Login required to started new threads

Login required to post replies

Sore arm swimming on side I breathe from?
Quote | Reply
I recently increased my volume from average of 8000yards per week to 11,12K. I noticed last week my left arm was sore during the pull phase of my freestyle stroke. I can't pin point where its sore but it feels like below the shoulder (tricep/bicep area). But not entirely sure. It doesn't hurt at all after swimming and I tried pressing all over to see if I could find a sore spot but I can't. Its definetly worse this week and my swim times are dropping because I'm losing power in that arm. I heard that usually the shoulder/arm is sore on the opposite side you breather but not the same side. Any clues? Should I just take 3-4 days off or cut volume down? I have an ironman in 3 weeks!
Last edited by: TRIDAVID2: Jul 15, 14 6:05
Quote Reply
Re: Sore arm swimming on side I breathe from? [TRIDAVID2] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Maybe you're pulling harder with that arm?
Quote Reply
Re: Sore arm swimming on side I breathe from? [TRIDAVID2] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
TRIDAVID2 wrote:
I recently increased my volume from average of 8000yards per week to 11,12K. I noticed last week my left arm was sore during the pull phase of my freestyle stroke. I can't pin point where its sore but it feels like below the shoulder (tricep/bicep area). But not entirely sure. It doesn't hurt at all after swimming and I tried pressing all over to see if I could find a sore spot but I can't. Its definetly worse this week and my swim times are dropping because I'm losing power in that arm. I heard that usually the shoulder/arm is sore on the opposite side you breather but not the same side. Any clues? Should I just take 3-4 days off or cut volume down? I have an ironman in 3 weeks!

Prob just fatigue from your increased volume; if you want to keep volume the same, you could swim more 1-arm freestyle and 1-arm fly, swim more breaststroke, and/or kick more. OTOH, you'll be starting your taper soon right??? Obv you want to be sure the arm is not hurting on race day, so it might be better just to take a couple of days off. As someone said, better to be 10% under-trained and healthy than 1% over-trained:)


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
Quote Reply
Re: Sore arm swimming on side I breathe from? [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I took off Wednesday-Sunday from swimming. I swam today but after about 2000 yards I started feeling the same type of soreness. I only feel it when I am in the pull part of the stroke. I never had any issues before and I swam more volume last summer with my build up. I am swimming harder and pushing myself harder but I would figure 5 days off swimming would help. I did 1000y WU, 10x100 all out and 12x50 all out today. Am I swimming too hard? Could it be my bike position when I'm on the aero pads. I noticed that my left aero pad (side of arm soreness during swimming) is slightly lower then the right so maybe the added pressure on the arm is causing it?
Quote Reply
Re: Sore arm swimming on side I breathe from? [TRIDAVID2] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
TRIDAVID2 wrote:
I took off Wednesday-Sunday from swimming. I swam today but after about 2000 yards I started feeling the same type of soreness. I only feel it when I am in the pull part of the stroke. I never had any issues before and I swam more volume last summer with my build up. I am swimming harder and pushing myself harder but I would figure 5 days off swimming would help. I did 1000y WU, 10x100 all out and 12x50 all out today. Am I swimming too hard? Could it be my bike position when I'm on the aero pads. I noticed that my left aero pad (side of arm soreness during swimming) is slightly lower then the right so maybe the added pressure on the arm is causing it?

So, your left arm felt fine for the first 2000 yds??? If so, then it sounds like your arm is just getting tired during the workout. I would take maybe 2 more days off, then just keep your workouts at 2000 or less, and certainly just stop when the arm starts to hurt the least bit. You've only got 2 weeks to your race so you won't lose any fitness and in fact you should gain some swim strength from the resting since it sounds like you are just a little over-cooked. I would doubt that your bike position is affecting your swim pulling muscles at all really, just a whole diff use of the muscles.

Also, I would not say that you are swimming too hard per se but more just too much for your arms to handle at this point in time. Once you get past this soreness, you'll be able to do more:)


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
Quote Reply
Re: Sore arm swimming on side I breathe from? [TRIDAVID2] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I don't know if this is necessarily your problem, but when I pool swim, I constantly get a sore shoulder if I exceed 10k yds per week when breathing mostly to my stronger right side.

It took me awhile to figure out what motion exactly was causing the problem. It actually was NOT the most obvious culprit, meaning straining the shoulder from pulling too hard. Weirdly, I could use paddles all out and not make it significantly worse than swimming the same distance easy stroke (which often made it worse.) Very frustrating, as it actually became my main limiter in swim training when I wanted to ramp it up.

Turns out it's almost definitely the hi-elbow recovery part of my stroke. I only figured it out after using my Vasa swim trainer a lot, with sprints and super hard-effort pulls, and more volume than I did in the pool, yet having zero shoulder issues whatsoever. And I don't do some crazy high-elbow - in fact, my self-taught recovery phase of my stroke is likely a lot lower than the 'correct' method (I took a swim lesson with a high-level coach a few times, and he really emphasized a super high elbow recovery for me, unfortunately, which REALLY makes things bad for me.) Turns out this actually happens to other folks as well, at least according to the Vasa manual, since you can completely omit the high-recovery portion of the swim stroke on a Vasa trainer. (I suspect most Vasa users actually use it this way - doesn't seem to adversely affect in-water swimming whatsoever for me.)

It was counterintuitive for me, since you'd think the hi-load portion of the stroke would be the most problematic, but at least for me, it's the no-load recovery portion that seems to be a big problem. Makes me wonder if I have a labral injury on that side.

At least for me, right now the unexpected solution is to do the bulk of my swim volume on the Vasa trainer. Not saying you should do this as well (it's $$$), but it may be worth paying attention to the recovery portion of your stroke and seeing if modifying it reduces you shoulder pain.
Last edited by: lightheir: Jul 21, 14 19:35
Quote Reply
Re: Sore arm swimming on side I breathe from? [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I swam open water this AM for 1000 yards with no problem. And if I remember correctly that last summer when I was swimming more volume about 40% was open water. I wonder if my stroke is changed a bit in pool swimming?
Quote Reply
Re: Sore arm swimming on side I breathe from? [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
lightheir wrote:
I don't know if this is necessarily your problem, but when I pool swim, I constantly get a sore shoulder if I exceed 10k yds per week when breathing mostly to my stronger right side.

It took me awhile to figure out what motion exactly was causing the problem. It actually was NOT the most obvious culprit, meaning straining the shoulder from pulling too hard. Weirdly, I could use paddles all out and not make it significantly worse than swimming the same distance easy stroke (which often made it worse.) Very frustrating, as it actually became my main limiter in swim training when I wanted to ramp it up.

Turns out it's almost definitely the hi-elbow recovery part of my stroke. I only figured it out after using my Vasa swim trainer a lot, with sprints and super hard-effort pulls, and more volume than I did in the pool, yet having zero shoulder issues whatsoever. And I don't do some crazy high-elbow - in fact, my self-taught recovery phase of my stroke is likely a lot lower than the 'correct' method (I took a swim lesson with a high-level coach a few times, and he really emphasized a super high elbow recovery for me, unfortunately, which REALLY makes things bad for me.) Turns out this actually happens to other folks as well, at least according to the Vasa manual, since you can completely omit the high-recovery portion of the swim stroke on a Vasa trainer. (I suspect most Vasa users actually use it this way - doesn't seem to adversely affect in-water swimming whatsoever for me.)

It was counterintuitive for me, since you'd think the hi-load portion of the stroke would be the most problematic, but at least for me, it's the no-load recovery portion that seems to be a big problem. Makes me wonder if I have a labral injury on that side.

At least for me, right now the unexpected solution is to do the bulk of my swim volume on the Vasa trainer. Not saying you should do this as well (it's $$$), but it may be worth paying attention to the recovery portion of your stroke and seeing if modifying it reduces you shoulder pain.

I think this might be one of the drawbacks of the Vasa and the Stretch Cords, in that you can't really duplicate the recovery portion of the stroke without excessive shoulder strain. My deltoids have always been my limiting factor when getting back into the water after forced breaks in swim training due to my USAF deployments. I think we all simply have to allow time for all of the muscles involved in the stroke to adapt:)

LH - How is your swim training going these days, vis a vis your Vasa???


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
Quote Reply
Re: Sore arm swimming on side I breathe from? [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
@ Ericmulk -

I think you're misinterpreting my post. The Vasa completely relieves the pain of my shoulder because it omits the high shoulder recovery. And since that's a no-load portion of the stroke, it has no adverse effect on my pool or OWS (I was a bit surprised at that.)

I had some really bad shoulder problems BEFORE the Vasa, definitely anything over 10k/week. I toughed it out at one point to see if it would go away, and it got so bad at one point I couldn't even raise my arm over my head without severe pain. (I think I inflamed the shoulder from ignoring it.) Since going Vasa, I have had literally zero shoulder pain except for the rare pool session where I'll go 3000+, and it'll start reappearing. Absolutely zero shoulder pain on the Vasa, even when doing stuff like max-power 100m sprints, 30 of them in a row.


In terms of my swimming improvement, I've been very happy with it in the 7 months since adding a lot of Vasa to my regimen. I looked at my logs for the last 7 months and I was averaging 4-5 hours per week of 'swim' time, on average 3.5 with Vasa and 1-1.5 in the pool (max pool sessions were 30 minutes, due to it being my lunch break.) Not a ton of swimming, but given I was biking and running 10 hours on top of that, it was very significant for me, as I usually have to shortchange the swim a lot when I'm race prepping and biking/running a lot. My pool times have also dropped significantly - I did one masters workout with a triclub 2 weeks before my race and swam the entire 3000yd workout at my 200yd max pace from last year, never swimming slower than 1:30/100yds. The added volume has allowed me to break through an annoying plateau that I was stuck at prior to getting the Vasa.


Without doing any added intensity, I managed to drop 2 minutes from my HIM swim time that I did a few weeks ago. I'm still a MOPer only, and clocked in at 34, but that's a huge improvement from last season. Even better - I was totally fine on exiting the water, as opposed to feeling gassed last year at 2 mins slower. And I can pretty much credit the Vasa with pretty much all of that, as I have been in the pool the least I've ever done since getting the Vasa, and have never exceeded 2.5hrs of pool time in a single week, and averaged close to 1-1.5hrs per week of water time as said above. In fact, almost all my pool time was NOT hard workout sets, but actually technique refining, to make sure my Vasa form was being translated to the pool. (It's nearly impossible to do hard 10 x 200 sets when there are 3-4 noon swimmers, at least one of whom will be 1:50+/100) so literally all the fitness I gained was Vasa gains.

And the fitness component can't be underestimated, even for MOPers like myself. It's stunningly obvious even to me, that my arm endurance and ability to repeatedly pull hard is SOOO much better than ever. It's so much better than I can intentionally screw up my technique, or sight like crazy with head out of water, and still smoke my old self. I think triathletes also really underestimate how effective swim volume is - the Vasa isn't some magic device that allows 'super training', but it's a device that allows you to put in quailty volume (and intensity if you'd like) without the pool.

Again, I'm really surprised how few people have this device on these forums, considering how many people who complain about their swim underperformance don't even hesitate to drop money on multiple Zipp wheel sets and Quarq powermeters. Maybe everyone else just has way more pool time and pool acessibility than me, but for my busy schedule and limited pool hours (of which it's almost always a crappy circle swim with recreational swimmers at the Y), the Vasa has been my best tri/sports investment - it's been a lot better than I expected, and good enough that even if you offered me an endless pool or in-ground pool, I woudn't take it, as the Vasa is completely maintenance free and works so well for me. I used to constantly stress about swim training and how to fit it in, and how to work around the slowsters in the lane at lunch, but now that stress is completely gone.

Yes, I'm shilling for them, but I'm honestly not trying to oversell it at all - it really does all that I've said of it.
Last edited by: lightheir: Jul 22, 14 12:17
Quote Reply
Re: Sore arm swimming on side I breathe from? [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Just coincidentally, I happened to see this new post from Russel Mark today re: freestyle recovery, thought I'd share.

http://www.usaswimming.org/...d=6219&mid=14491

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
Quote Reply
Re: Sore arm swimming on side I breathe from? [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
lightheir wrote:
@ Ericmulk -
I think you're misinterpreting my post. The Vasa completely relieves the pain of my shoulder because it omits the high shoulder recovery. And since that's a no-load portion of the stroke, it has no adverse effect on my pool or OWS (I was a bit surprised at that.)
I had some really bad shoulder problems BEFORE the Vasa, definitely anything over 10k/week. I toughed it out at one point to see if it would go away, and it got so bad at one point I couldn't even raise my arm over my head without severe pain. (I think I inflamed the shoulder from ignoring it.) Since going Vasa, I have had literally zero shoulder pain except for the rare pool session where I'll go 3000+, and it'll start reappearing. Absolutely zero shoulder pain on the Vasa, even when doing stuff like max-power 100m sprints, 30 of them in a row.
In terms of my swimming improvement, I've been very happy with it in the 7 months since adding a lot of Vasa to my regimen. I looked at my logs for the last 7 months and I was averaging 4-5 hours per week of 'swim' time, on average 3.5 with Vasa and 1-1.5 in the pool (max pool sessions were 30 minutes, due to it being my lunch break.) Not a ton of swimming, but given I was biking and running 10 hours on top of that, it was very significant for me, as I usually have to shortchange the swim a lot when I'm race prepping and biking/running a lot. My pool times have also dropped significantly - I did one masters workout with a triclub 2 weeks before my race and swam the entire 3000yd workout at my 200yd max pace from last year, never swimming slower than 1:30/100yds. The added volume has allowed me to break through an annoying plateau that I was stuck at prior to getting the Vasa.
Without doing any added intensity, I managed to drop 2 minutes from my HIM swim time that I did a few weeks ago. I'm still a MOPer only, and clocked in at 34, but that's a huge improvement from last season. Even better - I was totally fine on exiting the water, as opposed to feeling gassed last year at 2 mins slower. And I can pretty much credit the Vasa with pretty much all of that, as I have been in the pool the least I've ever done since getting the Vasa, and have never exceeded 2.5hrs of pool time in a single week, and averaged close to 1-1.5hrs per week of water time as said above. In fact, almost all my pool time was NOT hard workout sets, but actually technique refining, to make sure my Vasa form was being translated to the pool. (It's nearly impossible to do hard 10 x 200 sets when there are 3-4 noon swimmers, at least one of whom will be 1:50+/100) so literally all the fitness I gained was Vasa gains.
And the fitness component can't be underestimated, even for MOPers like myself. It's stunningly obvious even to me, that my arm endurance and ability to repeatedly pull hard is SOOO much better than ever. It's so much better than I can intentionally screw up my technique, or sight like crazy with head out of water, and still smoke my old self. I think triathletes also really underestimate how effective swim volume is - the Vasa isn't some magic device that allows 'super training', but it's a device that allows you to put in quality volume (and intensity if you'd like) without the pool.
Again, I'm really surprised how few people have this device on these forums, considering how many people who complain about their swim underperformance don't even hesitate to drop money on multiple Zipp wheel sets and Quarq powermeters. Maybe everyone else just has way more pool time and pool acessibility than me, but for my busy schedule and limited pool hours (of which it's almost always a crappy circle swim with recreational swimmers at the Y), the Vasa has been my best tri/sports investment - it's been a lot better than I expected, and good enough that even if you offered me an endless pool or in-ground pool, I woudn't take it, as the Vasa is completely maintenance free and works so well for me. I used to constantly stress about swim training and how to fit it in, and how to work around the slowsters in the lane at lunch, but now that stress is completely gone.
Yes, I'm shilling for them, but I'm honestly not trying to oversell it at all - it really does all that I've said of it.

LH - I understand that the Vasa allows you to do good solid swim training w/o the stress on your shoulder, and clearly the Vasa has been of benefit to you. You may indeed continue to improve your swim using the Vasa for 75% or so of your training, with just the 1-1.5 hr/wk in the water. Also, you are totally correct that volume is crucial in swim training, which leads into the point I am trying to make, i.e. that, if a person does "normal" swim training in the water for the bulk of their training, then the lack of a good simulation of the arm recovery over the water is going to bite them eventually, because those deltoids are going to start hurting before the lats, triceps, and biceps do, since the lats/tri/biceps have been conditioned by the trainer whereas the delts have not been getting used as much on the Vasa as they are in actual in-water swimming. Using the college swimmer you gave as an example a few weeks ago, who maintained his fitness just using the Vasa, I would imagine that, while he could still swim pretty fast for 200, 500, or 1000 yds, once he started back to swimming the normal college swimmer yardage his delts were prob on fire. This is really my only point, and it may not even be relevant for you:)


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
Quote Reply
Re: Sore arm swimming on side I breathe from? [TRIDAVID2] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I breath naturally to the left, and when I swim a ton my right shoulder gets tired first. To counteract i have (especially this year) concentrated on bi-lateral breathing.
- I swim bi-lateral in warm up, but...
- I tend to go back to breathing to one side when going fast/sprinting, or the interval is very tight.
- In mid distance sets (400m) I try to do the first 1/2 bi-lateral, and one side for the last half.
- Open water I do as much bi-lateral as the conditions allow.

I've found bi-lateral breathing is the secret to making sure both my shoulders are fatigued equally. :-)

(If they don't I am clearly not swimming enough.)

________________________________________________
Proud member of FISHTWITCH: beating you to T1 for over a decade, and working on beating you to T2...
Quote Reply
Re: Sore arm swimming on side I breathe from? [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
@ eric - I hear you on the delt fatigue due to Vasa, but I actually think it's much smaller of an issue than you say it is.

One of my biggest worries with the Vasa at first was losing the natural motion of the elbow recovery, or early fatigue once in pool/OWS with the arm recovery. At least for me, it takes minimal pool time (like 30 mins per week of easy swimming) to maintain it, probably because it's a 'no-load' portion of the stroke.

I would however completely agree that a college swimmer on Vasa who went back to 60-80k/wk in the pool, would likely really feel some delt suffering! At that volume, you really have to have the delts plugged in as well! (I can't imagine anyone would go do over 20k/week on the vasa though.)

Thanks for the helpful insights though - always like hearing you chime in
Last edited by: lightheir: Jul 23, 14 14:54
Quote Reply
Re: Sore arm swimming on side I breathe from? [TriSliceRS] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
TriSliceRS wrote:
I breath naturally to the left, and when I swim a ton my right shoulder gets tired first. To counteract i have (especially this year) concentrated on bi-lateral breathing.
- I swim bi-lateral in warm up, but...
- I tend to go back to breathing to one side when going fast/sprinting, or the interval is very tight.
- In mid distance sets (400m) I try to do the first 1/2 bi-lateral, and one side for the last half.
- Open water I do as much bi-lateral as the conditions allow.

I've found bi-lateral breathing is the secret to making sure both my shoulders are fatigued equally. :-)

(If they don't I am clearly not swimming enough.)

Interesting. I have found I need more air when I push hard.

At the start of a race I breath 1-1. After I settle a little, I now seem to go to 3-4. I have found by doing this I do not panic attack, and can keep up a faster effort since I am never lacking for air.

.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
Quote Reply
Re: Sore arm swimming on side I breathe from? [TRIDAVID2] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Have you tried rolling the outside of the upper arm/bicep?

Use a lacrosse ball or hard fitness rubber ball
Position between a wall the upper arm (on the side, like where you get a needle/shot)
Lean on it and Roll aggressively for sensitive areas.

Training Tweets: https://twitter.com/Jagersport_com
FM Sports: http://fluidmotionsports.com
Quote Reply
Re: Sore arm swimming on side I breathe from? [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
lightheir wrote:
@ eric - I hear you on the delt fatigue due to Vasa, but I actually think it's much smaller of an issue than you say it is.
One of my biggest worries with the Vasa at first was losing the natural motion of the elbow recovery, or early fatigue once in pool/OWS with the arm recovery. At least for me, it takes minimal pool time (like 30 min per week of easy swimming) to maintain it, probably because it's a 'no-load' portion of the stroke.
I would however completely agree that a college swimmer on Vasa who went back to 60-80k/wk in the pool, would likely really feel some delt suffering! At that volume, you really have to have the delts plugged in as well! (I can't imagine anyone would go do over 20k/week on the vasa though.)
Thanks for the helpful insights though - always like hearing you chime in

I think you are "maintaining" your delt usage to some degree with your in-water swimming but the real test would be if say you went on vacation and stayed somewhere at/near a decent pool, left your Vasa at home, and just swam an hour or so every day, then we'd see what your delts felt like after say the 3rd day:) When I came home on leave during my last tour in AFG, I was home 16 days and I had planned to swim every single day but I could only tolerate 12 days of swimming, because my delts just hurt too damn much. I had done lots of work with the tubing, pull-ups, push-ups, etc, but none of that works the delts the way swimming does:)

Despite the above, it sounds like the Vasa has become a great tool for you, and you've even caused me to consider getting one. I have easy access to two pools though, and I really like being in the water, so I think I might not be use the Vasa that much.


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
Quote Reply
Re: Sore arm swimming on side I breathe from? [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I swam open water again yesterday....2000 yards with no problem. I didn't push too hard though. I did notice my arm was sore on my long bike ride. I notice it when I'm climbing hills and pulling on the bars. Maybe I'm over thinking things....
Quote Reply
Re: Sore arm swimming on side I breathe from? [TRIDAVID2] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
TRIDAVID2 wrote:
I swam open water again yesterday....2000 yards with no problem. I didn't push too hard though. I did notice my arm was sore on my long bike ride. I notice it when I'm climbing hills and pulling on the bars. Maybe I'm over thinking things....

Did you do your long ride right after your swim yesterday??? Also, when exactly is your race??? You certainly don't want a sore arm bothering you throughout the bike, and then possibly on the run also.


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
Quote Reply