What brake are you using in the rear?

Actually, that is exactly what I said, "wheels probably have as much of an impact on aerodynamics and comfort/feel as the frame"


But I guess I just still don't understand why you would choose the Chinese frame if you are willing to spend a LOT of money elsewhere. You could have gone Ultegra or 105 and made up the cost for a more expensive bike (you could go used since you won't have a warranty either way).


I understand the people that go with a Chinese carbon frame and wheels on a budget, they get the look and a a good bit of performance for very little money. The other guy that responded said he got the used wheels really cheap and the rest of his build was not extravagant. But you are touting the weight of your bike and how awesome your Dura Ace/Red build is with 404/Disc, then you still spent a lot of money, just not on the frame.

Just as a question... don't you ride two aluminum bikes? So now you're the self-proclaimed expert on carbon layups on bikes you've never seen... because your roadie buddies told you 3rd hand information? Gotcha.

I have put about 8,000 miles on a Chinese road bike. I've hit potholes that cracked the guy behind me's wheelset, I've ridden 1,000 miles of dirt (a couple of Roubaix-style races), and many of my local rides include dirt that can be anywhere between rattle your teeth out and smooth. Knock on wood, I've never crashed it, but have flown with it four times and done 1,000 miles on small roads in southern California. I've hit 59 mph on it, and race it 2-3 times every weekend (including two seconds, two thirds, several fourths, and even a win).

I know you're a lost cause, but I also know that you've never ridden a unbranded Chinese frame. If you don't like 'em, fine. Please continue to ride a hand-me-down P2K, but stop talking about how much Chinese carbon assplodes when you've never ridden one, much less seen one explode.

That said, I need to go help out a teammate. Apparently, his Cannondale SuperSix just developed a huge crack on the top tube. Huh. How timely.

Yeah, wasn't clear. Although all my stuff is brand new I probably only paid around 50% of retail at most for it. I got all the SRAM stuff when it was first coming out and on ebay there were some excellent deals e.g. $100 for the Red cassette...you can't even get a used one with a few thousand miles on it for that now. My crankset was cheap cos I guess the longer cranks aren't desirable for most. I did pay top whack for the 7900 front derailleur (I have a red but LBS says it wouldnt fit the frame so they were kind enough to put a 7900 on there and charge full price...how kind of them). Got my integrated Profile carbon bars/stem for less than 50% at about $250 I think it was and so on.

Thing is, before this bike I had written off my previous 2 brand frames from crashes (road bikes, less than a year apart)...neither my fault, a car and a person...plus when I got this I wasn't sure about tris so wasn't willing to spend. Skiing is my number one thing and that is expensive and takes most of my income, especially when I usually ski outside of the US (bigger and better mountains).

Spending $500 or $5000 is a big difference for not much benefit with a frame. $700 or $2000 on wheels isnt so big for more of a benefit.

Although when I did buy my frame the hidden brakes and stems, etc, weren't common place even on the most espensive frames so the differences were smaller. Nowadays the benefits maybe, probably are, greater until the Chinese catch up...I think some have the bb brakes now but haven't seen any with the stem/fork stuff.

BTW, for those interested the roadbikereview forums have a massive thread on all the different Chinese carbon frames. Currently on the 6th thread.

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/...on-6-0-a-272806.html

Haha why so angry?




I'll tell you where I'm coming from: I was considering riding one of these to save me some money, and when I ran it by my LBS's team, they went crazy on me. Something about a disintegrated fork taking out an entire field and ending their captain's season.


There was an awful lot of yelling and I got hit a few times too.


So no, I have no particular knowledge on the subject, nor am I an expert, nor have I ever even ridden one of these. But nor do I claim to be a maven. I just know a guy who really hates them because of personal experience.


...sheesh.

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Eli Curt

I'm Professionally Amateur. Are you? Become an ambassador today!
Chimps in Training!

Because he wants to. Because he's riding his bike. Yay for him! If more people loved their bikes like this guy, the world would be a better place.

You're operating under the assumption that Chinese frames are lower quality. I will concede two points:
1) Chinese carbon is probably not wind-tunnel tested.
2) They are less quality-controlled. I have witnessed this in that the finer points tend to be less perfect - routing isn't perfect, or my rear brake needed some sanding.


But you're posting on a forum where the accepted wisdom is to buy the nicest tri-bike you can and then slap a $100 plastic wheelcover on your training wheel, because it's essentially as fast or faster than a $1,500 rear wheel. Why? Because people don't hate their money. This is exactly the same case - it has yet to be seen that a $9,800 R5Ca will offer you any real advantage over a $600, 300g heavier Chinese R5 copy. In fact, according to most roadies, the Chinese frame would be MORE RACEABLE, because it's going to be overbuilt and stiff as hell, just like all of the Chinese frames.


This is the same argument as "why spend $2,000 on Zipp wheels when you could just train harder?" The answer to that is "why not train harder AND buy the equipment?"


Let me give you some anecdotal evidence: My teammate spent $1,200 on a used Trek Madone 3 series - a carbon frame with Shimano Tiagra / 105 blend. I built a Chinese frame for $1,300 with Dura-Ace 7800 and Nevuations. Which bike is going to be more raceable? Does it make sense to ride $1,500 wheels on either of those bikes? No. Honestly, it doesn't make sense for Jeff to ride any race wheels. The dude's afraid of riding in groups, so he brakes around corners.


One last thing: Why would triathletes even bother with Red or Dura-Ace? We've already talked ad nauseam about how weight doesn't matter in a tri, so every triathlete, from an economic perspective should be riding Force or lower, since Force shifts just well as Red. And let's talk about Ultegra 6700 - there was talk about how the 2010 version of 6700 was engineered after 7900, so it actually shifted BETTER. So from your perspective, we should all be riding P5s and Shiv Tris with 105/Rival?


Quit whining about how people build their bikes, and build your own how you want to.

Nice pic. Kind of obvious why a LBS is gonna go apeshit on you for considering this...they lose a lot to these frames.

BTW, the R5 clone kind of is out 780 grams, T1000 carbon, internal cabling. Model is FM066-SL for around $600. Looks nice. Scroll down the page for pics in the link:

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/...6-0-a-272806-30.html

Angry? I suggest you work on your reading comprehension.

I'm sure your LBS' team loved the idea of you building a Chinese frame, since you essentially said, "Hey, I'm going to buy a bike. But don't worry, I'm going to cut you out of the deal entirely; I'll buy the frame direct from the manufacturer, thereby removing your biggest cash cow, and also probably buy the build kit used. Heck, I'll even source the bars and saddle from somewhere online, since it's cheaper than buying from you." There is a gentleman on RBR's forums who owns a bike shop and has ranted and raved at everyone in the forum about how Chinese builds steal his business.

And then, you've got a guy whose fork broke and hurt one of their teammates! And forks ONLY break on cheap Chinese frames, definitely.

You've admitted twice that you're spouting off second-hand information. I'm telling you that 4-5 people here have put serious mileage on these bikes and their frames haven't snapped in half yet. Honestly, if my fork was going to break in half, it probably would have done it sometime in the past 8,000 miles of hard riding.

I bought mine about a year ago. I have a little over 3000 miles on it with no problems. I built it for about 1200 bucks.

First off, I have a best friend who works in and out of factories in China for a UK company. He was a so-so triathlete and he does understand bikes. He happens to do some work for another USA based bike company as well as several UK bike companies. I can't tell you the names, but you can do the math. He deals strictly with legal documents that increase safety standards within items/articles that have a clear visibility for possible high human accidents. He basically goes in to factories (I like to call them sweat shops.) They inspect everything from janitorial issues to products and the packages they are shipped in. China has been ridiculed by many but they always adjust to new policies. Many people from the UK and USA are saying, “We want to know how it’s made and the conditions in which its made in.” China is far beyond Korea, Malaysia and other UK/USA imports.

Exact words from my buddy’s mouth: "You would be blown away by how many Chickens are Crossing the Road." And I said "why?" His reply, "The market is changing. Advertising is being changed by the consumer and in some cases people within the company learned that less is more. There is a market for non-branded articles all across the world. Consumers still want things but they want more things for less. Do you know why the Chickens are Crossing the Road?" I obviously said, "To get to the other side?" He laughed and said, "No dumb ass, to make more money. No advertising. No pro sports team. No mark up. Not extras…just more money and no one will chase them across the road."

Our conversation ended with black and white; the same area that was once grey for me. The Apple's of the industry strategically place their items in and around release dates of others. People weigh their options. Some go low and some go high. He insisted that cycling manufactures purposely set up new shops across the street. They can weigh marketing accounts against each other. The can see how advertising either adversely effects their corp. or enhances it. He said that 100% of the articles that demand "clear visibility for possible high human accidents" are often heavier and over built in a way that makes them much stronger. He said their highest recalls were things like mops, toys and even hospital plastics. He said things like shoulder pads, chest protectors, bike, helmets, wheels, and other sporting equipment were beyond expectations 100% of the time.

Every one of these companies purchase their resins, carbon fiber, and open molds from the same manufacturer. Every bike is essentially a pop-out. Non-branded bikes usually don't offer different fits within a line. Most molds are copied and allowed to do so because the owner sent someone that was highly qualified employee in their ranks across the street so that he didn't leave and start his own company. In the USA, people are suing-happy and would have your neck for a mock-off SHIV. Not in China. Goal #1 is to be the export king. And so they are...

So like it or not and believe what you want, but we are all on the same ride. I have never heard of anyone riding in a pack and then their rear chain stay seemingly broke off...unless of course you’re on a Madone and your name is Lance Armstrong during the Le Tour De France. While climbing at 13.5 MPH and his handlebar clipped a bag, he fell, not hurt, and broke his Chain-stay IN HALF. Oh, that was a Madone made in the USA. Go figure? (Dont HATE ME, I love Lance and Madones)

Anyways, I have been building these "China-Rides" for my High School Triathlon Team. They are great and easy to build. I have some kids building full on China frames, China wheels and micro-shift for 1K. They are XC runners and swimmers. They are loving it and I can't get them a similar hook-up then the better known "name-brands."

Here is my latest build. We just ordered an 88 china-front-wheel and put some black leather tape up top (orange was from his old build)

Well yeah you have a point.

My problem is I really want one, but the guy who this happened to is currently "training me" (whatever semblance of training you could call it, I don't really lend people much to work with) and he keeps telling me if I want to save money, shell out for a caad9 frame they have lying around in the basement.

He's training me because he wants me to race with the team next year. I can't be riding one of these if I'm on the team I guess...

Especially that one...it's so pretty I really like the R5.

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Eli Curt

I'm Professionally Amateur. Are you? Become an ambassador today!
Chimps in Training!

Good suggestion, that's what I'm in school for.

How's your buddy feeling?

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Eli Curt

I'm Professionally Amateur. Are you? Become an ambassador today!
Chimps in Training!

A CAAD is about the best decision you can make, especially considering that it won't end a friendship. They're about the same price as building a Chinese carbon from the ground up, they're very, very nice frames, and since you're a triathlete-turned-bike-racer, it'll stand up to crit crashes (no offense, but I come from the same lineage).


Upset. The shop is deciding whether or not they'll warranty it.

Yeah, this 'R5' is nice and probably my next build as I want to get into crit racing (and road) and I am definitely not spending much on a frame for that stuff in which I know I have a good chance of going through a few.

You have a problem in your situation as you definitely cant go the Chinese way without pissing him off.

I guess I'll just continue quoting his story then!

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Eli Curt

I'm Professionally Amateur. Are you? Become an ambassador today!
Chimps in Training!

I really do like that frame. I've compared it with the venge and there are some pretty obvious differences around the head tube / top tube area and I believe that the seat clamp is entirely different. So, from a far it does resemble the venge, but there are some easy-to-spot differences. I'm also not keen on mislabeling this as a specialized, regardless of how close it looks.

If I'm not mistaken, did you buy this during one of the group buys on velobuild? Did that go well (I guess what I'm saying is was it worth it to join a group buy)? I've signed up for the 3rd group buy and we'll see how that unfolds.

Thanks, we're in agreement. I took delivery of this last winter, it was one of the first out of the molds. I haven't seen many built up at this point, but with the group buys they should be popping up. At least it will be easy to spot clones when people try and sell fakes on ebay. I've had it next to a Venge, they are quite different.

Have anyone noticed any difference from the china wheels compared to a cheaper "branded" wheel like planet x's? Or are they basically the same thing?

I'm not questioning the purchase of Chinese Carbon, and ultimately it comes down to me not having ridden one of these yet. I've been a roadie for a long time, so I've been through the era of dead carbon and noodly frames. I have hesitation with anything carbon and ultimately, I probably would choose a CAAD frame over a china carbon bike. That's just personal preference.

However, I think you missed the point of my statement, and in your case when you are trying to penny pinch to get a race worthy bike for $1300 it makes sense. I originally thought one of the bikes had brand new Zipp wheels and I asked why the person decided on that build. I didn't say, "you moron! why!" I just wanted to know.

A TRP rear. Forget the exact model. Tried the tektro and went with the TRP as it is a much more effective brake on this bike. I could get the tektro to work well, but it was very fiddly. The TRP bolted on a worked well right off the bat.

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NCCP certified Comp coach

Hey where did you pick up that frame

I have HED wheels. The only thing I have ever ridden in races. I know tons of people riding china-wheels. I must be honest: the entire build is not quite as nice, but they look cool. I have kids that bumped 1-2 mph in tri's and TT's, but they are kids and they get faster just from getting older.

I want to get a pair of 88's for my road bike, but even being cheap, they still cost money. Money I am now spending on a newborn instead. Someday I will try out a pair and see if I can make my own little review.

I would be willing to bet that if I am fitted correctly, the frame and wheels don't mean shit. I would be willing to bet that I could ride Sora just as fast Dura-ace. I will also bet that an aero helmet and proper clothing is a better upgrade then anything else on the bike, yet 90% of people look at it last!

I'm not entire sure where he exactly got it from, but it's the WS01 TT frame.

Here's a place that I've seen it.

http://www.gotobike.com.cn/...06&previd=500027

Awesome

After spending quite a bit of time today searching for the Oval Concepts A700, Tektro R725 and TRP t925, all of which are the recommended rear brakes for these bikes with the rear brake by the bottom bracket. I have not been able to find any of these except for a few on ebay for around $200. Does anyone know of any places to source a rear brake that will not obstruct the chainring?