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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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desert dude wrote:
I'd say that ~35mpw +/- a few is appropriate. You can maintain with 20-50% less depending upon which study you are reading.

That's what I am hoping... already looking forward to doing this again next winter... another side effect of the block was that I actually enjoy the running now. Thanks for taking the time to reply.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [James Haycraft] [ In reply to ]
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James Haycraft wrote:
3Aims wrote:
I swim, bike wth 2-3 of the most popular tri coaches in my area. Maybe they all suck too. None of them are even close to recommending that mileage or do/did it themselves....and they are KQers


If you're basing what to do off the popular tri coaches in your area because of the fact that they are KQers, I see where your problem is.

I don't. Point was I just don't know anyone recommending 16x50. I have number of books and other plans (I like to study different HIM/IMplans). Still looking for something recommending that.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [James Haycraft] [ In reply to ]
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James Haycraft wrote:
It's amusing that the people who have posted on this thread that have ACTUALLY TRIED THIS PLAN are all posting about improvements. Everyone else is just scared of it.

Why not 60x16? Or 70x16? Don't you think the burden of proof on 800 miles of running in 120 days should come from the OP?
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Last edited by: 3Aims: May 17, 12 18:04
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [3Aims] [ In reply to ]
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Because the law of diminishing returns on aerobic miles appears to diminish at a certain point. The burden of proof is showcased in his athletes.
Last edited by: James Haycraft: May 17, 12 18:07
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [Grant.Reuter] [ In reply to ]
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Grant.Reuter wrote:
Its cool though Dave,

I can play the arbitrary race results game too

http://athlinks.com/...9/22642481/115780870

Dave Campbell- 1:32/100m, 19.45mph bike, 7:24/ mile run for a sprint.

http://athlinks.com/...65/45940845/96448040

Grant Reuter 1:15/100m, 24.63mph bike, 6:35/mile run for a sprint

That was fun!!

Have to admit I got a "chuckle" from this.....
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [James Haycraft] [ In reply to ]
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James Haycraft wrote:
Because the law of diminishing returns on aerobic miles appears to diminish at a certain point. The burden of proof is showcased in his athletes.

He's not following that this isn't a training plan for a half iron, iron or any other race. It's an offseason run improvement plan. If it was six months it wouldn't be offseason anymore.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [Grant.Reuter] [ In reply to ]
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I guess I struggle with the offseason. I raced Miami 70.3 and did IMSG. Who has time for an offseason?
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [James Haycraft] [ In reply to ]
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James Haycraft wrote:
Because the law of diminishing returns on aerobic miles appears to diminish at a certain point. The burden of proof is showcased in his athletes.

So why not 40x16 or 35x16? Why is 50x16 the magic number?
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [3Aims] [ In reply to ]
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3Aims wrote:
I guess I struggle with the offseason. I raced Miami 70.3 and did IMSG. Who has time for an offseason?


Anyone that wants to improve in the long-term.

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So why not 40x16 or 35x16? Why is 50x16 the magic number?



I think you're focusing on the wrong thing. The number was just a number. The point is an increase in your recent run volume. Many triathletes run 25-35 miles/week. So a logical big (but not too big) increase is 50mi/week.


I'm not speaking for the OP. I'm just guessing.


But I think in the end, you're well and truly missing the point of the "challenge." By a lot.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [3Aims] [ In reply to ]
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The swim was kinda absurd because I was able to run a good chunk of it. I really can't swim that fast :) but that was my point I would have to explain every race in context because I'm not a pro doing perfect training full time so some races are shit, some are good, some they don't know how to measure and some have hard bike and run course Or some I take pictures with Disney characters. Given that I'm not full time training those differences are magnified more than a pro who is more or less consistent. So Dave going do what I do an posting a time is worthless.

Anyways back to an intelligent conversation at least. If you want to get faster you have to at least have a pseudo offseason at some point. The reason this is, is because maximal gains come with over stressing the muscles and having them rebuild etc. Well there is a limit to how much you can do this on a Tri only plan. But If you take four months and have a run focus. You aren't going to lose anything on the bike and swim you can't quickly get back. And you will make improvements on the run that aren't possible on a Tri plan.

I think we would both agree I'd two people are running 20 mpw and one decides to start doing 50 and the other one stays at 20 the 50 mpw person will get faster. I think the problem is youre just over concerned with fitness loss that really isn't as bad as you think. It's not a matter of time for an offseason if you want to peak at races you need to make time for it so you can have better gains. Trying to peak for everything will make you peak for nothing
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [3Aims] [ In reply to ]
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3Aims wrote:
James Haycraft wrote:
3Aims wrote:
I swim, bike wth 2-3 of the most popular tri coaches in my area. Maybe they all suck too. None of them are even close to recommending that mileage or do/did it themselves....and they are KQers


If you're basing what to do off the popular tri coaches in your area because of the fact that they are KQers, I see where your problem is.


I don't. Point was I just don't know anyone recommending 16x50. I have number of books and other plans (I like to study different HIM/IMplans). Still looking for something recommending that.

you would never find one of those plans that would recommend this. But not because it doesn't work.
I think we have reached the point in this thread where your mind is completely closed off to what Brian and others are saying. But as others have said, the proof of what it does it out there.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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I'm in: I start tomorrow. goal will be between 40 and 50 mpw. Plan on doing this for June/July/Aug/Sept. I plan on doing one 4000 yrd swm a week - and three bike sessions, two 1.5 hr and the other 3+hrs working up to 6/7/8ish. I'm in education so it's my professional 'off season'.

I'll have at least two sprints that fall in this time period that will receive no reduction in workout (no taper) and an Ultra distance (1st one) at the end of October.
Wish me luck.




desert dude wrote:
There are quite a few threads about reaching some target for the month of Nov. Be it S/B/R. In the scope of your triathlon racing, do you really think that this is going to make you faster? Do you really think that this challenge is going to carry over to your races next March, May or July? If so you are smoking crack and I'd advise that you stop. Stop Now. Before you set yourself up for disappointment.

Challenges are great for things like raising money, climbing to the top of a summit of some really tall mountain, hiking a 40 mile trail in under 20hrs. Challenges are not great for you tri training at the end of your season. It's like eating the turkey then trying to make a turkey sandwich. Where is the meat? You can't make a sandwich with just two peices of bread. It's just bread and mustard, there is no sand in your wich.

If you really want a challenge, I have one for you. One that will make you a better triathlete runner. One that will increase your runnning fitness and cause you to strike fear into the hearts of your fellow competitors. Starting NOW, I challenge you to really make a difference in your ability to race a triathlon.

My challenge is for you to run 200 miles per month, every month for the next four months. You must run at least 200 per month and you must get your long run up to 2hrs by the end of month 2 and 2:30 by the end of month 4. You must run at least one other run every week at least 60min in length and your average duration can not be below 25min run. You must swim and ride a total of 4X per week and the length of these is not really important. (in other words don't be a dummy and go ride 2x100mile per week or swim 2x9000 (tigerchik this is really for you ;-)) shelling yourself for your running.) The goal is to raise your running to a new fitness level.

If you want a challenge that will make you faster and fitter and carry over into your triathlon season making you a better racer this is it. If you want to challenge yourself in a half ass way that will not then this is not for you.

For those of you who will take the half assed challenges, may this thread run through your head as you read and watch the calfs of your fellow AG competitors run away from you. For those of you who will take the Full Ass Challenge, you better learn to count b/c you are going to run out of fingers counting the people you run past.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [PapaBear] [ In reply to ]
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I'm three weeks into it. So far - I'm realizing that 40 mpw is going to be the 'target' (>40mpw for the three weeks) - It's funny, some runs I feel like I struggle and others I feel great. Just gonna keep on trucking.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [PapaBear] [ In reply to ]
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Go Papa.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [PapaBear] [ In reply to ]
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update:

did a PR for the bike and run portion for a sprint race this weekend.

...gonna keep on trucking
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [PapaBear] [ In reply to ]
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Well, this definately works. I have PR'd my last two run splits on this method. Very minimal speed (or 'quality') in training for the last 8 weeks. There is a bridge I run up and down occassionaly but for running its mostly LSD in the 30/40 mpw range.

to the OP (and anyone else who has had a build similar to this)... Should I continue doing the LSD for a few more months? or start adding higher intensity stuff. I was thinking about adding a 5k TT every other week, but not sure if this would be counterproductive in the great scheme. My last race was a 6:40ish mile (for a sprint). I weigh 195 lbs so obviously getting to 180 would help, but as far as training alone is concerned, I'd be wondering to hear what you guys have to say.


(FYI - my swim is constant and bike is slightly improved by doing this method)


- As for now, Papa's gonna keep on truckin




PapaBear wrote:
update:

did a PR for the bike and run portion for a sprint race this weekend.

...gonna keep on trucking
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [sentania] [ In reply to ]
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sentania wrote:

You have two choices - suck or don't suck.

If you don't mind sucking - ignore brian's advice; and stop telling people it's a bad idea.

If you wish to not suck - this is a very good path to begin the journey of not sucking.

^^^

2012/2013 challenge???
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [BrianD] [ In reply to ]
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I am kinda in, I do not worry about the total miles but I think I am doing more than the 200
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Guess by this stage this question may have answered itself.. no challenge this year Brian? :( The masochist in me was looking forward to it so I guess I'll just have to do it on my own.

Adam
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Funny thing is I took all of last year (with the exception of a few MTB/Xterra events for fun) off from triathlon and got the trail running bug. After a year on the trails, running regularly upwards of 60MPW I have found a passion I didn't have before in triathlon. I am taking up Duathlon for 2013 while still running long trail days for my training. A bonus of my foray away from tri has been a huge gain in endurance and running speed. Want to get bitch schooled in a race? Try short course duathlon! Man there is some great talent out there doing those events, I was humbled, being smoked like a cheap cigar by a guy 20 years my senior at the Auburn World's Toughest Du last year.


Dave Stark
dreamcatcher@astound.net
USAC & USAT level 2 certified coach
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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desert dude wrote:
There are quite a few threads about reaching some target for the month of Nov. Be it S/B/R. In the scope of your triathlon racing, do you really think that this is going to make you faster? Do you really think that this challenge is going to carry over to your races next March, May or July? If so you are smoking crack and I'd advise that you stop. Stop Now. Before you set yourself up for disappointment.

Challenges are great for things like raising money, climbing to the top of a summit of some really tall mountain, hiking a 40 mile trail in under 20hrs. Challenges are not great for you tri training at the end of your season. It's like eating the turkey then trying to make a turkey sandwich. Where is the meat? You can't make a sandwich with just two peices of bread. It's just bread and mustard, there is no sand in your wich.

If you really want a challenge, I have one for you. One that will make you a better triathlete runner. One that will increase your runnning fitness and cause you to strike fear into the hearts of your fellow competitors. Starting NOW, I challenge you to really make a difference in your ability to race a triathlon.

My challenge is for you to run 200 miles per month, every month for the next four months. You must run at least 200 per month and you must get your long run up to 2hrs by the end of month 2 and 2:30 by the end of month 4. You must run at least one other run every week at least 60min in length and your average duration can not be below 25min run. You must swim and ride a total of 4X per week and the length of these is not really important. (in other words don't be a dummy and go ride 2x100mile per week or swim 2x9000 (tigerchik this is really for you ;-)) shelling yourself for your running.) The goal is to raise your running to a new fitness level.

If you want a challenge that will make you faster and fitter and carry over into your triathlon season making you a better racer this is it. If you want to challenge yourself in a half ass way that will not then this is not for you.

For those of you who will take the half assed challenges, may this thread run through your head as you read and watch the calfs of your fellow AG competitors run away from you. For those of you who will take the Full Ass Challenge, you better learn to count b/c you are going to run out of fingers counting the people you run past.

Here for 2 reasons:

1. Eat crow (I'm somewhere in this thread saying it's bad advice and a one way ticket to getting hurt)
2. Damn, brother. It has literally turned back my clock. Age up to 45-49 this year. Was feeling like I was going the other direction. Wanted to mix things up. No doubt the best running shape I have ever been in. My bike? FTP higher. Swim? Faster. Nothing lost there.

I'm doing 18 weeks and have 3 weeks left. Probably closer to 60 vs 50, but with delta being super easy. Seven runs over 6 days a week. Strategic bike and swim mixed in too.

Interesting stuff for sure.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [3Aims] [ In reply to ]
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Wow, thanks for brining this thread back. Very good read.
Also really entertaining conversation between H20 and GR.

I must admit with the posts you wrote your a brave man dragging this back to the front page. LOL
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [3Aims] [ In reply to ]
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well it wasn't really meant for people in my age group, just all the others ;-)

Congrats. Glad you gave it a try and you're seeing results.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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That's not even that much
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