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Slowman etc al, Fit help please!!
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Hello all,
I've read all the fit articles here and attempting to do a FIST setup on myself. I'm wondering if I could get some input on my current fit. Here are the specs:

64 inch Height (me, not the bike)
Size 51 (700c) Cervelo P3 Aluminum
140mm cranks
ISM PN 1.1 saddle
Felt Bayonet 3 Aluminum Aerobar
3T ski bend extensions
10mm pedestal spacer
90mm 0 rise stem (i.e. -13 degree)
580mm Pad stack
520mm Pad reach
13.5 cm Pad drop
72cm seat height (measured from bb to 4cm behind nose)


Here is the current fit (more on the saga and how I got here below):



Hip angle not shown, but comes out to 105 degrees, so not exceptionally low, but in the range.

Here is where I was starting from, with a really low stack Easton carbon integrated bar and 165 mm cranks.



I was really cramped at the top of the pedal stroke and the Aerobar had almost no adjustment available. So... I changed everything. All at the same time. New 140mm cranks, new Felt Aerobar, new saddle, longer stem. I know it wasn't a great idea to change every contact point at once, but here we are.



This was my first attempt at getting the fit right:



Felt pretty good, but measuring the angles said that I was a little too low (140 degree knee angle) and a little cramped in the reach (179 degree shoulder angle).

Tried moving elbows forward:


Then tried moving butt backwards:

Decided to move seat up and back and after a little tweaking, came up with the position at the top.

Here is the video of the current position:
http://tinypic.com/r/ezjx36/9

Here are some of my questions:

1) I understand the idea behind the FIST protocol, but don't see anything about optimum seat angle, so I really don't know how far forward or back I should be sitting?

2) Knee angle seems ok, and I've always ridden with toes pointing down a bit, but maybe something needs to change?

3) I understand the idea behind pelvic rotation, but don't know how to recognize it, or what fit changes would help.

4) Feel free to coach me on shrugging and head position. Below is a final photo where I tried a lot than normal head position, but where I could still see ahead of me.
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Re: Slowman etc al, Fit help please!! [KWTri] [ In reply to ]
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And what data do you have that says 140mm cranks give you the best results? I am 6'5" and going through data driven testing now. I have tons of data on 200's. Just tried 175's this morning. But without real data, no way am I just using a crank length because it feels good, or a fitter tells me it is "right? From feel, I still love my 200's.

And you have a size 51 P3? Again, how in the world are you on something so small? These bikes are made with super short reaches which makes the bikes not real stable for us big guys. Too much weight over the front wheel. And I am riding a 61 P2 and it's
reach is too short even though I am using a 140 stem. And you are only a 90 stem. Man are we working on a fit totally different.

I have yet to have Dan comment on my fit. But with two big guys, this would be interesting to have him made comments on both of us.

And all I get is pay someone to do a bike fit. Wonder why they only say this to me? :)

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: Slowman etc al, Fit help please!! [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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h2ofun wrote:
And you have a size 51 P3? Again, how in the world are you on something so small? These bikes are made with super short reaches which makes the bikes not real stable for us big guys. Too much weight over the front wheel. And I am riding a 61 P2 and it's
reach is too short even though I am using a 140 stem. And you are only a 90 stem. Man are we working on a fit totally different.


Quote:
64 inch Height (me, not the bike)

64" not 6'4" At least that is how I read it and how it looks if that bike is a 51

My YouTubes

Last edited by: LAI: Sep 19, 17 14:47
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Re: Slowman etc al, Fit help please!! [LAI] [ In reply to ]
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LAI wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
And you have a size 51 P3? Again, how in the world are you on something so small? These bikes are made with super short reaches which makes the bikes not real stable for us big guys. Too much weight over the front wheel. And I am riding a 61 P2 and it's
reach is too short even though I am using a 140 stem. And you are only a 90 stem. Man are we working on a fit totally different.


Quote:
64 inch Height (me, not the bike)


64" not 6'4" At least that is how I read it and how it looks if that bike is a 51

Opps

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: Slowman etc al, Fit help please!! [LAI] [ In reply to ]
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LAI wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
And you have a size 51 P3? Again, how in the world are you on something so small? These bikes are made with super short reaches which makes the bikes not real stable for us big guys. Too much weight over the front wheel. And I am riding a 61 P2 and it's
reach is too short even though I am using a 140 stem. And you are only a 90 stem. Man are we working on a fit totally different.


Quote:
64 inch Height (me, not the bike)


64" not 6'4" At least that is how I read it and how it looks if that bike is a 51

Yep, 5'4 makes a lot more sense...

Brent

DFRU - Detta Family Racing Unit...the kids like it and we all get out and after it...gotta keep the fam involved!
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Re: Slowman etc al, Fit help please!! [dfru] [ In reply to ]
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dfru wrote:
LAI wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
And you have a size 51 P3? Again, how in the world are you on something so small? These bikes are made with super short reaches which makes the bikes not real stable for us big guys. Too much weight over the front wheel. And I am riding a 61 P2 and it's
reach is too short even though I am using a 140 stem. And you are only a 90 stem. Man are we working on a fit totally different.


Quote:
64 inch Height (me, not the bike)


64" not 6'4" At least that is how I read it and how it looks if that bike is a 51


Yep, 5'4 makes a lot more sense...

Brent

My question about where is the data for 140mm cranks

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: Slowman etc al, Fit help please!! [dfru] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, 5'4", so on the opposite side of the spectrum from Dave. According to my calculations, me on 140mm would be similar to Dave riding 170-175mm, so not that small.
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Re: Slowman etc al, Fit help please!! [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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No data, at least not the way I think you want. However I could not get into the right position on 165mm cranks as my thighs were hitting my rib cage. I knew I needed to go shorter, so went for something that was enough shorter to make a difference.
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Re: Slowman etc al, Fit help please!! [KWTri] [ In reply to ]
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KWTri wrote:
No data, at least not the way I think you want. However I could not get into the right position on 165mm cranks as my thighs were hitting my rib cage. I knew I needed to go shorter, so went for something that was enough shorter to make a difference.

I understand, which is the way most fitters probably do it.

I will keep posting data as I try to at least try to decide on a crank length based on more than a feeling. :)

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: Slowman etc al, Fit help please!! [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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What data are you referring to? The "data" is the angles. They are immediately noticeable at 12 o'clock and 6 o'clock. And fitters have realized through the science/art of fitting that most are going to be more comfortable and be able to put out better power at those prescribed angles. Yes there may be outliers, but as someone who is constantly admitting that the bike is their weakness, why do you fight so hard to assume you are an outlier when you obviously feel you can improve upon the fit you came to on your own? I'm not pretending to be an expert myself, but it just seems that many are supplying advice that makes sense to me, but you reject it in any and every fit thread because it doesn't fit your idea of what's right.
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Re: Slowman etc al, Fit help please!! [KG6] [ In reply to ]
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KG6 wrote:
What data are you referring to? The "data" is the angles. They are immediately noticeable at 12 o'clock and 6 o'clock. And fitters have realized through the science/art of fitting that most are going to be more comfortable and be able to put out better power at those prescribed angles. Yes there may be outliers, but as someone who is constantly admitting that the bike is their weakness, why do you fight so hard to assume you are an outlier when you obviously feel you can improve upon the fit you came to on your own? I'm not pretending to be an expert myself, but it just seems that many are supplying advice that makes sense to me, but you reject it in any and every fit thread because it doesn't fit your idea of what's right.

That is your opinion, but clearly not mine.

And I did not come up with my fit on my own, it was done by a fitter.

Now with that said, I did make changes and am getting educated. Great, beat on me for not being the expert so many of you seem to be, but I will continue to try and get inputs, and hope these also help others, even though they send me PM's they will never post on ST because of well .....

So far I still believe I am getting great inputs from sources to get a decent bike fit without spending all the money. This may not be the approach others take, but this is me. I also am not willing to pay for a coach, and I think my race results have been okay.

So, what advice am I rejecting other than the only answer is you pay someone?

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: Slowman etc al, Fit help please!! [KG6] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, essentially I was fixing fundamental issues that were keeping me from riding in a very aero position. I don't really care if the power is down a few watts or so. Look at the position I have, and I would love to know if the video shows especially short cranks etc.

Also, it seems Dave has unintentionally derailed the thread. If it's all right, since I started it, could someone comment on the actual fit?

Thanks, I'd appreciate any help offered, even if the cranks are to short etc.
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Re: Slowman etc al, Fit help please!! [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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Dave, I have nothing against you, and wish you nothing but the best, but could you create your own thread to discuss your fit issues. I could really use some help from the people here who know more than me, and it's being overshadowed by your posts. Do you have any advice for me? I'd gladly take it from you. You are a much better triathlete than I am, so feel free to comment on the original topic, but could I respectfully ask you to keep this thread on topic. Thanks, no ill will at all,

Kyle
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Re: Slowman etc al, Fit help please!! [KWTri] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah, sorry to respond to him in your thread, but it was like the 5th fit thread I've read where he argues any advice, even that given to the OP, so I had to respond. I'm new to it and try to gain as much advice from these types of threads to have a more well rounded understanding. Similar to what you've done for yourself . Not enough knowledge to provide any advice of my own (at least not any that would be more beneficial than what you've already done)
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Re: Slowman etc al, Fit help please!! [KWTri] [ In reply to ]
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Last photo looks pretty good to me. It's important to do at least a few of these with an actual helmet on though. You'd be surprised at how dramatically things can change the second a helmet goes on.

My latest book: "Out of the Melting Pot, Into the Fire" is on sale on Amazon and at other online and local booksellers
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Re: Slowman etc al, Fit help please!! [KWTri] [ In reply to ]
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Your last position looks pretty good if you can maintain it for the distance of a race. I think your pelvic rotation looks ok and for me the biggest driver of pelvic rotation is your seat and if you are comfortable to rotate on it or feel like you want to sit more upright. I had to go to a split nose Dash and then with the extra rotation took me a while to find the right balance of fore and aft for the seat to find the most comfortable and natural potion in regard to pedal rotation.

P.S. Who makes 140 cranks?
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Re: Slowman etc al, Fit help please!! [KG6] [ In reply to ]
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Looks dope. I wouldn't change anything. Key is to adapt to it over the next weeks and months. Like jens says, put on a helmet and ride outside. If you can hold that head position consistently you should go pretty fast.
I hope you don't have Gatorskins or a Rudy Project helmet :)
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Re: Slowman etc al, Fit help please!! [Shambolic] [ In reply to ]
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http://www.bikesmithdesign.com/Short_Cranks
http://www.bikesmithdesign.com/Short_Cranks/apex.html[/url]

He uses SRAM Apex cranks that have a solid cranial, then drills them to whatever length you need. Reasonable prices also and good personal service.

Highly recommended if you need them.
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Re: Slowman etc al, Fit help please!! [KWTri] [ In reply to ]
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No I'm good I've tried down to 150 the smallest Rotor make but settled on 160. I was just curious...
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Re: Slowman etc al, Fit help please!! [Shambolic] [ In reply to ]
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I can't get the video to work.
But the piccies look pretty good.
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