Are you day drinking?

Unscientific answer:
1. For cages to be effective, they have to be so tight that they are more dangerous that clipless pedals.
2. Surely there is an aero penalty
3. You lose a good deal of energy pushing against a foam sole vs a carbon sole
4. Getting running shoes secured into cages will take nearly as long as transitioning shoes, anyway.

Off the top of my head :-)

Why do you ask? Just curious? Or trying to decide whether to bite the bullet on some real tri stuff, and hoping to rationalize keeping what you already have?

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Didn't one of the cycling mags or websites test this theory in the last year. I think they saw zero power loss when using flat pedals (not even cages).

Stiffness is one of the reasons we use cycling shoes. Maybe it wouldn't matter much in a sprint but I would not want to ride 56 or 112 miles using my running shoes.

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well, when you push straight down, your foot still moves in the circle. Clipless pedals translate that linear motion to a circular one more efficiently than running shoes. They allow more consistent positioning of the ball of your foot over the pedal spindle (or wherever you happen to like it, but wherever that is). You are training motor patterns when you train as well as metabolic processes, so the consistency helps to develop those more.

At least, that's my theory. I'm probably wrong.

I find riding in cycling shoes to be a lot more comfortable too.

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I am pretty horrible at transitions. I don't practice them in any way. I can't get out of a wetsuit quickly to save my life.

However my bike to run transition was always under a minute. I use clipless peddles.

Get elastic laces on your running shoes, that's really all you need to make the change quickly.

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

Because keeping my foot in the right place on a pedal is something I don't need to be thinking about on the bike?

Once clipped in my foot position relative to the pedal spindle is something that I don't have to concern my self with for the rest of the ride, and that does affect the ability to put power to the pedal regardless of your stroke dynamics.

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"...the street finds its own uses for things"

I remember there was a product on the market about 20+ years ago that addressed this issue (can't remember if Kenny Souza used it).

Here's a modern day version by Pyro Platforms.

don't think it was Kenny, (he may have, but I don't recall him using it), but I do remember that it was used by at least a couple of top duathletes. In a RBR, it will save you time on 2 transitions.

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I once raced a duathlon (that I had raced many times before) using toe clips, mainly because the temperature was well below freezing and I didn't want to be taking off my gloves to change shoes. Now the colder temps may have played a part too, but my 12 mile bike split was almost 2 miutes slower that year. Obviously there are many variables, including fitness, but that was a big eough difference that I won't be wearing trainers on the bike ever again.

Notably though, many pros use toe clips in draft- legal duathlons, but obviously in that situationn it's imperative to get into the lead bike group, and then drafting reduces the need for a higher power output.

Thompson Power Platform or something like that?

In short triathlon's there isn't much difference between tri shoes on the bike and swap to running shoes in T1. The longest bit is putting the running shoes on which you have to do anyway you only cut out the tiny bit of time putting feet in cycling shoes and taking feet out. I can see more sense in a duathlon because you can leave one set of shoes on throughout and do them up with proper laces not elastic ones.

Iain

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I do agree with you, this is just for fun, someone else might think it was interesting. I had a friend who I raced several times on the same course (300M swim, 10 mile bike, 3 mile run). We were really close, the race always going the same way: I would take a lead on the swim, he would catch me half way on the bike, we would ride together and then have a 3 mile foot race to determine the winner. One year he using the platform system and the race went the way it always did, he caught me on the bike and we rode to T2 together. We were racked right next to each other but of course he just flew off his bike and beat me out of T2 by more than 10 seconds. I was baffled by what happened because I didn't notice the platforms/running shoes on the bike. He ended up beating me that day and the strategy was a big part of the reason...

My god. I now have a response to most questions asked during the day!

I would like to see a study on this...after 31 years of competing in triathlon I think it is good to question old assumptions with facts.

woof wrote:

If you believe that a rider gets best efficiency by putting their effort into the downward push of the pedal stroke, then why are you still using clip-less pedals? Shouldn't you use cages or clips so that you can pedal with your running shoes and go directly from the bike to the run, skipping the transition of finding your running shoes and changing into them from your bicycle shoes (saving time in transition)?

A quick look at google scholar pulled this up.

http://www.radlabor.de/fileadmin/PDF/PowerForce/Mornieux___Stapelfeldt_Artikel_Feedback_Pedalkraefte_2008.pdf


No difference in VO2 when pedaling at 60% of max aerobic power between flat pedals and elite cyclists' normal cycling shoes with appropriate pedals. Though to be fair it was only 8 subjects.

For my short duathlon events I use clips and straps. Not even tightened up. Its not like I'm needing the security of a track sprinter - I'm spinning the pedals. The cages are purely to locate the feet properly.

I don't believe I'm losing much power this way - but I'm saving seconds in transitions.

Would I use them for long events ? No. The security of being locked into the pedal wins there.

I tried this. Put your bike on the trainer and ride either with the same power or the same HR while swapping out the pedals. Clipless puts out 10 to 20 more watts at the same HR. Over the course of any significant bike ride, going with cages is going to cost you way too much. But try it for yourself to see. Will depend on how much you naturally pull up on your pedal stroke.

But I have done flat pedals for a sprint off-road tri on a mountain bike. I think that was a wash.

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I would have thought you would have had a much faster T1 than your mate though? Unless of course you were putting bike shoes on in T1 then running through transition in them. I think if you don't do a flying mount with the shoes on the bike then running shoes and flat pedals would be faster, but then you could just learn to do a flying mount!

Iain

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Post of the day, week and probably the month.

Cages have been banned from youth races and you are not supposed to have straps anymore for adult races according to Triathlon Canada.


My kid rides flat downhill mtb pedals and will continue to do so until he is 11 or so.

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Sure but when you are in a race with someone (as opposed to an individual time trial) 10 seconds in T2 is worth more than 10 in T1.

I cant use Newton running shoes on the spinbikes in the gym, they are bloody horrid! no support at all and getting my feet out of the cages are a nightmare

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http://www.thetrinerd.com

But non draft triathlon is an individual time trial after the swim?

Iain

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If it's the same ones I'm thinking of, we carried them at the Performance store I worked at in the mid/late 90's. I don't recall us ever actually selling a set.