When I first started triathlon, I was told ice baths were necessary. I tried them once or twice, but never really got into them. I read they prevented inflammation, but reduced blood flow. I scratched my thick skull and thought, "don't I want blood flow?" Besides, I hate cold water.

Maybe there are additional benefits to an ice bath, but I'm not a fan.

Pretty much my experience as well.

That's not necessarily true. There is a point when ice baths (and cryotherapy for that matter) are counter intuitive, which is before the body's peak response to natural inflammation. This peak occurs at about 1 hour post exercise. After this point, ice and cryo are highly beneficial. They actually increase blood flow to the cold areas which aids recovery. Here's the research to back all of this up:

https://www.foundmyfitness.com/news/s/d5oth5/new_20-page_report_on_cryotherapy_just_released_cold_shock_boosts_norepinephrine_up_to_5-fold_increase_type_of_immune_cell_that_kills_tumor_cells

When I ran track, we used to do ice baths immediately after workouts. Looking back now, that was definitely not the best way to recover.

Also, I'm debating doing my own write up regarding my experiences with cryotherapy. I just finished my hardest week ever doing cryo at -150deg C each day (3min). I had zero muscular fatigue at the end of the week, however, my body was still tired, if that makes sense. I only have anecdotal data like RHR to back up my findings, but it seems to work for me. More research is obviously needed to "prove" its use in endurance sports, but my experiences alone are worth continuing in my opinion.

I've been spending some time at an NBA teams practice facility and they use both ice baths and cryo religiously. This doesn't prove anything, just more anecdotal evidence.

I've also been floating (sensory deprivation tank) a good bit recently and seeing more great results in training. I will definitely continue to experiment with cutting edge recovery techniques.

 I scratched my thick skull and thought, "don't I want blood flow?"

The point--at least as I understood it-- was that your blood was forced to flow even more after icing to warm the body up etc., so by icing you would create more blood flow. But, I (or this theory), could certainly be wrong

Take a listen.

http://www.imtalk.me/...5-emma-mackie-on-ice

Emma is much more research driven while this guy..

http://www.imtalk.me/...isode-553-gary-reinl

Is borderline evangelical as the anti-ice man bit that doesn't make him wrong, just a bit intense.

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I don't listen to podcasts so this may have also been covered, but Emma has just taken up a position with Jamie Turner too. This season she'll be travelling with his squad. We're all very proud of her here at Sweat7 (back door brag.....) :)

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Also worth noting the man who coined the term RICE has now recanted his conclusions.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/RICE_(medicine)

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I can see that, but I thought the arteries/veins constricted and blood flow would slow down. Something I'll have to research. Thanks for pointing that out.

I skipped to Emma's interview, and it was an interesting listen. I wish she had been a bit more specific. Emma didn't talk about any of the positive brain effects from the cold either.

She talks about ice delaying muscle recovery yet decreasing pain. The muscle recovery portion is in direct contrast with what I posted above, although she doesn't talk about when the ice is applied, which matters in relation to the bodies natural response. Tough to know which research is more recent. She didn't cite studies, so I couldn't look them up. The ones I cited show research on elite runners, elite cyclists, and tennis players. Increased output in all cases after using either ice baths or cryotherapy.

I would be interested to read the studies she talks about because up to this point, I've been very thoroughly convinced both through reading and experience that cold, when used appropriately, is good.

Kind of related, have you heard of Wim Hof?

I have not.

I do think it's interesting that these issues of cold therapy are cropping up along with other research on compression and how inflammation is a nesecary part of the adaptive process. It's all sort of the same kettle of fish, you want inflammation post training you don't want to retard or reduce it artificially.

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Take a look at the studies I posted, which apply cold AFTER the bodies natural inflammatory response occurs. Inflammation is good, and the studies I posted say the exact same thing. They are very specific and I think will help.

Wim Hof is pioneering breathing and cold therapy techniques that increase the bodies ability to fight disease and recover. It's wild.

I never got into ice baths... only did it once.

And I've seen this conversation before in regards to muscle repair. My question has always been, "what about the benefits from lowering overall body temperature". Not necessarily from an ice bath that locks up your muscles but more along the lines of sitting in a 7/11 freezer for 5 minutes to cool down. It wouldn't be long enough to mess with your muscles but its long enough to have your overall stress reduced.

There are long Saturdays in the 90-100 degree summer when I finish a 5.5 hour brick and thought that would be optimal. I would be able to calm down quickly, drink a shake and then go about my day. Maybe feel able to jump into recovery boots quicker without overheating.

With all that said, to make it work, you're either best friends with your local convenience store or you're SOL.

This is in line with the research I've seen

Emma on the IM Talk podcast suggests doing this. On the other hand, there are benefits to staying hot for longer, including increased endurance. Here's a link to a bunch of research on why you might not want to cool down immediately:

https://www.foundmyfitness.com/reports/sauna-report.pdf

Full disclosure, I'm not even clicking on the link. I know all about incorporating sauna into your training. I find it best post big swims or shorter workouts. I would NEVER EVER consider doing something like that after working out longer than 2 hours. That would literally be reckless. I could actually make the same argument after anything over 1 hour if it's strenuous. You're too dehydrated (excluding just swimming) to have it do anything beneficial.

Yes, I agree 100%. Sauna after long workouts probably isn't smart.

RICE is a mnemonic for four elements of treatment for soft tissue injuries – an acronym for Rest, Ice, Compression and Elevation.[1][2][3] The mnemonic was introduced by Gabe Mirkin in Sportsmedicine Book (ISBN 978-0316574365) in year 1978. However, he has since recanted his support for the regimen. On March 16, 2014, he wrote "Coaches have used my 'RICE' guideline for decades, but now it appears that both Ice and complete Rest may delay healing, instead of helping. In a recent study, athletes were told to exercise so intensely that they developed severe muscle damage that caused extensive muscle soreness. Although cooling delayed swelling, it did not hasten recovery from this muscle damage."[4]

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I have her thesis, sure she wouldn't mind you reading it. PM me your email and I'll just check with her she's all good with having it passed on.

**Edit, just spoke with Em and she's happy for anybody to read, just drop me a PM if you'd like.

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Have to say that for N=1, ice baths have worked pretty well for me on weekends when I'm doing back to back long runs/rides in warmer weather. My legs are noticeably fresher the next day compared to when I don't use ice. Never experienced any detrimental effects i.e. injury or taking longer to recover overall. I know that's an anecdote not data...

No one disputes you "feel" better, the question when it comes to recovery is are you stunting the adapative process. That seems to be the case as more studies are done on the subject.

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Made it about 3:17 into his interview before I turned it off. Blow. Hard.

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Yep!

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-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
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That's where I think measuring output on subsequent sessions post-ice can be misleading. If my muscles feel better post-ice, I'm likely able to perform better, despite the fact that markers show that my recovery was stunted. The brain is a powerful thing.