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Re: Should I get a coach [h2ofun]
[ In reply to ]
Re: Should I get a coach [coachjustin]
[ In reply to ]
coachjustin wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
JasoninHalifax wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
JasoninHalifax wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
Sanuk wrote:
I think people go to a coach too early. There is a lot you can accomplish by simply running, biking and swimming consistently. Once you feel you can't progress anymore, then you can get a coach.Most folks I know are looking for an easy out. When I ask them about consistency, frequency, duration, I generally get a blank stare. I pretty much see a direct link between how much folks train, and this is all year long, compared to results. (Assuming they have the right parents to start with). A coach I guess for many is just like they parents bugging them to clean their rooms.
Really not helpful. Seriously.
IMO, most coaches for most athletes is just a money grab, plan and simple. They prey on folks fears. Nothing wrong with that, just not getting my money. I do pretty well with my hobby on my own, and get my "coaching" inputs from ST. :)
Still not helpful. You've been doing this a long time, and you treat the sport as a hobby. So what works for you (and me, TBH) is that we don't get a lot out of a formal coach / athlete relationship.
When I was a lot younger, I had several coaches, probably 10-12 different coaches over the course of my swimming career, which lasted 8 years (age 14-22). Now, as a masters swimmer I have 3 coaches*, but it is much less intensive than in the past. In fact, no-one swims at a serious level without a coach. Not Michael Phelps, not a lowly age-grouper. Everyone has a coach, and it isn't necessarily to do with motivation. There is substantial knowledge that a good coach has that you would never get on your own, no matter how many books you read or forums you frequent. So I learned a lot about the sport, and training in general, from those coaches.
Someone new to the sport doesn't have those years of experience, so they can take years to accumulate it, and maybe never get it. Or, they can use a coach's services to help them learn. Its not about "most coaches" for "most athletes". It is about whether this particular athlete could benefit from good coaching.
* it's not really a true coaching relationship, but they do give me some technical feedback and write the masters workouts.
There are lots of ways to get "coaching" for free.
Join a tri club. Read stuff on the internet from place like ST.
I love to talk to new folks and give them idea. I just laugh at a lot of the stuff I hear they have a "coach" give them.
I just strongly feel most coaches for most people is a total waste of money. But, they are lots on things in life I feel is a waste of money. And probably a lot
of things I spend money on that most think is a waste.
Person asks a question, and they have the right to hear inputs from all sides. Some believe coaches are great, but for what, to be MOP at best?
For 99.9% of athletes, this sport IS a hobby. I have yet to talk to anyone in my 20 years of racing that puts food on the table, or a roof over their head
from racing triathlons.
If someone wants to spend the money, great, go for it. I will probably consider paying for a bike fit, even though IMO, I would be shocked if it really does anything for my bike times, I just do not have the engine, and I have no issues with that.
So it's safe to assume that you're never going to be coached, but let me speak to the others on the thread about my perception of what it is that I do. Simply put, we take all of the noise and all of the clutter that is the magazines, blogs, advice from the pros, advice from Joe Triathlete, ST Forums, etc. and put it in a concise format that is individualized to the specific athlete and is easy to understand and execute.
Sure you can learn Physics at a PhD level from reading textbooks, journals, or going to theflatearthsociety.org (yes it's a real thing...), but studying under the tutelage of someone who can guide you on what is valuable and what is noise saves both time and energy.
Great, nothing wrong with that, but for me, I do not need to pay you for stuff I get for free.
And I will continue to say, I want to see athletes results. The day all these coached athletes kick my butt, is the day I will reconsider. So far, that is not even close to happening.
He asked should, and I think it is a waste of money for most. But if folks have the money, go for it. We all make money to spend on something.
Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net
Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist
Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
Re: Should I get a coach [Sanuk]
[ In reply to ]
Sanuk wrote:
I think people go to a coach too early. There is a lot you can accomplish by simply running, biking and swimming consistently. Once you feel you can't progress anymore, then you can get a coach.I agree with this with a caveat. You have to enjoy figuring stuff out yourself and seeking that knowledge. AKA slowtwitch addiction.
For someone who's not on this forum or constantly looking to learn and try things out, a coach would definitely be the better option.
But for me, I definitely fit into the quote above. I just keep swimming/biking/running and getting faster. I'm sure I'll plateau at some point but it hasn't happened yet and I've had a good bit of success so far. When the time comes, I won't hesitate to get a coach and see if he/she makes a difference in my results.
Re: Should I get a coach [h2ofun]
[ In reply to ]
h2ofun wrote:
Great, nothing wrong with that, but for me, I do not need to pay you for stuff I get for free.
And I will continue to say, I want to see athletes results. The day all these coached athletes kick my butt, is the day I will reconsider. So far, that is not even close to happening.
He asked should, and I think it is a waste of money for most. But if folks have the money, go for it. We all make money to spend on something.
Re: Should I get a coach [Sean H]
[ In reply to ]
I think people go to a coach too early. There is a lot you can accomplish by simply running, biking and swimming consistently. Once you feel you can't progress anymore, then you can get a coach.
I agree with this with a caveat. You have to enjoy figuring stuff out yourself and seeking that knowledge. AKA slowtwitch addiction.
For someone who's not on this forum or constantly looking to learn and try things out, a coach would definitely be the better option.
Yes, my assumption is that someone looking to improve will do their own legwork and try on their own. I think if you need a coach to get you motivated you're likely not going to keep it up. Most of the gains will come by getting yourself out the door day after day and then, a coach can help with setting up a program.
In some activities (golf, playing a music instrument like the violin) getting early pointers is very important so you don't develop bad habits. However, you can quickly read here on ST some very good programs on running (BarryP plan) or some ideal bike or swim workouts. I wouldn't need a coach to get me to run 6 days a week at a normal pace for a minimum of 30 minutes every week of the year. If you then incorporate a good consistent bike routine you can do a lot of prep before a coach. Join a Masters club for swimming and you have the base for a good amount of training.
I agree with this with a caveat. You have to enjoy figuring stuff out yourself and seeking that knowledge. AKA slowtwitch addiction.
For someone who's not on this forum or constantly looking to learn and try things out, a coach would definitely be the better option.
Yes, my assumption is that someone looking to improve will do their own legwork and try on their own. I think if you need a coach to get you motivated you're likely not going to keep it up. Most of the gains will come by getting yourself out the door day after day and then, a coach can help with setting up a program.
In some activities (golf, playing a music instrument like the violin) getting early pointers is very important so you don't develop bad habits. However, you can quickly read here on ST some very good programs on running (BarryP plan) or some ideal bike or swim workouts. I wouldn't need a coach to get me to run 6 days a week at a normal pace for a minimum of 30 minutes every week of the year. If you then incorporate a good consistent bike routine you can do a lot of prep before a coach. Join a Masters club for swimming and you have the base for a good amount of training.
Re: Should I get a coach [brosemail]
[ In reply to ]
I enjoy training when I have a coach more than when I don't. I just execute work out and don't have to second guess things.
If you decide to look for a coach, there is one thing I would suggest you look at. Some coaches are plan writers which means they write your plan and you execute it. They don't have a system to check how your training went or if you did your training. Other coaches write your plan then check how your workouts went via some method like training peaks or the like, from your training, they may alter your plan at times due to your workouts but will take into account how you did into your next plan block.
I've had both plan writer type coaches and true coaches that check my training and use that to help coach me. The second way I felt was true coaching and I didn't find it until after I had been coached by plan writers for 5 years.
Lots of great coaches that are reasonable. Local coaches limit your options. Interview a few before you choose as not all coaches are equal. One coach I interviewed gave all her athletes the same plan.
If you decide to look for a coach, there is one thing I would suggest you look at. Some coaches are plan writers which means they write your plan and you execute it. They don't have a system to check how your training went or if you did your training. Other coaches write your plan then check how your workouts went via some method like training peaks or the like, from your training, they may alter your plan at times due to your workouts but will take into account how you did into your next plan block.
I've had both plan writer type coaches and true coaches that check my training and use that to help coach me. The second way I felt was true coaching and I didn't find it until after I had been coached by plan writers for 5 years.
Lots of great coaches that are reasonable. Local coaches limit your options. Interview a few before you choose as not all coaches are equal. One coach I interviewed gave all her athletes the same plan.
Re: Should I get a coach [brosemail]
[ In reply to ]
I started with books. Not everyone (including me) is willing or able to understand fully what is in the books or if the books are any good. So yes a coach right from the beginning why not.
In my case I got some coaches but that did not turn out to be a good idea. The swim coach was a very good swimmer but without an clue for Adult Onset swimmers. In the end I stopped with that coach and found out myself what I did wrong.
Then came the big bike frustration. The coach I hired for that did not notice what I did wrong so I stagnated further. In the end I also got rid of this coach and found out what I did wrong myself.
Understand me good: this does not mean I would never advise to get a coach. And even the coaches I had would maybe have been good in other circumstances for other people.
One thing to consider with coaches is too that they want to make money. That is basically their only goal. So how to write bills? With time! Again: only with time you can write bills because you multiply the time with an hourly wage. By just telling you what you should change (sometimes there is an obvious thing to change, quicqly said) they do not spend time. You would just get faster, say thank you and he can not write a bill.
So what do coaches want to do? Stand at the side of the pool and tell you "Session of 4 times 100 metres now". In between the sessions they say something about a high elbow and during the time you swim they have time to do something else. Same with biking. The Power Meter is a gift from heaven for coaches, because they can analyze for ages and put the results of these analysis on paper and discuss it with you, spending time so be able to write the bill. There is it again, it is all about spending time. No one will pay a coach for a great idea which is conveyed in 20 seconds.
Same with running. I had a coach with whom I went running and we did execises ( in German it is called Lauf ABC, I do not know how that is called in english). We had a great time, I had fun and I continued with these execises. I stopped with them now, because I eventually asked myself about the benefit. Well, the benefit was for him that he spent TIME with me such that he could write a BILL.
But again, I can imagine that coaches can be useful. Triathlon is a complicated sport and not everyone feels like or is able to getting into the training theory of it.
In my case I got some coaches but that did not turn out to be a good idea. The swim coach was a very good swimmer but without an clue for Adult Onset swimmers. In the end I stopped with that coach and found out myself what I did wrong.
Then came the big bike frustration. The coach I hired for that did not notice what I did wrong so I stagnated further. In the end I also got rid of this coach and found out what I did wrong myself.
Understand me good: this does not mean I would never advise to get a coach. And even the coaches I had would maybe have been good in other circumstances for other people.
One thing to consider with coaches is too that they want to make money. That is basically their only goal. So how to write bills? With time! Again: only with time you can write bills because you multiply the time with an hourly wage. By just telling you what you should change (sometimes there is an obvious thing to change, quicqly said) they do not spend time. You would just get faster, say thank you and he can not write a bill.
So what do coaches want to do? Stand at the side of the pool and tell you "Session of 4 times 100 metres now". In between the sessions they say something about a high elbow and during the time you swim they have time to do something else. Same with biking. The Power Meter is a gift from heaven for coaches, because they can analyze for ages and put the results of these analysis on paper and discuss it with you, spending time so be able to write the bill. There is it again, it is all about spending time. No one will pay a coach for a great idea which is conveyed in 20 seconds.
Same with running. I had a coach with whom I went running and we did execises ( in German it is called Lauf ABC, I do not know how that is called in english). We had a great time, I had fun and I continued with these execises. I stopped with them now, because I eventually asked myself about the benefit. Well, the benefit was for him that he spent TIME with me such that he could write a BILL.
But again, I can imagine that coaches can be useful. Triathlon is a complicated sport and not everyone feels like or is able to getting into the training theory of it.
Last edited by:
longtrousers: Sep 13, 17 0:59
Re: Should I get a coach [longtrousers]
[ In reply to ]
longtrousers wrote:
I started with books. Not everyone (including me) is willing or able to understand fully what is in the books or if the books are any good. So yes a coach right from the beginning why not. In my case I got some coaches but that did not turn out to be a good idea. The swim coach was a very good swimmer but without an clue for Adult Onset swimmers. In the end I stopped with that coach and found out myself what I did wrong.
Then came the big bike frustration. The coach I hired for that did not notice what I did wrong so I stagnated further. In the end I also got rid of this coach and found out what I did wrong myself.
Understand me good: this does not mean I would never advise to get a coach. And even the coaches I had would maybe have been good in other circumstances for other people.
One thing to consider with coaches is too that they want to make money. That is basically their only goal. So how to write bills? With time! Again: only with time you can write bills because you multiply the time with an hourly wage. By just telling you what you should change (sometimes there is an obvious thing to change, quicqly said) they do not spend time. You would just get faster, say thank you and he can not write a bill.
So what do coaches want to do? Stand at the side of the pool and tell you "Session of 4 times 100 metres now". In between the sessions they say something about a high elbow and during the time you swim they have time to do something else. Same with biking. The Power Meter is a gift from heaven for coaches, because they can analyze for ages and put the results of these analysis on paper and discuss it with you, spending time so be able to write the bill. There is it again, it is all about spending time. No one will pay a coach for a great idea which is conveyed in 20 seconds.
Same with running. I had a coach with whom I went running and we did execises ( in German it is called Lauf ABC, I do not know how that is called in english). We had a great time, I had fun and I continued with these execises. I stopped with them now, because I eventually asked myself about the benefit. Well, the benefit was for him that he spent TIME with me such that he could write a BILL.
But again, I can imagine that coaches can be useful. Triathlon is a complicated sport and not everyone feels like or is able to getting into the training theory of it.
Outstanding hits the nail on the head
Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net
Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist
Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
Re: Should I get a coach [h2ofun]
[ In reply to ]
h2ofun wrote:
longtrousers wrote:
I started with books. Not everyone (including me) is willing or able to understand fully what is in the books or if the books are any good. So yes a coach right from the beginning why not. In my case I got some coaches but that did not turn out to be a good idea. The swim coach was a very good swimmer but without an clue for Adult Onset swimmers. In the end I stopped with that coach and found out myself what I did wrong.
Then came the big bike frustration. The coach I hired for that did not notice what I did wrong so I stagnated further. In the end I also got rid of this coach and found out what I did wrong myself.
Understand me good: this does not mean I would never advise to get a coach. And even the coaches I had would maybe have been good in other circumstances for other people.
One thing to consider with coaches is too that they want to make money. That is basically their only goal. So how to write bills? With time! Again: only with time you can write bills because you multiply the time with an hourly wage. By just telling you what you should change (sometimes there is an obvious thing to change, quicqly said) they do not spend time. You would just get faster, say thank you and he can not write a bill.
So what do coaches want to do? Stand at the side of the pool and tell you "Session of 4 times 100 metres now". In between the sessions they say something about a high elbow and during the time you swim they have time to do something else. Same with biking. The Power Meter is a gift from heaven for coaches, because they can analyze for ages and put the results of these analysis on paper and discuss it with you, spending time so be able to write the bill. There is it again, it is all about spending time. No one will pay a coach for a great idea which is conveyed in 20 seconds.
Same with running. I had a coach with whom I went running and we did execises ( in German it is called Lauf ABC, I do not know how that is called in english). We had a great time, I had fun and I continued with these execises. I stopped with them now, because I eventually asked myself about the benefit. Well, the benefit was for him that he spent TIME with me such that he could write a BILL.
But again, I can imagine that coaches can be useful. Triathlon is a complicated sport and not everyone feels like or is able to getting into the training theory of it.
Outstanding hits the nail on the head
the coach thing does sound like a push in the right direction, I do feel there is a whole basket full of items I could have tweeted, my half is in 6 weeks so I will just keep pumping out what im doing now, Lake Placid is around 10 months away so this is when I would seek out a coach (possibly) but maybe I should look into some software so I can analyze my own work. possibly purchase a garmin (not really sure what this does).
Re: Should I get a coach [Quantum]
[ In reply to ]
Quantum wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
Great, nothing wrong with that, but for me, I do not need to pay you for stuff I get for free.
And I will continue to say, I want to see athletes results. The day all these coached athletes kick my butt, is the day I will reconsider. So far, that is not even close to happening.
He asked should, and I think it is a waste of money for most. But if folks have the money, go for it. We all make money to spend on something.
Have you ever raced in a race with a pro field? Pretty confident most of them have coaches and that they all kicked your butt. And before you point out the inanity of comparing your results to that of a pro, it's no less inane than the only-slightly-less-than arbitrary test you impose to determine whether you get your own coach. I'd say correlation doesn't equal causation, but I'm pretty you'd ignore it and it turn it into yet another straw man.
I'll say it for Dave. I think your comparison is inane. Of course, we've raced in fields with pros. But a professional is in the sport to make money ... it's the very purpose of being a professional. By contrast, Dave and I are mere age groupers for whom spending on a coach doesn't bring a single extra dollar into the household but most assuredly guarantees ~hundreds of dollars going out every month and probably $thousands going out over time. That doesn't mean a coach isn't worthwhile for many age groupers as long as they recognize and answer the following questions:
1) How much am I willing to invest in my hobby for the potential of better performance and maybe a plastic trinket for making the podium?
2) Am I able to even identify who the best coaches are or am I likely to select a dud since the tri-space is littered with them?
3) How much will a coach cost for a year? Would it be more meaningful to invest that money in a memorable overseas destination race?
4) How much is it worth if a coach can take me from BOP to MOP; or MOP to FOP?
5) Do I need a top-flight performance oriented coach or do I need a 'rah-rah' coach? There are a lot of people who need the 'rah-rah', 'you can do it' motivation or else they won't get out the door. Dave isn't one of them.
6) What are the opportunity costs of spending on coaching; i.e., you could save more, buy something special for your spouse, etc.?
I do invest a lot into this hobby, but I'm not willing to spend on one-on-one coaching for what seems like the equivalent of a monthly car payment in some cases. If others do, more power to them whether they produce results or not.
Re: Should I get a coach [Kevin in MD]
[ In reply to ]
Kevin in MD wrote:
Personally, assuming everything else is similar - I'd probably favor a coach who is experienced training people *from* flat hot south Texas for races *in* cooler hilly Lake Placid. Your locality maybe makes it impossible to do long rides in the afternoon at anything approaching high intensity for example. A local coach will be slightly more accustomed to dealing with that sort of thing. And if that local coach has been around a while, they have already worked with people getting ready for Lake Placid.
A coach in western North Carolina or Idaho might have lots of experience helping people get ready for hilly races but not be accustomed to dealing with the day in and day out of South Texas heat and terrain.
On the whole, I'd consider it a relatively small issue though. If you find a coach you trust and are comfortable with - I'd say that's the main thing.
That is a good point. After doing the self training thing for the first few years, I got a coach this year to help me reach certain race goals. The first one that I hired lived someplace flat and simply would not give me workouts that were specific to the mountainous A race that I had earlier this year, even after I requested them to address weaknesses that I know I have. I ended up replacing him with someone who is more familiar with where I will be racing and is giving me workouts to address that.
Re: Should I get a coach [HuffNPuff]
[ In reply to ]
HuffNPuff wrote:
Quantum wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
Great, nothing wrong with that, but for me, I do not need to pay you for stuff I get for free.
And I will continue to say, I want to see athletes results. The day all these coached athletes kick my butt, is the day I will reconsider. So far, that is not even close to happening.
He asked should, and I think it is a waste of money for most. But if folks have the money, go for it. We all make money to spend on something.
Have you ever raced in a race with a pro field? Pretty confident most of them have coaches and that they all kicked your butt. And before you point out the inanity of comparing your results to that of a pro, it's no less inane than the only-slightly-less-than arbitrary test you impose to determine whether you get your own coach. I'd say correlation doesn't equal causation, but I'm pretty you'd ignore it and it turn it into yet another straw man.
I'll say it for Dave. I think your comparison is inane. Of course, we've raced in fields with pros. But a professional is in the sport to make money ... it's the very purpose of being a professional. By contrast, Dave and I are mere age groupers for whom spending on a coach doesn't bring a single extra dollar into the household but most assuredly guarantees ~hundreds of dollars going out every month and probably $thousands going out over time. That doesn't mean a coach isn't worthwhile for many age groupers as long as they recognize and answer the following questions:
1) How much am I willing to invest in my hobby for the potential of better performance and maybe a plastic trinket for making the podium?
2) Am I able to even identify who the best coaches are or am I likely to select a dud since the tri-space is littered with them?
3) How much will a coach cost for a year? Would it be more meaningful to invest that money in a memorable overseas destination race?
4) How much is it worth if a coach can take me from BOP to MOP; or MOP to FOP?
5) Do I need a top-flight performance oriented coach or do I need a 'rah-rah' coach? There are a lot of people who need the 'rah-rah', 'you can do it' motivation or else they won't get out the door. Dave isn't one of them.
6) What are the opportunity costs of spending on coaching; i.e., you could save more, buy something special for your spouse, etc.?
I do invest a lot into this hobby, but I'm not willing to spend on one-on-one coaching for what seems like the equivalent of a monthly car payment in some cases. If others do, more power to them whether they produce results or not.
Could not have said it better.
Instead of a coach going to buy the wife and I new Samsung Note 8's Friday. :)
Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net
Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist
Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
Re: Should I get a coach [HuffNPuff]
[ In reply to ]
HuffNPuff wrote:
Quantum wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
...And I will continue to say, I want to see athletes results. The day all these coached athletes kick my butt, is the day I will reconsider. So far, that is not even close to happening. ...
Have you ever raced in a race with a pro field? Pretty confident most of them have coaches and that they all kicked your butt. And before you point out the inanity of comparing your results to that of a pro, it's no less inane than the only-slightly-less-than arbitrary test you impose to determine whether you get your own coach. I'd say correlation doesn't equal causation, but I'm pretty you'd ignore it and it turn it into yet another straw man.
I'll say it for Dave. I think your comparison is inane. Of course, we've raced in fields with pros. But a professional is in the sport to make money ... it's the very purpose of being a professional...
Please say that you also agree that Dave's claim, that since he is beating athletes with coaches suggests that people don't need a coach, is also totally idiotic. No one has ever said that you must have a coach to be good in sport, Dave just likes to make straw men so he can be a victim and rant from his soapbox. Your point about pros earning money has no bearing on whether or not coaches help them.
You posted some very relevant questions to ask when considering a coach. Dave posts the same tired BS opinion and then rants about others only seeing it one way. He offers massively biased and over-generalized comments that usually provide no benefit to the question of the thread.
Re: Should I get a coach [Jctriguy]
[ In reply to ]
Jctriguy wrote:
HuffNPuff wrote:
Quantum wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
...And I will continue to say, I want to see athletes results. The day all these coached athletes kick my butt, is the day I will reconsider. So far, that is not even close to happening. ...
Have you ever raced in a race with a pro field? Pretty confident most of them have coaches and that they all kicked your butt. And before you point out the inanity of comparing your results to that of a pro, it's no less inane than the only-slightly-less-than arbitrary test you impose to determine whether you get your own coach. I'd say correlation doesn't equal causation, but I'm pretty you'd ignore it and it turn it into yet another straw man.
I'll say it for Dave. I think your comparison is inane. Of course, we've raced in fields with pros. But a professional is in the sport to make money ... it's the very purpose of being a professional...
Please say that you also agree that Dave's claim, that since he is beating athletes with coaches suggests that people don't need a coach, is also totally idiotic. No one has ever said that you must have a coach to be good in sport, Dave just likes to make straw men so he can be a victim and rant from his soapbox. Your point about pros earning money has no bearing on whether or not coaches help them.
You posted some very relevant questions to ask when considering a coach. Dave posts the same tired BS opinion and then rants about others only seeing it one way. He offers massively biased and over-generalized comments that usually provide no benefit to the question of the thread.
Dave's personal results are not relevant to whether or not a coach is a good buy or not for an age grouper. Like I noted, it may be worth it to someone to move up to MOP, or for someone who is not retired like Dave to save them the TIME (time is money!) to filter through all the information that is out there. However, if you read all of Dave's post on this thread, he provided a number of reasons beyond going back to the "my results" straw man (e.g., consistency).
As to pros, you are correct, a coach may or may not help them. However, given that a lot of top pros are paying big money, including a percentage of prize money, for coaching, they certainly expect that it will help them. And the fact that coaches may fail to help a pro should give us mere age groupers even more pause as to whether we should part with the money. Frankly, if I was really wading in the dough, there are a number of coaches I would like to try for a year but I'm too damn cheap to spend $300+ a month for top level guidance; and if I went from 90% to 95% of my AG, at the end of the day I would still have to say, so the F what! :)
Re: Should I get a coach [N+1]
[ In reply to ]
N+1 wrote:
As for a flat lander training for a race with elevation, it can be done. Just be ready for some good old-fashioned intensity workouts."Hills" can be found, but you have to be creative
When I lived in FL, I used bridges & parking garages
"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin
Re: Should I get a coach [HuffNPuff]
[ In reply to ]
HuffNPuff wrote:
Jctriguy wrote:
HuffNPuff wrote:
Quantum wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
...And I will continue to say, I want to see athletes results. The day all these coached athletes kick my butt, is the day I will reconsider. So far, that is not even close to happening. ...
Have you ever raced in a race with a pro field? Pretty confident most of them have coaches and that they all kicked your butt. And before you point out the inanity of comparing your results to that of a pro, it's no less inane than the only-slightly-less-than arbitrary test you impose to determine whether you get your own coach. I'd say correlation doesn't equal causation, but I'm pretty you'd ignore it and it turn it into yet another straw man.
I'll say it for Dave. I think your comparison is inane. Of course, we've raced in fields with pros. But a professional is in the sport to make money ... it's the very purpose of being a professional...
Please say that you also agree that Dave's claim, that since he is beating athletes with coaches suggests that people don't need a coach, is also totally idiotic. No one has ever said that you must have a coach to be good in sport, Dave just likes to make straw men so he can be a victim and rant from his soapbox. Your point about pros earning money has no bearing on whether or not coaches help them.
You posted some very relevant questions to ask when considering a coach. Dave posts the same tired BS opinion and then rants about others only seeing it one way. He offers massively biased and over-generalized comments that usually provide no benefit to the question of the thread.
Dave's personal results are not relevant to whether or not a coach is a good buy or not for an age grouper. Like I noted, it may be worth it to someone to move up to MOP, or for someone who is not retired like Dave to save them the TIME (time is money!) to filter through all the information that is out there. However, if you read all of Dave's post on this thread, he provided a number of reasons beyond going back to the "my results" straw man (e.g., consistency).
As to pros, you are correct, a coach may or may not help them. However, given that a lot of top pros are paying big money, including a percentage of prize money, for coaching, they certainly expect that it will help them. And the fact that coaches may fail to help a pro should give us mere age groupers even more pause as to whether we should part with the money. Frankly, if I was really wading in the dough, there are a number of coaches I would like to try for a year but I'm too damn cheap to spend $300+ a month for top level guidance; and if I went from 90% to 95% of my AG, at the end of the day I would still have to say, so the F what! :)
Yep. If it is worth spending hundreds per month to go from BOP to MOP, let alone FOP, great, I have no issue since we all spend our money on things we want.
BUT, to say the ONLY way to get better is paying a coach is total BS. As I said, if one needs their mommy to yell at them to clean their room, great. But for some of us, we can clean our room on our own. Consistency, Frequency, Duration. If one just follows those 3 words, 12 months a year, with as much training as they want for their hobby and still have a life, they will reach 90% of their potential and it will not cost them a penny.
Even if someone could promise and prove that if I hired a coach and would go from 5th USAT rankings in Tri to 4th, would it be worth the money? :)
The right parents always trumps everything else!!
Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net
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Re: Should I get a coach [h2ofun]
[ In reply to ]
There are definitely some that need to be told to clean their room and pay for the privilege. There are also a group of athletes that fit this profile:
- They are very social and want to meet weekly or more often with other athletes under the same coach.
- They tend to do mostly local races.
- They need and want encouragement. Aka, ___ "Your performance rocked! If you would increase your cycling from 1x week to 2x you will kill it!!"
These are the people who need a "rah-rah" coach. That coach may be very knowledgeable, but what is attracting their clientele is the supportive atmosphere and constant encouragement that their athletes NEED. In my community, I'm aware of quite a few coaches, and some of the better ones will never attract the same number of athletes as the "rah-rah" coach.
My own thought is that the more independent you are, the less you will benefit from a coach, although there is no doubt in my mind that the best coaches will bring out the best in their athletes. But in the end, it's all just a game for age groupers.
- They are very social and want to meet weekly or more often with other athletes under the same coach.
- They tend to do mostly local races.
- They need and want encouragement. Aka, ___ "Your performance rocked! If you would increase your cycling from 1x week to 2x you will kill it!!"
These are the people who need a "rah-rah" coach. That coach may be very knowledgeable, but what is attracting their clientele is the supportive atmosphere and constant encouragement that their athletes NEED. In my community, I'm aware of quite a few coaches, and some of the better ones will never attract the same number of athletes as the "rah-rah" coach.
My own thought is that the more independent you are, the less you will benefit from a coach, although there is no doubt in my mind that the best coaches will bring out the best in their athletes. But in the end, it's all just a game for age groupers.
Re: Should I get a coach [h2ofun]
[ In reply to ]
I think where Dave's argument Falls flat on its face is that he assumes good form in all three disciplines.
Yeah, if you got great form, you will improve to nearly your full potential by simply doing more, doing more consistently, or going longer.
If your form sucks, for example and running, all doing more will result in as you getting injured. Certainly not going faster.
I think people often pay coaches to fix minor (or major) things that are wrong with their form that can provide major results.
Yeah, if you got great form, you will improve to nearly your full potential by simply doing more, doing more consistently, or going longer.
If your form sucks, for example and running, all doing more will result in as you getting injured. Certainly not going faster.
I think people often pay coaches to fix minor (or major) things that are wrong with their form that can provide major results.
Last edited by:
davejustdave: Sep 13, 17 18:24
Re: Should I get a coach [HuffNPuff]
[ In reply to ]
HuffNPuff wrote:
There are definitely some that need to be told to clean their room and pay for the privilege. There are also a group of athletes that fit this profile: - They are very social and want to meet weekly or more often with other athletes under the same coach.
- They tend to do mostly local races.
- They need and want encouragement. Aka, ___ "Your performance rocked! If you would increase your cycling from 1x week to 2x you will kill it!!"
These are the people who need a "rah-rah" coach. That coach may be very knowledgeable, but what is attracting their clientele is the supportive atmosphere and constant encouragement that their athletes NEED. In my community, I'm aware of quite a few coaches, and some of the better ones will never attract the same number of athletes as the "rah-rah" coach.
My own thought is that the more independent you are, the less you will benefit from a coach, although there is no doubt in my mind that the best coaches will bring out the best in their athletes. But in the end, it's all just a game for age groupers.
Yep
Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net
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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
Re: Should I get a coach [davejustdave]
[ In reply to ]
davejustdave wrote:
I think we're Dave's argument Falls flat on its face is that he assumes good form in all three disciplines. Yeah, if you got great form, you will improve to nearly your full potential by simply doing more, doing more consistently, or going longer.
If your form sucks, for example and running, all doing more will result in as you getting injured. Certainly not going faster.
I think people often pay coaches to fix minor (or major) things that are wrong with their form that can provide major results.
If this were the case, I agree with you. I know plenty of folks who have coaches who have gotten hurt because of what they tell them to do.
When I hear some of the stuff, I just smile and say to myself, yep, this is why I do not have a coach.
But again, if spending this money makes one "happy", I sure see nothing wrong with it. But to think it will make anyone get on the podium just because they get a coach, is, well, ..
Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net
Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist
Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
Re: Should I get a coach [h2ofun]
[ In reply to ]
Who has ever said that you must have a coach to be good at triathlon?? That is what is total BS. You make up a non existent argument and then beat on it endlessly in every coaching thread.
You have an uneducated, pointless and frankly, derogatory view about coaches and the people who hire them. Your other refrain about people having a coach because they don't have the internal motivation that you clearly have (or unhealthy obsession, depending on your viewpoint) is extremely negative. Elite athletes have ample motivation and they have coaches to help guide them. The same is true of age groupers.
You might surprise yourself if you trained and raced with a more educated approach. But, that would get in the way if your narrative of maxing out your limited genetic potential. Or it would get in the way if saying you killed it in a long course race with no LC training (3hrs a day, every day is great LC training).
You have an uneducated, pointless and frankly, derogatory view about coaches and the people who hire them. Your other refrain about people having a coach because they don't have the internal motivation that you clearly have (or unhealthy obsession, depending on your viewpoint) is extremely negative. Elite athletes have ample motivation and they have coaches to help guide them. The same is true of age groupers.
You might surprise yourself if you trained and raced with a more educated approach. But, that would get in the way if your narrative of maxing out your limited genetic potential. Or it would get in the way if saying you killed it in a long course race with no LC training (3hrs a day, every day is great LC training).
Re: Should I get a coach [brosemail]
[ In reply to ]
Another thing to consider ... what's your relationship status?
A single person seeking an in-person coach, might end up with one of the opposite sex, and then ... things could get "complicated"
But then, any arrangement like coaching [either online, or in-person one-on-one], with its implied trust, intimacy and vulnerability may lead to something down the road no matter what the relationship status of the two people involved [not likely, and certainly not the norm, but it could happen]
"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin
A single person seeking an in-person coach, might end up with one of the opposite sex, and then ... things could get "complicated"
But then, any arrangement like coaching [either online, or in-person one-on-one], with its implied trust, intimacy and vulnerability may lead to something down the road no matter what the relationship status of the two people involved [not likely, and certainly not the norm, but it could happen]
"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin
RandMart wrote:
Another thing to consider ... what's your relationship status? A single person seeking an in-person coach, might end up with one of the opposite sex, and then ... things could get "complicated"
But then, any arrangement like coaching [either online, or in-person one-on-one], with its implied trust, intimacy and vulnerability may lead to something down the road no matter what the relationship status of the two people involved [not likely, and certainly not the norm, but it could happen]
Possibly. I did hire a personal trainer a few years ago to help improve my functional strength after an injury and I specifically chose an attractive young lady -- young enough to have been my daughter. But I did that because I know I will work harder to do whatever she would tell me to do than if it had been a guy. Things did NOT get complicated and I did improve.