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Since 100 runs 100 days is soft
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The challenge: 30 days of sub 20 min 5k (3.11mi). (6:25 pace) .It's short enough that if you screw up can try later in the day.

So far:
Day 1: 19:50
Day 2: 20:15 (3.37 mi 6min/mile)
Day 3: 18:48
Day 4: 19:21

Trying to focus on quality now since last few years 70-100mpw ....but barely has got me progress at 8min mile average
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Re: Since 100 runs 100 days is soft [synthetic] [ In reply to ]
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Let's unpack some stuff here.

1) You, on a great day, may be capable of a sub 3 marathon according to your blog (6:52 pace).
2) You ran medium to medium high mileage for a while but did it on average over a minute slower than you potential marathon pace
3) You're annoyed you didn't get much if any better

And that leads you to the conclusion that high mileage didn't work and that it'd be a good idea to run ~half marathon pace or faster every day for a month?

I'm going to draw some conclusions, feel free to prove me wrong.

1) You're going to get burnt out or injured before the 30 days is up
2) You didn't train properly the last few years (you can't prove me wrong here because no sub 3 marathoner should average 8:00 pace)
3) This *might* lead to some short term improvement but it will quickly peter out for the same reason your last few years didn't go well (not good training)

https://markmcdermott.substack.com
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Re: Since 100 runs 100 days is soft [synthetic] [ In reply to ]
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synthetic wrote:
The challenge: 30 days of sub 20 min 5k (3.11mi). (6:25 pace) .It's short enough that if you screw up can try later in the day.

So far:
Day 1: 19:50
Day 2: 20:15 (3.37 mi 6min/mile)
Day 3: 18:48
Day 4: 19:21

Trying to focus on quality now since last few years 70-100mpw ....but barely has got me progress at 8min mile average

Why do you think this is "quality"? To me, this sounds like a recipe for injury.
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Re: Since 100 runs 100 days is soft [synthetic] [ In reply to ]
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8min/mile is very good for an 'average' run pace. Guys who are running sub3:10 marathons probably don't average any faster than that. Using average training pace is just not a good metric.

Now if your race paces haven't gotten any better at 70mpw compared to 25mpw, then something's off. (Don't worry - this happened to me exactly, ran 5ks-10ks faster at 25mpw of quality than being overtrained at 70+mpw.)
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Re: Since 100 runs 100 days is soft [marklemcd] [ In reply to ]
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marklemcd wrote:
Let's unpack some stuff here.

1) You, on a great day, may be capable of a sub 3 marathon according to your blog (6:52 pace).
2) You ran medium to medium high mileage for a while but did it on average over a minute slower than you potential marathon pace
3) You're annoyed you didn't get much if any better

And that leads you to the conclusion that high mileage didn't work and that it'd be a good idea to run ~half marathon pace or faster every day for a month?

I'm going to draw some conclusions, feel free to prove me wrong.

1) You're going to get burnt out or injured before the 30 days is up
2) You didn't train properly the last few years (you can't prove me wrong here because no sub 3 marathoner should average 8:00 pace)
3) This *might* lead to some short term improvement but it will quickly peter out for the same reason your last few years didn't go well (not good training)


I hit sub 3 , 5 times. But just under. I say 8 min Mile as that's what most my runs for easy runs average out to. I am going to take a break from marathon and focus on 5k & half. If those aren't getting faster no point running same marathon time over and over. I see guys similar to my age holding 7 or better as average pace
Last edited by: synthetic: Dec 21, 17 11:45
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Re: Since 100 runs 100 days is soft [synthetic] [ In reply to ]
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If I were you if you want to go on an intensity oriented program, assuming you have a good base (which you appear to), what I would suggest picking from the list below 4 x per week one of these workouts

  1. 3x1 mile at 6:00-6:15 pace. jog 400m in between
  2. 10x400 90-95 seconds with 20m jogging in between
  3. 8-12x90 seconds treadmill hill intervals 8.5 mph @4-6% grade


Personally think workout number 3 is the best. When I was running in the range you are talking about, I could do workout number 3 every day if I wanted to with zero injury risk.
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Re: Since 100 runs 100 days is soft [synthetic] [ In reply to ]
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How about a sub 5min mile every day for a month?

http://www.letsrun.com/...d.php?thread=3810164
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Re: Since 100 runs 100 days is soft [muohio2004] [ In reply to ]
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muohio2004 wrote:
How about a sub 5min mile every day for a month?

http://www.letsrun.com/...d.php?thread=3810164


Equivalent effort in 5k is ~17:15 or faster. So my time is a bit lax but still requiring some effort (PR 2 years ago 18:24, last week current race 19:02). Goal is sub 18
Last edited by: synthetic: Dec 21, 17 14:07
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Re: Since 100 runs 100 days is soft [synthetic] [ In reply to ]
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synthetic wrote:
marklemcd wrote:
Let's unpack some stuff here.

1) You, on a great day, may be capable of a sub 3 marathon according to your blog (6:52 pace).
2) You ran medium to medium high mileage for a while but did it on average over a minute slower than you potential marathon pace
3) You're annoyed you didn't get much if any better

And that leads you to the conclusion that high mileage didn't work and that it'd be a good idea to run ~half marathon pace or faster every day for a month?

I'm going to draw some conclusions, feel free to prove me wrong.

1) You're going to get burnt out or injured before the 30 days is up
2) You didn't train properly the last few years (you can't prove me wrong here because no sub 3 marathoner should average 8:00 pace)
3) This *might* lead to some short term improvement but it will quickly peter out for the same reason your last few years didn't go well (not good training)


I hit sub 3 , 5 times. But just under. I say 8 min Mile as that's what most my runs for easy runs average out to. I am going to take a break from marathon and focus on 5k & half. If those aren't getting faster no point running same marathon time over and over. I see guys similar to my age holding 7 or better as average pace

Well running a hard 5k every day is not how you do it.

Getting faster in running is not complicated, it just takes discipline to follow the proper script. Especially if you have the capacity to handle 80-90 mile weeks. I'm older than you and am running fast enough right now that I think there might be a PR coming in the next 6 months despite my age, an assault on 6 year old PRs.

https://markmcdermott.substack.com
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Re: Since 100 runs 100 days is soft [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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lightheir wrote:
8min/mile is very good for an 'average' run pace. Guys who are running sub3:10 marathons probably don't average any faster than that. Using average training pace is just not a good metric.

Pretty much this. I'm a 3h marathoner and average pace is 5 mins per km, give or take. The secret to running faster is to run slow in training with tons of volume with key interval workouts sprinkled in and save the 20min heroics for race day. I can't remember the last time I set out for a 20min 5k in training.
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Re: Since 100 runs 100 days is soft [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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lightheir wrote:
8min/mile is very good for an 'average' run pace. Guys who are running sub3:10 marathons probably don't average any faster than that. Using average training pace is just not a good metric.

Now if your race paces haven't gotten any better at 70mpw compared to 25mpw, then something's off. (Don't worry - this happened to me exactly, ran 5ks-10ks faster at 25mpw of quality than being overtrained at 70+mpw.)


yes I am not sure what marklemcd is talking about. My first reaction was that 8 min/mile for a guy right on the cusp of sub-3 marathon is WAY too fast of an average pace. I run about 2:45 marathon and do most of my running at 8 to 8:30/mile, sometimes 9. Similar volume. Still improving.

to OP, you were probably doing most of your running way too fast. And probably too many miles at an aggregate pace that was too fast. What you are attempting now is a stupid attempt at improving that will likely injure you.

Try this:

M: rest
Tu: 10 easy (or 5 and 5 or 7 and 7 etc split into two easy runs)
W: 10 w/ 4-5 tempo all out. Every third week, do 8x800, 4xmile, or another track workout adding up to 4-5 miles of work.
Th: same as Tuesday
F: same as Friday
Sat: 16 progression depending on how you feel. OK to run easy the whole time if you feel tired
Sun: 14 easy (can swap Saturday and Sunday if you feel like you need a full rest day after the progression day)

All easy running at 8:30 to 9 or slower if you feel like it. Tempos around 6:20. Progression on Saturday bringing it down to MP for up to 8 miles if you are having a good day. As you move closer to your marathon, increase distance of weekend long run.
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Re: Since 100 runs 100 days is soft [solitude] [ In reply to ]
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solitude wrote:
lightheir wrote:
8min/mile is very good for an 'average' run pace. Guys who are running sub3:10 marathons probably don't average any faster than that. Using average training pace is just not a good metric.

Now if your race paces haven't gotten any better at 70mpw compared to 25mpw, then something's off. (Don't worry - this happened to me exactly, ran 5ks-10ks faster at 25mpw of quality than being overtrained at 70+mpw.)


yes I am not sure what marklemcd is talking about. My first reaction was that 8 min/mile for a guy right on the cusp of sub-3 marathon is WAY too fast of an average pace. I run about 2:45 marathon and do most of my running at 8 to 8:30/mile, sometimes 9. Similar volume. Still improving.

to OP, you were probably doing most of your running way too fast. And probably too many miles at an aggregate pace that was too fast. What you are attempting now is a stupid attempt at improving that will likely injure you.

Try this:

M: rest
Tu: 10 easy (or 5 and 5 or 7 and 7 etc split into two easy runs)
W: 10 w/ 4-5 tempo all out. Every third week, do 8x800, 4xmile, or another track workout adding up to 4-5 miles of work.
Th: same as Tuesday
F: same as Friday
Sat: 16 progression depending on how you feel. OK to run easy the whole time if you feel tired
Sun: 14 easy (can swap Saturday and Sunday if you feel like you need a full rest day after the progression day)

All easy running at 8:30 to 9 or slower if you feel like it. Tempos around 6:20. Progression on Saturday bringing it down to MP for up to 8 miles if you are having a good day. As you move closer to your marathon, increase distance of weekend long run.

I’ve run with a good coach, and coached others. If your marathon pace is 6:52 and your AVERAGE pace is 8:00+, you’re likely going a bit slow.

Look, his workouts should all be done faster than 6:52. And his long runs should be done faster than 8 pace. His recovery days should not be bringing that to average slower than 8.

When I just broke 3 I was about 7:35-40 on average in a 90 mile week. When I broke 2:40 it was under 7 ON AVERAGE.

https://markmcdermott.substack.com
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Re: Since 100 runs 100 days is soft [solitude] [ In reply to ]
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solitude wrote:
My first reaction was that 8 min/mile for a guy right on the cusp of sub-3 marathon is WAY too fast of an average pace.

Why would you think it's WAY too fast? If someone is able to break 3, an 8 minute mile should feel very easy. If we plug in a 3 hour marathon to Jack Daniels VDOT calculator it sits right in the middle of the recommended easy pace.

Type 1 Mile Pace
Easy 07:44 - 08:13
Marathon 06:52
Threshold 06:25
Interval 05:54
Repetition 05:30

Matt
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Re: Since 100 runs 100 days is soft [marklemcd] [ In reply to ]
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marklemcd wrote:
solitude wrote:
lightheir wrote:
8min/mile is very good for an 'average' run pace. Guys who are running sub3:10 marathons probably don't average any faster than that. Using average training pace is just not a good metric.

Now if your race paces haven't gotten any better at 70mpw compared to 25mpw, then something's off. (Don't worry - this happened to me exactly, ran 5ks-10ks faster at 25mpw of quality than being overtrained at 70+mpw.)



yes I am not sure what marklemcd is talking about. My first reaction was that 8 min/mile for a guy right on the cusp of sub-3 marathon is WAY too fast of an average pace. I run about 2:45 marathon and do most of my running at 8 to 8:30/mile, sometimes 9. Similar volume. Still improving.

to OP, you were probably doing most of your running way too fast. And probably too many miles at an aggregate pace that was too fast. What you are attempting now is a stupid attempt at improving that will likely injure you.

Try this:

M: rest
Tu: 10 easy (or 5 and 5 or 7 and 7 etc split into two easy runs)
W: 10 w/ 4-5 tempo all out. Every third week, do 8x800, 4xmile, or another track workout adding up to 4-5 miles of work.
Th: same as Tuesday
F: same as Friday
Sat: 16 progression depending on how you feel. OK to run easy the whole time if you feel tired
Sun: 14 easy (can swap Saturday and Sunday if you feel like you need a full rest day after the progression day)

All easy running at 8:30 to 9 or slower if you feel like it. Tempos around 6:20. Progression on Saturday bringing it down to MP for up to 8 miles if you are having a good day. As you move closer to your marathon, increase distance of weekend long run.


I’ve run with a good coach, and coached others. If your marathon pace is 6:52 and your AVERAGE pace is 8:00+, you’re likely going a bit slow.

Look, his workouts should all be done faster than 6:52. And his long runs should be done faster than 8 pace. His recovery days should not be bringing that to average slower than 8.

When I just broke 3 I was about 7:35-40 on average in a 90 mile week. When I broke 2:40 it was under 7 ON AVERAGE.

and there is the proof... to be faster, you need to run faster :)

day 5: 18:36
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Re: Since 100 runs 100 days is soft [synthetic] [ In reply to ]
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Let's see how you are running day 20, my guess is you won't break 20.

Terrible Tuesday’s Triathlon
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Re: Since 100 runs 100 days is soft [Pun_Times] [ In reply to ]
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Pun_Times wrote:
solitude wrote:
My first reaction was that 8 min/mile for a guy right on the cusp of sub-3 marathon is WAY too fast of an average pace.


Why would you think it's WAY too fast? If someone is able to break 3, an 8 minute mile should feel very easy. If we plug in a 3 hour marathon to Jack Daniels VDOT calculator it sits right in the middle of the recommended easy pace.

Type 1 Mile Pace
Easy 07:44 - 08:13
Marathon 06:52
Threshold 06:25
Interval 05:54
Repetition 05:30

Exactly. No way should he average 8+ for an entire week. A 70 week marathon prep week for him should be something like:

M: Recovery run 4-6 miles
T: Q1: Say 3 x 2 miles at threshold with 2 minutes rest with a warm up and down, 8-10 miles, going to end up around 7:00 overall
W: Recovery run, 4-8 miles
T: Aerobic run, 8-10 miles. Include strides
F: Q2: 6 miles at marathon pace with a warm up and cool down, 10 miles total
S: Recovery Run 4-6 miles
S: Long run, say 18 miles, should be like 7:45 pace

That would be about 68 miles. And the pace would be well under 8:00 on average

https://markmcdermott.substack.com
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Re: Since 100 runs 100 days is soft [timbasile] [ In reply to ]
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Pretty much this. I'm a 3h marathoner and average pace is 5 mins per km, give or take. The secret to running faster is to run slow in training with tons of volume with key interval workouts sprinkled in and save the 20min heroics for race day. I can't remember the last time I set out for a 20min 5k in training.

------------

I'm calling out the semantics because it bugs the shit out of me every time I read that or hear it from athletes, "but that's slow".......the key isnt to run slow....it's to run easy. You can run "slow" and it not be easy, but you can't run easy and it not be easy. ETA : and yes i agree with your secret, just wanted to add a bit of clarification for that.

eta: I also understand why people say it's "slow" because it's slow, just wanted to clarify that you should be doing it based on easy/hard because you can have days that are "slow" and either because you aren't recovered or whatever it's actually harder than a "slow" run should be.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Dec 22, 17 9:55
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Re: Since 100 runs 100 days is soft [synthetic] [ In reply to ]
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To be fast, you need to run fast. Your 18:xx 5k isn't very fast. Run easy most days without worrying about the pace. Go to the track for some real quality work twice a week, lots and lots of 400, 800, and 1000 repeats. That is how you work on your 5k. There is no actual quality to the work you're doing, if there was you wouldn't be able to do it day after day.
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Re: Since 100 runs 100 days is soft [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
Pretty much this. I'm a 3h marathoner and average pace is 5 mins per km, give or take. The secret to running faster is to run slow in training with tons of volume with key interval workouts sprinkled in and save the 20min heroics for race day. I can't remember the last time I set out for a 20min 5k in training.

------------

I'm calling out the semantics because it bugs the shit out of me every time I read that or hear it from athletes, "but that's slow".......the key isnt to run slow....it's to run easy. You can run "slow" and it not be easy, but you can't run easy and it not be easy. ETA : and yes i agree with your secret, just wanted to add a bit of clarification for that.

The secret to running slow races is to run slow in training. While I think we all agree here that a fast 5k every day is the wrong way to train, running slow is not how you run fast.

You run fast by running fast. But at the right time in the right amounts. Someone running a marathon at 6:52 or faster should not be spending a lot of time running slower than 8:00. At least not during the actual training portion of a periodized schedule.

Recovery days should be as easy as one wants. Every other day should have purpose and slogging along at 8:00 pace for 15 miles has no benefit for a sub 3 marathoner (grade adjusted of course).

https://markmcdermott.substack.com
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Re: Since 100 runs 100 days is soft [imswimmer328] [ In reply to ]
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imswimmer328 wrote:
To be fast, you need to run fast. Your 18:xx 5k isn't very fast. Run easy most days without worrying about the pace. Go to the track for some real quality work twice a week, lots and lots of 400, 800, and 1000 repeats. That is how you work on your 5k. There is no actual quality to the work you're doing, if there was you wouldn't be able to do it day after day.

This is super close. I'm going to bet the OP needs a lot of work on 200s and strides. His running economy would probably jump in a very short time with those and his paces would quicken really quick. But yeah, 400s and 5k paced repeats would do a ton for him.

https://markmcdermott.substack.com
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Re: Since 100 runs 100 days is soft [synthetic] [ In reply to ]
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I think what you are doing is fine, as you said you are not training for a marathon. Although you could be if you got your mileage at this pace up over 45 mpw. As long as you keep on some soft surfaces and do extra stuff to keep from getting injured, I don't see how few miles is going to hurt you, and the speed you gain will be transferable later on.

I say go for it!!!
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Re: Since 100 runs 100 days is soft [marklemcd] [ In reply to ]
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If you are a coach and/or coached by top coaches, I've never in my life heard "average" weekly run metrics as a key element. I've heard race pace/hard efforts being a metric, etc., but using "average pace" as a metric? That may be a by product, but I in fact NEVER look at average pace for workouts. I look at the paces during the set that is suppose to be fast/easy etc. But "average" not worried about "average" pace.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Since 100 runs 100 days is soft [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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Not replying directly to you, just giving my n+1

So in the past I’ve done BARRYp style mileage builds to 40mpw, then 50mpw, then 60+ miles per week (these were 3 consecutive off seasons - only been running 3 years).

The thing I changed this year in addition to more mileage was adding lots of quality (once I got the mileage up). Track on Tuesday (starting with 400s at 5k pace and stretching those out to 1600s over several weeks), tempo on Thursday starting with 3 at MP and stretching that to 8-9 over several weeks, and also taking the long run more seriously (I’m up to 15 miles at MP + 35-40s).

All of this has done wonders for me. Like unbelievable stuff. That 15 miler was at 6:52 pace and my HR was only just above Z2 the whole time.

Another interesting thing to me is what it’s done to my easy/recovery run days. I always just run on feel on these days and don’t care how slow I am. In the past I would see a lot of 9-9:30 miles. Now it seems I’m never slower than 8:30.

Anyway I don’t think avg weekly pace is important, but for me doing a lot of fast running has made my slow running faster too.
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Re: Since 100 runs 100 days is soft [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
If you are a coach and/or coached by top coaches, I've never in my life heard "average" weekly run metrics as a key element. I've heard race pace/hard efforts being a metric, etc., but using "average pace" as a metric? That may be a by product, but I in fact NEVER look at average pace for workouts. I look at the paces during the set that is suppose to be fast/easy etc. But "average" not worried about "average" pace.

It’s not a metric, but if someone says I ran 70 miles and averaged 8 pace and ran a 3 hour marathon I can do some deducing on their structure.

https://markmcdermott.substack.com
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Re: Since 100 runs 100 days is soft [marklemcd] [ In reply to ]
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well I couldn't disagree with you more about how slow the easy runs should be but we will have to agree to disagree. There is certainly some individual variability. Plenty of mid to high 2:20s marathoners that do lots of easy runs around 8 min/mile. You may be an outlier. Probably you have always done your "easy" running too hard. The calculators are biased towards faster "easy" paces IMO.
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