If my memory is correct, Jordan Rapp tested this at Specialized and didn't see a difference whereas the NoPinz guys tested their number pocket against a belt and found a savings of 3-5 watts.
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Re: Some random wind tunnel observations and datapoints [longtrousers]
[ In reply to ]
Re: Some random wind tunnel observations and datapoints [leegoocrap]
[ In reply to ]
has anybody tested the affect of stuff in back pockets? My nutrition plan for half's on my new bike is an EFS liquid shot in each of the two pockets on the castelli T1. Trying to keep the bike clean and hoped this wouldn't add much drag.
Re: Some random wind tunnel observations and datapoints [longtrousers]
[ In reply to ]
longtrousers wrote:
Thanks for sharing. I wonder if people ever measured the drag of a racenumber with a belt which you have to wear at nearly every triathlon. Whether that deletes the advantage of a suit over two-part wear for example.
Related to that: I watched the WC Kona carefully again on youtube, but I didn't see any belts with numbers, also not with the AG, am I blind or do you not have to wear a number on the bike in Kona?
For short course racing here in NA, the only race I've ever "had" to wear my number belt on the bike was ITU Chicago.
Re: Some random wind tunnel observations and datapoints [Sean H]
[ In reply to ]
Never tested it, but low back *can be a sensitive area... If there was a clean option elsewhere I would move it there to be safe
My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com
My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com
Re: Some random wind tunnel observations and datapoints [leegoocrap]
[ In reply to ]
leegoocrap wrote:
Never tested it, but low back *can be a sensitive area... If there was a clean option elsewhere I would move it there to be safeI take some credit for popularizing this a while back:
http://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/company-us/all-3m-products/~/3M-Super-77-Multi-Purpose-Adhesive?N=5002385+3294224953+4294924301&rt=rud
Works great for OBRA bibs. I don't know if it works with triathlon numbers though.
My latest book: "Out of the Melting Pot, Into the Fire" is on sale on Amazon and at other online and local booksellers
Re: Some random wind tunnel observations and datapoints [jens]
[ In reply to ]
jens wrote:
leegoocrap wrote:
Works great for OBRA bibs. I don't know if it works with triathlon numbers though.
Works with everything I've ever tried it on, e.g. paper-based or nylon-based numbers
Re: Some random wind tunnel observations and datapoints [jens]
[ In reply to ]
I'm interested to see a picture of you 3m adhesiving what you keep in your back pockets... ;) I assume he was talking about nutrition
My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com
My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com
Re: Some random wind tunnel observations and datapoints [jens]
[ In reply to ]
jens wrote:
Andrew Coggan wrote:
Did you test different saddle heights in the wind tunnel?Not in isolation. We raised the saddle by 2cm and bars by ~6cm at the same time. We made the latter change by switching from FSA Vision bars to 3T Aura Pros and adding a bunch of risers. Average drag was slightly (30grams) lower.
So no apples to apples --or even fruit to fruit-- comparison. More like fruit to vegetable. ;-)
Thanks for sharing. It sounds like you were happy with Faster?
Re: Some random wind tunnel observations and datapoints [James Haycraft]
[ In reply to ]
Thank you. That is good info.
Castelli claims their speedsuit "saves 10-15w at 25mph". The cop out is always "your results may vary".
Difficult to find test data with brand names etc, although there is a fair amount of this study on just fabrics.
BioRacer at least addresses fit issues, esp at the armpits, or at the neck as it is tailored to the individual.
Lexxi suits are also same price range with tailoring and paneling of specific fabrics.
In god we trust, all others bring data.
Anne Barnes
ABBikefit, Ltd
FIST/SICI/FIST DOWN DEEP
X/Y Coordinator
abbikefit@gmail.com
Castelli claims their speedsuit "saves 10-15w at 25mph". The cop out is always "your results may vary".
Difficult to find test data with brand names etc, although there is a fair amount of this study on just fabrics.
BioRacer at least addresses fit issues, esp at the armpits, or at the neck as it is tailored to the individual.
Lexxi suits are also same price range with tailoring and paneling of specific fabrics.
In god we trust, all others bring data.
Anne Barnes
ABBikefit, Ltd
FIST/SICI/FIST DOWN DEEP
X/Y Coordinator
abbikefit@gmail.com
Re: Some random wind tunnel observations and datapoints [ABarnes]
[ In reply to ]
ABarnes wrote:
Thank you. That is good info. Castelli claims their speedsuit "saves 10-15w at 25mph". The cop out is always "your results may vary".
Difficult to find test data with brand names etc, although there is a fair amount of this study on just fabrics.
BioRacer at least addresses fit issues, esp at the armpits, or at the neck as it is tailored to the individual.
Lexxi suits are also same price range with tailoring and paneling of specific fabrics.
In god we trust, all others bring data.
Interestingly, the delta between my two piece tri kit (B70 TX2000) and my Castelli BP3 TT skinsuit was ~.004 Cda. So yea, notttt quite "10-15w."
And that skinsuit fits real good.
Re: Some random wind tunnel observations and datapoints [ABarnes]
[ In reply to ]
ABarnes wrote:
Castelli claims their speedsuit "saves 10-15w at 25mph". The cop out is always "your results may vary".
Difficult to find test data with brand names etc, although there is a fair amount of this study on just fabrics.
BioRacer at least addresses fit issues, esp at the armpits, or at the neck as it is tailored to the individual.
Lexxi suits are also same price range with tailoring and paneling of specific fabrics.
Personally I think the tailored option is the way to go albeit incredibly expensive. If you want some more data I tested 4 kits. 2xu sleeveles skit, 2xu sleeved kit, and two different sized Coure kits. All data here:
Save: $50 on Speed Hound Recovery Boots | $20 on Air Relax| $100 on Normatec| 15% on Most Absorbable Magnesium
Blogs: Best CHEAP Zwift / Bike Trainer Desk | Theragun G3 vs $140 Bivi Percussive Massager | Normatec Pulse 2.0 vs Normatec Pulse | Speed Hound vs Normatec | Air Relax vs Normatec | Q1 2018 Blood Test Results | | Why HED JET+ Is The BEST value wheelset
Last edited by:
Thomas Gerlach: Mar 17, 17 13:58
Re: Some random wind tunnel observations and datapoints [EnderWiggan]
[ In reply to ]
EnderWiggan wrote:
If you haven't read Cody's wind tunnel article it's a great read. I frequently find myself going back to it for reference.Give me some feedback. How can I adjust my own writing to get your recommendation. Fwiw, I am in the process of writing up another athletes results so I will think about your criticism and try to address in my next version.
Save: $50 on Speed Hound Recovery Boots | $20 on Air Relax| $100 on Normatec| 15% on Most Absorbable Magnesium
Blogs: Best CHEAP Zwift / Bike Trainer Desk | Theragun G3 vs $140 Bivi Percussive Massager | Normatec Pulse 2.0 vs Normatec Pulse | Speed Hound vs Normatec | Air Relax vs Normatec | Q1 2018 Blood Test Results | | Why HED JET+ Is The BEST value wheelset
Re: Some random wind tunnel observations and datapoints [Thomas Gerlach]
[ In reply to ]
awesome.
Link is broken?
Anne Barnes
ABBikefit, Ltd
FIST/SICI/FIST DOWN DEEP
X/Y Coordinator
abbikefit@gmail.com
Link is broken?
Anne Barnes
ABBikefit, Ltd
FIST/SICI/FIST DOWN DEEP
X/Y Coordinator
abbikefit@gmail.com
Re: Some random wind tunnel observations and datapoints [ABarnes]
[ In reply to ]
Somehow extra http: got added to the end, sorry about that. Try this
Save: $50 on Speed Hound Recovery Boots | $20 on Air Relax| $100 on Normatec| 15% on Most Absorbable Magnesium
Blogs: Best CHEAP Zwift / Bike Trainer Desk | Theragun G3 vs $140 Bivi Percussive Massager | Normatec Pulse 2.0 vs Normatec Pulse | Speed Hound vs Normatec | Air Relax vs Normatec | Q1 2018 Blood Test Results | | Why HED JET+ Is The BEST value wheelset
Save: $50 on Speed Hound Recovery Boots | $20 on Air Relax| $100 on Normatec| 15% on Most Absorbable Magnesium
Blogs: Best CHEAP Zwift / Bike Trainer Desk | Theragun G3 vs $140 Bivi Percussive Massager | Normatec Pulse 2.0 vs Normatec Pulse | Speed Hound vs Normatec | Air Relax vs Normatec | Q1 2018 Blood Test Results | | Why HED JET+ Is The BEST value wheelset
Last edited by:
Thomas Gerlach: Mar 17, 17 13:58
Re: Some random wind tunnel observations and datapoints [jens]
[ In reply to ]
jens wrote:
2) More drop isn't always better. How your body achieves that drop matters. I went from ~14cm drop to ~10 and ended up with less drag. That's really big, because for me, 4cm less drop also means ~15 watts more power output.
Good stuff, Jens!
For sure, effective reach can be impacted by how low one chooses to have their bars. However, if one maintains their effective reach while changing drop, the average change in cxa is about 1% per cm. For reach, it's about 1% change in cxa per 2cm. Tippin' it can be a bummer (y axis is axial force in the image below):
Quote:
3) Helmets really, really matter. In my case, the difference between two aero helmets was over 100 grams of drag.I don't know what speed your were running at, but here's an early sampling from my database of the delta between a vented road helmet and an aero helmet:
http://www.biketechreview.com/...49-aero-helmets-work
IME, a good head position is pretty robust to helmet choice. Some thoughts on head position here:
=================
Kraig Willett
http://www.biketechreview.com - check out our reduced report pricing
=================
Re: Some random wind tunnel observations and datapoints [leegoocrap]
[ In reply to ]
leegoocrap wrote:
longtrousers wrote:
Thanks for sharing. I wonder if people ever measured the drag of a racenumber with a belt which you have to wear at nearly every triathlon. Whether that deletes the advantage of a suit over two-part wear for example.
Related to that: I watched the WC Kona carefully again on youtube, but I didn't see any belts with numbers, also not with the AG, am I blind or do you not have to wear a number on the bike in Kona?
Many years ago I tested race number position (belt) on my tri bike at a2, there was a 5 watts difference between low on my back and high (like a hr strap high) on my bike) and about 8w difference wearing it on my front (low back was best)
Wearing on a 2pc tri kit was worse than on a one piece (an old LG two piece and a 1 pc Desoto, both 2010'ish neither with any kind of sleeves)
Draw from that whatever (if anything) you would.
Thank you. Wow, a lot of difference for such a belt. Probably the difference of wearing one or not will then also be at least 5w.
Interesting that in America you normally do not wear a bodynumber on the bike. Here in Europe my only experience is that you have to.
Re: Some random wind tunnel observations and datapoints [Thomas Gerlach]
[ In reply to ]
wonderful writeup, and great blog.
favoriting, following and cheering you on.
Anne Barnes
ABBikefit, Ltd
FIST/SICI/FIST DOWN DEEP
X/Y Coordinator
abbikefit@gmail.com
favoriting, following and cheering you on.
Anne Barnes
ABBikefit, Ltd
FIST/SICI/FIST DOWN DEEP
X/Y Coordinator
abbikefit@gmail.com
Re: Some random wind tunnel observations and datapoints [jkhayc]
[ In reply to ]
It's about 15-20 watts compared to the next best suit.
$1850 for 2 suits like Ann said.
+ free shoe covers and gloves
$1850 for 2 suits like Ann said.
+ free shoe covers and gloves
Re: Some random wind tunnel observations and datapoints [jens]
[ In reply to ]
"The drop/power differences are based on my own long-term experience. I'm probably an an extreme example in this regard. Even with the clown cranks, going from a road position to 14cm drop decreases power over 30 watts.
What is your drop in your road position?
What is your drop in your road position?
Re: Some random wind tunnel observations and datapoints [AG]
[ In reply to ]
0. Although the comparison is not particularly meaningful since "drop to elbow pads" and "drop to brakehoods" are two completely different things.
My latest book: "Out of the Melting Pot, Into the Fire" is on sale on Amazon and at other online and local booksellers
0. Although the comparison is not particularly meaningful since "drop to elbow pads" and "drop to brakehoods" are two completely different things.
Your road position drop (saddle to hoods) is zero? As in there is no drop? Weird that's almost a bike packing / touring setup. I'm trying to understand how you can lose 30 watts. It would seem that you would need some serious torso to thigh angle compression to lose that much power. At 14cm TT drop I don't get it.
Your road position drop (saddle to hoods) is zero? As in there is no drop? Weird that's almost a bike packing / touring setup. I'm trying to understand how you can lose 30 watts. It would seem that you would need some serious torso to thigh angle compression to lose that much power. At 14cm TT drop I don't get it.