lbs to start (fail on 20-25 reps then pull a 45, ie 180, 135, 90, 45)

Keeping in mind that in most of the earlier phases of strength training, the focus was balance, economy, efficiency and injury prevention. for most of us we can do this at home with about 100$ worth of bands, altus disc, swiss ball, a bit of core, exercise of your choice etc. At home it is also pretty easy to throw in 15 min here or there, I see nothing wrong with this approach as long as people like it and it works for them.

I wouldn't say that this particular phase in the gym is something every one "should" do, this is a variation on a variation of one way to go about reps and sets that may work for the right person at the right time.

In fact my whole strength program is a variation on a variation, taking some stuff from the former track coach here Derek Evely and some stuff from a pretty good Ag cyclist who used to live here Olav Stana, throw in a bit of my own stuff, mix with some trial and error and you have a program which works pretty well for some people but is and always should be evolving for the better.

For some people they never get to this point because we want to spend as much time as possible getting people strong enough so that they don't get injured when intensity picks up.

This is something an athlete "could" try to see if it fits their program. At the end of the day you would know after 2-3 weeks and a few tests with your power meter if it was right or should be dropped in favour of other training.

I am also curious to see if others have done "cut-downs" and how it has worked for them.

There was no Rugby World Cup in 08! Busted mate!

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None of the things you list are true strength work.

True strength work is useless when it interferes with sport-specific training, either through opportunity cost (you could have been doing something else) or failure to adequately recover and this reducing the effectiveness of subsequent sport-specific training. It is also useless if e training adaptations are counter-productive: the famous mitochondrial density and capillarization stuff.

And to the OP who thinks that 20-25 reps is anaerobic: wrong. It has a major aerobic component, so the fact that you increased the weight over your gaining period includes improving your aerobic capacity, which likely contributed to your improved power on the bike.

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but he's not spending 3 or 4 more hours training the same way. I think if you spend 12 hours per week sbr vs. 8 hrs per week sbr, your risk of an over use injury goes up no matter what you do with the "extra" 4 hours when you reduce sbr hours. If you spend the extra 4 hours lifting, you might hurt something else, but it's not going to cause, for example, plantar fasciitis or IT band syndrome or the other things that we have regular threads on.

Are you actually getting quality work done?

To that scenario I'd say forgo the chin-ups and take care of your life. Use that time to get the kitchen cleaned up, dishes done, and bills paid. If you are that crammed for time you are probably better off resting and giving yourself some down time.

Touche!

:)

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Glad you are out of the doping threads and discussing things like Mauna Kea and weights.

I was just doing body weight squats and calf raises for 30 minutes reading and re reading this thread....OK, not 30 minutes, just 2 minutes...

carry on.

I do find some of the best anaerobic training are 50m all out sprint and plymotrics.

After over a year of not being able to do them, I've just started that back last month.

Add in some deadlifts and ab work, and I feel like a normal human again.

Too much aerobic work sends my body out of balance....ancient hunters needed a balance of aerobic and anaerobic just to survive. As we age if we don't work the anaerobic system, will it gradually goes away (use it or lose it) and then the ancient hunter becomes excess baggage in society because he can't hunt anymore without an anaerobic system....think about that for a second guys....

Dev

Well, as soon as I get chase by a saber tooth, I'll think about sprints.

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