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Should I be training in areo
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I almost never train in areo if i do it is on the easy stuff. I seem to hold areo fine in races, but i do loose a lot of power in my aero position. My general feeling has been ftp test not in areo so training in zone four and three is too hard to do in aero.Basically assuming that aero will always be lower that not areo and so as my ftp increases my tt power will increase with it.
My ftp is 310 but most my races in tt i am only holding 240 average and normalized on a flat course. So the question is, do i raise up the aero bars a bit, or do i train in tt at a lower ftp, or do i just continue as is? side note although my power in races is down this year in the new lower tt position my times on 2 of the 3 courses was faster.

I dont know how to do the picture thing but there is a link here to my fit picture

Last edited by: Cookiebuilder: Jul 13, 17 18:53
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Re: should i be training in areo [Cookiebuilder] [ In reply to ]
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If you're comfortable in aero in races you don't need to do anything unless yo want to change your fit. But I would train in aero. That ftp isn't a good gauge since you can't hold that power in aero which means it doesn't really correlate to your race ftp which is what I would be concerned about.

Your power will always be lower in aero but you will be going much faster. So train in aero and sacrifice those watts since it's not how you're racing anyway.

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Re: should i be training in areo [Cookiebuilder] [ In reply to ]
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I use TrainerRoad for my workouts and they recommend training in aero as much as you feel comfortable doing so. I'm not sure why you wouldn't anyway since you race in that position. You need to train your body to maintain power while aero and the only way to do that is practise + time in the saddle. TR suggests sitting upright after big intervals or to flush out the legs, but it also suggests going back to aero for the cool-downs.

Regarding your FTP test in general you'll never reach the FTP of your road position while aero although some can do it with lots of practice. So I would redo the test in the aerobars and use that as a benchmark.
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Re: should i be training in areo [Cookiebuilder] [ In reply to ]
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The 70 watt loss between aero and regular positions is YUGE. Way too huge in fact. There is no way your fit is any good. I would consider a 10-15 watt loss the absolute maximum.

As to raising the bars, you should look at someone like Rohan Dennis. His torso isn't even flat. If a low position is ruining your output, then come up a bit and focus on "narrow is arrow". Once you TT FTP is 300 you can focus lowering it a bit and seeing if you can adapt to the revised position.
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Re: should i be training in areo [Cookiebuilder] [ In reply to ]
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YES!

Edit: Maybe if you have more power you should race your next race NOT in the aero position. Then compare that time to last years. Who knows, you might be faster... but then again you might not.
Last edited by: jpay: Jul 11, 17 19:33
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Re: should i be training in areo [jpay] [ In reply to ]
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Yes what!
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Re: should i be training in areo [RonanIRL] [ In reply to ]
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Actually TRoad says ftp tests should be maximal and in any position that allows for higher ftp. Eventually though u need to learn to translate that power to the aero position.
I asked this question recently and the thing I got out of it was probably a bit of both. You want as much power as you can but you will need specificity eventually.
To the OP why not do half your intervals up on bars for example and half in aero etc- work your way into doing workouts in aero at that higher power number over time.
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Re: should i be training in areo [coates_hbk] [ In reply to ]
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Maybe that is the key, spend as much time as I can in area at those tougher intervals, problem is today was 10 min over under so 2 minutes at 283 watts then 2 min at 330 repeated for ten minutes. I made it for 3.5 minutes in areo then I had to give up to postion and sat up. And then the other two sets I was hurting bad enough sitting up that are was out of the question.
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Re: should i be training in areo [Cookiebuilder] [ In reply to ]
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thats ok, next week try for 4 minutes...work up to it slowly....over a 6 week block of the same set, try and get as much as you can in aero.
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Re: should i be training in areo [coates_hbk] [ In reply to ]
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I think that your FTP is not what you think it is.
I am betting that you have only done short tests and that you have a lot of power above FTP that influences your result.
If you do some more testing I will bet that your true FTP is only 260w or less and that you simply haven't done a time trial sitting up to discover this.

I have tested many people that claim their FTP is over 300w but when tested properly they are very far below.

Remember a 20min FTP test is an estimation of your FTP from your 20min power by using an average of many athletes power profiles.
If you are not that average then it is far off.

So first establish properly what your power is in both sitting up and aero position and then knowing the differences go about working out your best power/aero balance.
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Re: should i be training in areo [lyrrad] [ In reply to ]
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Proper Preperation Prevents Piss Poor Performance.

Train in aero. I find fast way to bridge the watt gap between drops and aero is to do max effort 15-30s sprints. My best guess is that such sprints gives muscular adaptations in correct muscle lengths.

Lyrrad: How the hell can yo believe that someone drops from 330w over a 20 min time to 260 OR LOWER for a ~60 min effort?? How do you test FTP if you often see 300+ riders test "very far below 300"?
Do you by any chance test 4mmol blood lactate? Then you dont test FTP but power at 4 mmol. Performance tests should not be that irregular that you describe, there is some unaccounted error in your calculations (or some crazy miscalculations by the riders themselves, but how can one fool oneself that badly? You train by FTP so it shouldnt be easy to set it more than 10+w wrong)

Endurance coach
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Re: should i be training in areo [Cookiebuilder] [ In reply to ]
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I do probably 75-80% of my training sitting up on the basebars when on the trainer. The aero position is just not nearly as comfortable indoors as it is outdoors because the bike is rigidly locked into place.

FTP tests are always done sitting up and gripping the basebar for dear life, but I've done a handful of TT races in aero that lasted 16 minutes and were well above FTP test power (FTP x 1.05).

Every single ride outdoors is 98% in aero with the exception of some road crossings, turns, grabbing bottles, etc.

I think your difference in power between up and down is bigger than it should be. Might be worth looking into your fit.
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Re: should i be training in areo [TriowaCPA] [ In reply to ]
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My ftp is the twenty min tr. I am sure it's right. I do 50 min at 85-90 percent once a week and stay in hr zone 3 not in areo. Last year with my old tt position that was more upright I held 285 at a race 1 hour. Since then my indoor ftp has increased. I am going to try the short high intnsity intervals added to each ride. And then just really try and stay in areo more indoors. That may be some of my problem, I have always been a indoor trainer guy. I have been fit twice this year the trick is I believe I am in a faster position... but yah maybe I should mess around with fit more.
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Re: should i be training in areo [Cookiebuilder] [ In reply to ]
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On the trainer, Trainerroad, I hold aero for as long as I can then I sit up when I can't hold the interval, so I can hold the interval. I would rather gain power in my legs and better fitness in my body (that will translate to more power and better fitness in aero) then struggle through lower power in aero. On the road outside I hold aero my whole ride unless climbing, doing hard intervals or crossing roads, even if that means 4 hours. The reason I think training aero is good is so your shoulders get use to it, your neck gets use to it, you get some flexibility in your back and you understand what your bike/run power is, since it will be different than your all out sitting up FTP. Also, bike handling, drinking and eating in aero, etc.

That being said, I have read a lot of articles where competitive triathletes don't ever train in aero.
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Re: should i be training in areo [Cookiebuilder] [ In reply to ]
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I haven't been on my TT bike since a race Apr. 2nd. I don't see the point until you are getting closer to racing, say start of build ~16w from A race (Nov for me - so I'll be getting back on it shortly).

You do need to prepare for the race by spending time in the aero position for 2 reasons IMO.

1. Train your arm/back/neck muscles to be comfortable for the distance. For this I will usually try and do some long and easy TT rides.
2. Figure out your race power target. For this I will do a tempo TT ride weekly from 1-2 hrs (this is training for 70.3s), followed by a run. This will have you much better prepared for the race than targeting xx% of your "FTP."

Strava I Instagram
Last edited by: Sean H: Jul 12, 17 6:11
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Re: should i be training in areo [mortysct] [ In reply to ]
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mortysct wrote:
Proper Preperation Prevents Piss Poor Performance.

Train in aero. I find fast way to bridge the watt gap between drops and aero is to do max effort 15-30s sprints. My best guess is that such sprints gives muscular adaptations in correct muscle lengths.

Lyrrad: How the hell can yo believe that someone drops from 330w over a 20 min time to 260 OR LOWER for a ~60 min effort?? How do you test FTP if you often see 300+ riders test "very far below 300"?
Do you by any chance test 4mmol blood lactate? Then you dont test FTP but power at 4 mmol. Performance tests should not be that irregular that you describe, there is some unaccounted error in your calculations (or some crazy miscalculations by the riders themselves, but how can one fool oneself that badly? You train by FTP so it shouldnt be easy to set it more than 10+w wrong)

Nope, don't test 4mmol.
But I do regularly ride with a couple of very high output guys that put out around 1900w sprinting.
These guys test FTP using 20min tests and all get results saying 330 to 350 watts FTP.
Those powers are way above what they can hold.
They are biased towards the short term end of the spectrum and 20min FTP models simply do not work with any accuracy with them.

If you are coaching triathletes then you may find success with 20min tests, but many road cyclists simply show up the testing regimen for the poor estimate it is on anything but average.
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Re: should i be training in areo [lyrrad] [ In reply to ]
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1900 watt sprints?!!! doesn't cav only do 1500?

I can crack a ton, just, and when I do, the champagne flows even if im last
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Re: should i be training in areo [lyrrad] [ In reply to ]
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So, these guys do 345-365 for a 20 min effort, 1900 for a 5s-something effort and yet cant even maintain 300 for an hour?

I'm not gonna say you are wrong, because I bet these are your observations, but I still think something is off. A 20 min effort is a very aerobic effort, even if you have a huge W'. A 20 min effort at 365w is about 440 kJ and with great anaerobic capacity you might get 10% of those kJ from anaerobic processes. Thats 10%.

What you saying is basically that a 16 min 5k runner cant run a 1:30 half marathon. It does not make sense from an physiological standpoint.

Endurance coach
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Re: should i be training in areo [Cookiebuilder] [ In reply to ]
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Cookiebuilder wrote:
My ftp is the twenty min tr. I am sure it's right. I do 50 min at 85-90 percent once a week and stay in hr zone 3 not in areo. Last year with my old tt position that was more upright I held 285 at a race 1 hour. Since then my indoor ftp has increased. I am going to try the short high intnsity intervals added to each ride. And then just really try and stay in areo more indoors. That may be some of my problem, I have always been a indoor trainer guy. I have been fit twice this year the trick is I believe I am in a faster position... but yah maybe I should mess around with fit more.

That your old TT position allowed a 285 watt ftp suggests that your fit isn't good. You can try to really focus on riding that position nearly 100% of the time for a week or two and see if you can get back to your old numbers. If you are going to try this, I would follow Kraig Willett's advice and realize that if you can't adapt to the position in 10-14 days it ain't ever going to happen.

My advice would be consult with whomever did your fit and let them know your problem. If they are worth-a-shite they will evaluate if there are minors tweets that will fix your problems. As a side note watch Davis Phinney's GCN video on time trialing. It's funny with some surprising insights into TT
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Re: should i be training in areo [grumpier.mike] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks to everyone for your input I really needed help. i think you nailed it grumpier.mike
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Re: should i be training in areo [Cookiebuilder] [ In reply to ]
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 keep it simple, dont over complicate it.


Hard intervals= in aero,
easy rides =mix aero and non aero (not as crucial)

if you cant sustain your FTP in aero.... lower your FTP

SPECIFICITY is what matter if your goal is to get faster in triathlon

Jonathan Caron

Jonnyo Coaching
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Re: should i be training in areo [jonnyo] [ In reply to ]
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jonnyo wrote:
keep it simple, dont over complicate it.


Hard intervals= in aero,
easy rides =mix aero and non aero (not as crucial)

if you cant sustain your FTP in aero.... lower your FTP

SPECIFICITY is what matter if your goal is to get faster in triathlon

I have a TT position that is right at the borderline of what I can tolerate in terms of width and drop. I find that just doing rides at a bit below threshold for my planned race distance/duration is a good way to adapt. The first couple rides are uncomfortable but it is usually all OK after that and I can start working on FTP intervals without too much discomfort.
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Re: Should I be training in areo [Cookiebuilder] [ In reply to ]
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I'll throw a word of caution out there to avoid doing long periods on and in solely the aero position if you're not 100% certain on the ability of your body to handle the fit set up of your bike.

My n=1, in prep for my first IM I started doing all of my rides on the TT bike about 5 months prior to the IM, averaging about 6-7 hours a week with the majority of it in the aero position. I was worried about being able to hold that position for the full 180k so wanted to train specifically in that position to adapt.

What results was a chronic overload (when combined with some running on hills) of my hamstring tendon due to, I believe, poor flexibility through the hamstrings and lower back and an aggressive set up. End result - high hamstring tendonosis, partial tendon tear and bone bruising. Now 4 months after the IM and still cant run or ride without pain, and still cant even sit and drive my car for more than 30 minutes without pain.

For my next IM I will be riding my road bike as long as possible, and switching to the TT bike around 6 weeks out with a proper fit before hand.
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Re: should i be training in areo [Cookiebuilder] [ In reply to ]
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Cookiebuilder wrote:
Maybe that is the key, spend as much time as I can in area at those tougher intervals, problem is today was 10 min over under so 2 minutes at 283 watts then 2 min at 330 repeated for ten minutes. I made it for 3.5 minutes in areo then I had to give up to postion and sat up. And then the other two sets I was hurting bad enough sitting up that are was out of the question.

You should consider the goals of each workout you are doing to decide your priority as it pertains to your position. For example, if you are doing a tempo ride at 80%FTP for 2 hrs, this is a great ride to focus on long duration on riding in your aero position for long durations. This effort is very close to what you will face in a longer race where you will need to remain aero for long periods.

If you are doing a workout with 2-3 min V02 Max intervals, the goal here is to boost aerobic capacity and.or increase top end aerobic power. If you loose 15 watts in your aero position for these intervals, you are loosing some of the benefit of the workout, so it can be best to do these intervals in the position that allows you to hit the prescribed power, and in many cases the highest power possible.

Your over under session described above, that is a tough session. Sessions like that often have me on the brink of my sustainable power and are a good litmus of how well my 20 min power was set. On a session like this, I prioritize hitting my power numbers over staying in the aero position. I go into every interval with an Aero goal. For example, for the first 10 min interval, I may go in with the plan of holding aero for the first 4 min, then doing 2 min upright, then 4 min aero again. For the second interval, I go in with a plan for slightly less aero time. For the third interval, I may do all the recovery valleys upright. The point is, I try to maximize aero time without sacrificing the power goals. One recommendation I have when doing this is ALWAYS do the end of the interval in the aero position. Suffer through, you have a break coming. The end of the interval, and the latter intervals are the most important ones and those are the moments when the most adaption occurs.

Overtime, continue to increase the time spent in the aero position. You are training to bridge the gap between your aero power and upright power and will always be working on that. Keep the goal of the workout in mind. Not all workouts are about improving your aero power... Some are about metabolic efficiency, some are about aerobic capacity, etc. If staying aero causes you miss the main goal of the workout you are not doing yourself justice dropping your power to hold aero. As you get closer to your race, you want to be more specific and will want to be able to hold your race pace power in the aero position and should prioritize that position.
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Re: should i be training in areo [TennesseeJed] [ In reply to ]
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TennesseeJed wrote:
Cookiebuilder wrote:
Maybe that is the key, spend as much time as I can in area at those tougher intervals, problem is today was 10 min over under so 2 minutes at 283 watts then 2 min at 330 repeated for ten minutes. I made it for 3.5 minutes in areo then I had to give up to postion and sat up. And then the other two sets I was hurting bad enough sitting up that are was out of the question.

You should consider the goals of each workout you are doing to decide your priority as it pertains to your position. For example, if you are doing a tempo ride at 80%FTP for 2 hrs, this is a great ride to focus on long duration on riding in your aero position for long durations. This effort is very close to what you will face in a longer race where you will need to remain aero for long periods.

If you are doing a workout with 2-3 min V02 Max intervals, the goal here is to boost aerobic capacity and.or increase top end aerobic power. If you loose 15 watts in your aero position for these intervals, you are loosing some of the benefit of the workout, so it can be best to do these intervals in the position that allows you to hit the prescribed power, and in many cases the highest power possible.

Your over under session described above, that is a tough session. Sessions like that often have me on the brink of my sustainable power and are a good litmus of how well my 20 min power was set. On a session like this, I prioritize hitting my power numbers over staying in the aero position. I go into every interval with an Aero goal. For example, for the first 10 min interval, I may go in with the plan of holding aero for the first 4 min, then doing 2 min upright, then 4 min aero again. For the second interval, I go in with a plan for slightly less aero time. For the third interval, I may do all the recovery valleys upright. The point is, I try to maximize aero time without sacrificing the power goals. One recommendation I have when doing this is ALWAYS do the end of the interval in the aero position. Suffer through, you have a break coming. The end of the interval, and the latter intervals are the most important ones and those are the moments when the most adaption occurs.

Overtime, continue to increase the time spent in the aero position. You are training to bridge the gap between your aero power and upright power and will always be working on that. Keep the goal of the workout in mind. Not all workouts are about improving your aero power... Some are about metabolic efficiency, some are about aerobic capacity, etc. If staying aero causes you miss the main goal of the workout you are not doing yourself justice dropping your power to hold aero. As you get closer to your race, you want to be more specific and will want to be able to hold your race pace power in the aero position and should prioritize that position.

Will you stop trying to make perfect sense :)
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