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Season Long Swim Focus
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As my off-season break comes to an end I am contemplating cutting way back on my biking and running and spending 2018 focused on my swim (only racing for fun). If I could improve my swim times by 10% or more by 2019, this would be worth the investment.

What is a suggested approach to follow if I want to solely focus on improving my swim? Would 5 or 6 days a week with 90 minutes per workout be sufficient or should I add a second swim a couple of days a week? Should I instead join a masters group for 3 days a week and supplement that with three workouts on my own? Is there a model of how I should vary my swim workouts? Without any feedback I would probably cycle through the Guppy/Tarpon/Tuna program several throughout the year adding a sixth swim per week when possible. I remember a discussion from a few years ago where someone undertook a three month swim focus swimming 7-8 times a week, but I was not able to find that thread.

My current swim statistics are: 1:35-1:38 range per 100 yards when swimming a 20x100; 1:31-1:32 for an all out 100. 30:27 swim time at Age Group Nationals in Omaha (my bike and run were fast enough to take me from 52nd in my age group after the swim to 20th by the finish hence my plan); 1:14:01 swim time at Ironman Florida. In a hard 100 I take 21 strokes to get across the pool (11 left arms; 10 right arms) and my stroke rate is about 27 spm on my Garmin.
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Re: Season Long Swim Focus [spcasey] [ In reply to ]
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I'd go for as much masters as possible and then fill in with your own sessions as you have time.

I'm also a little interested in why your fast 100 is not that different than your 20 x 100 pace? For your fast 100 are you talking about an all out effort after a solid warmup?

My 100 PR for practice is nearly 20s / 100 faster than the pace I would target for a 20 x 100. The difference is even great between my swim meet 100 PR. There are much more expert swimmers on this board than me, but I'd say you need speed work. I've seen really significant gains in my 10 x 100 set from largely focusing on improving my top end swimming speed.
Last edited by: MadisonGuy: Dec 14, 17 12:43
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Re: Season Long Swim Focus [spcasey] [ In reply to ]
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I'm interested to see what responses you get, as I think I may be forced down this path due to injuries in my hip flexors and lower abdominals. Your statistics are almost exactly the same as mine for both pace and SPL on the same 20x100 set.

I'm currently trying to manage 5-6x per week at 12-15k while performing a USRPT 20-25x100 set twice a week. I'm currently seeing about a 1-2s per 100 improvement per week. I'm sure that will plateau somewhere, at which point I'll evaluate adding another USRPT set, per week...or more volume. But, that plan may be altered by what responses you get here.
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Re: Season Long Swim Focus [spcasey] [ In reply to ]
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What is your age? 5-6 workouts a week 75-90 minutes each and join the masters for as much of it as you can. Supplement with dryland/circuit weights 3x wk, bi tri shoulder press rowing lat pulldowns etc

Doubles are for competitive age group swimmers(13-25 years old). Instead of just planning to swim a bunch this year why dont you just do a 12-14 week swim season and finish your season with a big swim race like an OW swim and then go back to Tri events
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Re: Season Long Swim Focus [MadisonGuy] [ In reply to ]
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[I'm also a little interested in why your fast 100 is not that different that your 20 x 100 pace? For your fast 100 are you talking about an all out effort after a solid warmup?]

My all-out 100 is based on workouts where I rest for a couple of minutes between each 100. It may be a little dated relative to the 20x100 as I have not done that workout in a while. That said, it cannot be much faster as my all-out 50, which is recent, is about 43 seconds.
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Re: Season Long Swim Focus [spcasey] [ In reply to ]
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I feel like your plan is based on a lot of assumptions, and gives up a lot of quality bike/run training, for an ambiguous outcome. After swimming I assume for a number of years and not improving as much as you'd like, you seem convinced that a major increase in volume is just the thing you need. Maybe it is, but an athlete in your shoes may be better served by examining the fabric of the current program, as often improvements can be made by simple changes in focus and activity, while the volume remains the same. Yours is the nuclear option, (and you're not even sure if that thing is gonna detonate or turn out to be a dud)

Let me be clear... for all athletes and to varying degrees, the hammer works: more training can improve technique, and in some circumstances it IS just as simple as cranking out some more -- humans are adaptation machines, we do it very, very well. But we can optimize our adaptation with proper application of training technique.

Give me 12 weeks to turn you around, and I'll give you the rest of your season's workouts at no charge. If after 12 weeks, you think I'm full of shit, come back to this thread, tell everyone so, and I'll give you your money back.
Last edited by: FindinFreestyle: Dec 14, 17 13:38
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Re: Season Long Swim Focus [spcasey] [ In reply to ]
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Interesting. My interpretation is that you’re a strong swimmer, to be able to maintain that steady-state pace, but there is some hiccup with your stroke where when you try to swim faster there is just too much drag.

I know this will open a can of worms regarding adding more swimming yards vs swimming ‘better’, but I think this really supports more swimming with the Master's program rather than just adding more time. I have really benefited from the variety of masters. Like most programs, there is a distance, stroke, and speed day. The variety is both fun and I’d argue a better path to a major break-through in swimming. Especially if you’re not also trying to make gains with running and biking at the same time.

I’d bet you would get better either way, but that you would set yourself up for major improvements if you could identify what is slowing you down on the 50’s - while also keeping your distance workouts. My 2 cents.
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Re: Season Long Swim Focus [spcasey] [ In reply to ]
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My short answer is to gently point out that you're hovering around an 8:00 / 500. There's no way in hell you need to focus on the swim for a year to turn that around.
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Re: Season Long Swim Focus [spcasey] [ In reply to ]
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spcasey wrote:
I remember a discussion from a few years ago where someone undertook a three month swim focus swimming 7-8 times a week, but I was not able to find that thread.

That may have been my discussion about my experience.

A few thoughts:

1) Would I recommend something like that to ANYone else, let alone someone in your shoes?

No, probably not. As Dave (FindingFreestyle) mentions: that's the nuclear option that may or may not work. Did I get faster? Yes. But at what cost? I have never really been motivated to swim much ever since then (4 years ago now). Luckily, that set the bar a little higher so I've had solid swim times since with very little REAL focus/hard work, but that 3 months killed my swimming desire.

2) As Dave says, examining yourself as a swimmer from a holistic perspective is crucial, I think. You're an "ok" swimmer. You probably don't need to invest a year to become an "better than ok" swimmer.

3) What you'll lose on the bike/run is likely not worth the swim investment time for you/most age groupers.
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Re: Season Long Swim Focus [Gonefishin5555] [ In reply to ]
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Gonefishin5555 wrote:
bi tri shoulder press

What's that?
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Re: Season Long Swim Focus [spcasey] [ In reply to ]
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You don’t need to do anywhere near that much work. In all honesty, you’d probably be risking some shoulder injuries with that type of program.

You could see really big improvements on 5 days week with 3 hard workouts and 2 easy workouts. If you are looking for a 10% improvement from where you are starting then it could easily be a lot less.

You could get a lot out of a very specific strength and conditioning program and swimming with a masters team.

If you have any other questions, please let me know. I’m happy to help.

Tim

http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com
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Re: Season Long Swim Focus [TulkasTri] [ In reply to ]
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me posting without commas. Biceps, Triceps, Shoulder Press. I like to do 2 different triceps machines when I am lifting with swimming in mind. Also lots of Abs
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Re: Season Long Swim Focus [Gonefishin5555] [ In reply to ]
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Gonefishin5555 wrote:
me posting without commas. Biceps, Triceps, Shoulder Press. I like to do 2 different triceps machines when I am lifting with swimming in mind. Also lots of Abs

LOL!

I googles before you answered and found this:


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Re: Season Long Swim Focus [spcasey] [ In reply to ]
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spcasey wrote:
As my off-season break comes to an end I am contemplating cutting way back on my biking and running and spending 2018 focused on my swim (only racing for fun). If I could improve my swim times by 10% or more by 2019, this would be worth the investment.

What is a suggested approach to follow if I want to solely focus on improving my swim? Would 5 or 6 days a week with 90 minutes per workout be sufficient or should I add a second swim a couple of days a week? Should I instead join a masters group for 3 days a week and supplement that with three workouts on my own? Is there a model of how I should vary my swim workouts? Without any feedback I would probably cycle through the Guppy/Tarpon/Tuna program several throughout the year adding a sixth swim per week when possible. I remember a discussion from a few years ago where someone undertook a three month swim focus swimming 7-8 times a week, but I was not able to find that thread.

My current swim statistics are: 1:35-1:38 range per 100 yards when swimming a 20x100; 1:31-1:32 for an all out 100. 30:27 swim time at Age Group Nationals in Omaha (my bike and run were fast enough to take me from 52nd in my age group after the swim to 20th by the finish hence my plan); 1:14:01 swim time at Ironman Florida. In a hard 100 I take 21 strokes to get across the pool (11 left arms; 10 right arms) and my stroke rate is about 27 spm on my Garmin.

I got forced down this path 2 years ago due to a spine/disc injury that affects control of one of my legs while running and biking but its "ok" for swim.

To avoid shoulder injuries, when I went from tri program to 7x per week program, I made sure there was a lot of kicking in my focus lying on one side, with fins, without fins and kick board as I did not want to have to deal with shoulder issues. I also worked all 4 strokes to add overall balance to me body and move my body in different ways from just free.

If I were you, I would go 3x per week masters and the other 3 days make the very much leg/lower body focus. People really under estimate the huge value the kick and its not really a propulsion thing, more about getting the legs steamlined and the timing perfect. I think you will make decent gains, but don't expect anything really dramatic....my guess is you get a bit faster in the water, and you get a lot faster on the bike-run because you are way more efficient in the swim and not depleting your glycogen stores during the swim leg and can stay down in fat burning mode. My 2 cents is that most triathletes over swim and really lose a lot of precious glycogen stores during the swim leg.
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Re: Season Long Swim Focus [Gonefishin5555] [ In reply to ]
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Thank you for the feedback. It sounds like Masters is a given and that I should be cautious about doing too much and burning out. As a note, part of my scaling back on the bike and the run is to avoid burnout in those disciplines.

To answer a few of the questions above, I am age 50 so I will be in the 50-54 age group for a few years. One weakness that I know causes problems is lack of flexibility in the ankles. My feet definitely create drag and slow me down. One reason that I believe that additional volume will help is that I increased my swim frequency to 4-5 times a week this year and that helped me to improve from 95th in the 45-49 age group at Nationals in 2016 to the 52nd in the 50-54 age group I mentioned above. (In 2016 my bike and run took me to 23rd in my age group).
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Re: Season Long Swim Focus [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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my guess is you get a bit faster in the water, and you get a lot faster on the bike-run because you are way more efficient in the swim and not depleting your glycogen stores during the swim leg and can stay down in fat burning mode. My 2 cents is that most triathletes over swim and really lose a lot of precious glycogen stores during the swim leg.

My thoughts exactly.

I have done a couple of swim volume blocks and, for me, they were a great investment.
My focus was not really to get a lot faster, but mainly to be able to swim with the usual pack I do (1st chase pack on my AG) but spending less energy. For that, volume worked better than intensity for me - since I am a adult onset swimmer, my focus is to be "confident" and "comfortable" in the water, and that was hard to achieve when I was doing less volume but higher intensity. Don't get me wrong, I still do hard sets every session, but not all repeats are "hard" efforts like I used to do before.

Contrary to James' experience, after those blocks I like to swim more than I used to, mainly because I feel a lot more confident in the water. I try to swim 15k-20k/week year round with workouts adapted for me (and more triathlon specific) by our masters coach.
Last edited by: vittorio: Dec 15, 17 4:08
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