You can't train as effectively in the pool without flip-turns. Yes, you should do them.

When you live in a rural area, miles from a decent indoor pool, and your only close training pool is your 36 ft backyard pool, I'd have to answer yes.

I guess the next question is - what is it about doing flip turns that make your swim training more effective?

I call bullshit on flip turns. Kalidis - I'm with you, no-one has ever convinced me they help do anything other than the appearance that you "fit in" with the "swimmers". I said it a year ago in another thread...the only reason anyone does flip turns is because the length/shape of our pools require it for any race longer than 25/50m. Imagine a track of only a 100m straight. Can you see the milers running 100m, hitting a wall, doing a flip, then running the other way? They don't have to because tracks are an oval or running races are on straight roads. If all swimming distances could be done on a straight course or a loop, nobody would be doing flip turns nor defending how they somehow "help you train better". Show me a distance runner doing flips on a track, and I'll start doing flip turns in a pool.

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I am trying to keep an open mind, but I just don't see how they will improve the swim leg of any open water triathlon that I do. Now, if I were doing a triathlon and the swim were held in a pool, then you better believe I'd learn to do flip turns. Until then, I'll stick with open turns.

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Mike Sparks


I have competed well, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.

So tell us... how fast of a swimmer are you?

I don't do flip turns partially because I suck at them. So instead, I do touch turns but I try to time them so that my breathing pattern isn't interrupted--I end up keeping my head under the water for much of the touch turn.

I'm with you. Can't see the reason for flip turns. Far as I can tell all they do is let the other people in the pool know you had swim lessons when you were a kid. Maybe I'm just jealous, but when I see someone flip turn at the gym pool I say "Hollywood" and smile.

Gary Mc

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Gary Mc
Did I mention I did Kona

When I see triathletes not flip turning I say "ignorant" and smile. :-)

But you still haven't offered any reason why one can't train as effectively without flip turns.

Please share your wisdom.

Gary Mc

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Gary Mc
Did I mention I did Kona

What do you do in the alternative? Do you grab the wall and push off in the opposite direction?

My 2 cents: this actually allows you to briefly rest at the end of each length. Sure, it may be short, but, it is a little break. In open water, there are no opportunities to grab anything or take any breaks. So, IMHO, doing flip turns is better for your endurance training.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

Even if you are keeping your head down during an open turn (which is incredibly awkward)...you're still getting more of a rest at the wall than you would during a well-executed flip turn.

it's really not that hard to learn....

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__________________
JP

my twitter feed

1. Lets you keep up with a faster lane during swim practice
2. Easy way to sneak some bonus ab work into a workout without doing anything else
3. It's good to feel comfortable when you're uspide down in the water and disoriented while being forced to hold your breath. Because you will get disoriented in rough water situations when the surf gives you a tug.
4. Easier on the back and shoulders than open turns are.
5. Because even if you think you're quick on your open turns, you're still getting rest on them you wouldn't get doing flip turns. An extra second per 25 or 50 adds up to a huge amount of 'stealth rest' when you're doing 250s or 300s. Turns force you into more continuous swimming.

Because fast people do it. Google the details.

If you want to continue to suck at swimming (which most people do), then don't flip turn.

This is awesome! Now that I know its been my turns holding me back, my problems are solved. Kona here I come.

Gary Mc

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Gary Mc
Did I mention I did Kona

Yeah... didn't you read Dan's Kona flip-turn survey? Not single Kona qualifier who doesn't flip turn in the pool.

Seems that people who want to do something well, learn the skills necessary to do well. Amazing!

• Any skill you can acquire that makes you more agile and fluid in the water can't be bad.
• It gives the feeling of more continuous swimming as opposed to the stop and go of touching the wall and picking your head up out of the water.
• Allows you to learn good body control and feel for the water.

do you want to continue to swim like a triathlete, or do you want to swim like a swimmer? if the latter is your goal, then do the turns. if you want to get better, then do the turns. if you want to be happy swimming 1:30+/100 for a 500 for the rest of your life, then swim like a triathlete.

on our team in college there were a few times we did visualization exercises with the head sports psych guy at school. part of the visualization process was inhaling and exhaling slowly and deeply. he was always amazed how huge our lungs were. he said he never worked with another sports team which could inhale and exhale so deeply. former swimmers tend to have huge aerobic engines. part of that is because we have to learn to swim aerobically with limited access to oxygen in order to still maintain efficient stroke mechanics. flip turns could be included in "efficient stroke mechanics". not only do good swimmers not breath during the turn (its not possible), but good swimmers also don't breath on the stroke before the turn or the first stroke breaking out of the water. before i became a triathlete i never though about "how difficult" flip turns are. many triathletes cite "running out of breath" as one of the main reasons they stay away from flip turns. in my opinion, that is the primary reason you should do them. i can flip, turn, push off the wall, and take 2 or 3 strokes without breathing without even having to take a deep breath before starting the process. do you want lungs like that? do you think they might help you a little bit in triathlon?

i think the lung capacity development is a huge part of the reason so many swimmers tend to perform well in triathlon. obviously you have to have more than just big lungs though, or else we might start to see a huge influx of opera singers into multi-sport...i digress...

turns will certainly make you faster in the pool. that means you will either be able to start leading your current lane, or it will help you in moving up a lane to be able to swim with the faster folks. some "open turn people" claim they are simply handicapping themselves, so they get the same benefit. This is not true. A good swimmer can swim a set of 5x500 at both a faster speed and higher intensity (ie % of threshold speed) than a slower swimmer. As you move to the faster lanes you will begin swimming with people who are not merely focused on "getting through a workout", rather they are focused on swimming at a very high intensity level. i would equate this to riding on a group ride with riders who are stronger than you are. perhaps you get dropped the first time. the next time, you might make it a little farther. next you make the ride without getting dropped. afterwards you are taking huge pulls for the group and driving the train. you are the one bringing the intensity. now you get to look for an even faster ride. swimming is the same. moving up a lane is like moving from the C ride to the B ride to the A ride to finally being able to shell everyone else on the A ride.

flip turns are much better for your shoulders. open turns are really bad for your shoulders. you have a much higher chance of developing shoulder tendinitis (aka impingement syndrome) if you are doing open turns.

suck it up and do them. learn to deal with the lack of oxygen, as you will become accustomed to it and become more fit in the process.

Tell me, do you think fire was a good idea? Some people will debate anything.

Sarcasm aside, there are good reasons for spending the time to learn flip turns. Fla Jill has listed the biggest advantages. (By the way, what is wrong with looking like the "cool" swimmers? ;-)

Other analogous concepts: do you wear cycling shoes? Everybody says stiff soles are better, but where is the scientific study to support it? How about cycling clothes? How about running shoes? Certainly combat boots will do the trick and help prevent ankle sprains.

My name is Bassman and I approve this message.

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fka: bassman

After the swim, I'm a fish outta water.

I don't do flip turns cause they make me dizzy. Two instructors have tried to help and have not found flaws in my general execution yet i get so nauseous that i have to quit swimming and lie down. Thus no flip turns.

Hi,

I must say that I am very passionate about my swimming. Raised on it,pursued it competitively for 12 years before my first tri.

I am a Tri- athlete, and by that, I aspire to proficiency and SKILL in all 3 sports, Minimum.

That said, despite my middle of the (competent and fast) pack 9 and 10 hour IM finishing times (all 26 of them at this point), I am always out to exit the water in the top 15 AG overall in any international IM (or 70.3) I compete in.

So yes, be a real swimmer, swim like a real swimmer, swim with real swimmers. You cannot do the challenging send-offs when you lose 4 body lengths to me on EVERY turn. If you cannot do the send-offs you will not make the necessary progress. Work to nail your flip turns. Then work to lengthen your push-offs. first exiting past the flags, working 2, then 3 then 4 then 5 dolphin kicks before breakout. (Yes and Michael Phelps does 7-8, so there).

I only swim about 15 of every 25m lap, I make the hard send-offs. I never swim open water more than 1x/ week. I never exit slower than 54 (or 27 at 70.3). It is a matter of pride and skill.

Raising your swimming game to match that of your other 2 sports is an important skill that has effects and relevance beyond T1, be fast and there is no drafting to bitch about on the bike. Choose to be slow and skill-less and doom yourself to be back there again with all the 1:05 (or 32 @ 70.3) or slower swimmers, forever caught up in a draft fest on the bike, bitching about how everyone is a cheat.

Aspire to exit the water in sub 55 (or 27 @ 70.3), see how little drafting there is at the sharp end of the bike pack when you are up there.

Flip turns: yes

Now go and sign up fora good swim clinic: Whether its with Karlyn Pipes-Nielsen or Steve Tarpinian (sp?) or the local US Swimming coach, now is the time to raise your game. It could be the most effective $200-500 you spend this season.

Time for bed, Masters is at 5:15 and that comes early.

Tom Price