My impression is that the salty sweater concept came from 1 of 2 places, maybe both:
1. From the people in Florida that invented gatorade for the football team that couldn't handle the heat
2. From the people who made actual sweaters.

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Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/

I've never heard the term "salty sweater" before. It's not a very good name for the myth, because that part's not a myth. There's salt in sweat, and people sweat. Sometimes a lot.


I think the myth part may have more to do with the benefits of ingestion rather than loss through sweating?


Jonathan Toker, way back in 2009, did a good article on salt excretion, supplementation, etc.

I don't get what you are trying say. Are you agreeing that people aren't salty sweaters? Or are you saying that people are? Because I'm sweating right now and it is salty.

I'm not familiar with this term for a myth, but I do think people are too sensitive about salt and electrolyte intake. If someone wants to take a salt pill during long distance events that is fine, but the research is a tad dodgy about whether it really makes any difference. I rarely experience cramping (and when I do it is under conditions where nothing could prevent it) so I sympathize a bit with wanting to find something that works.

Also, I find the whole term "nutrition" to be absurd. Can we just agree to stop saying it? It is as if suddenly companies took basic carbs & protien, called it something else and then jacked up the price by 50%.

My attempt at understanding the OP:

Fact:

1. Sweat is salty. Sometimes close-to-zero, sometimes 50/50 (exaggerating)
2. When exercising, you sweat more.

Consequence of facts:

1. When exercising, you lose salt. (close to zero, or maybe a soup spoon full)

Myth:

1. Because you lose salt, you should supplement with salt.

Reality:

1. Your body is trying to maintain 6% salinity. (or maybe a soup spoon)
2. You're sweating water, so you'll sweat 6% salt.

Consequence of Myth:

0. You believe everything you read in forum.slowtwitch.com.
1. You consume salt when you're already above 6% salinity.
2. Your body sweats even more salt.
3. repeat.
4. eventually: your muscles stop being able to access water.

Consequence of Reality:

1. When you consume excess water, your sweat could be below 6% salinity. ('coz your body is trying to remove water)

All of this is to try and make sense of the OP. (I do believe triathletes consume too much salt in general, but that's a generalization.)

You are right for the most part but the amount of sodium lost varies from individual to individual (normal range is 500mg/L to 2g/L of sodium loss). I tend to be in the 1-1.25g/L range based on testing with a Sweat Analyzer and don't consume much salt in my normal diet so I do supplement otherwise my sodium levels will get low but it is different for everyone.

I do think people are sold the idea that you need to salt load or you're going to cramp or whatever the marketer determines will happen if you don't.

In reality you need to test things out for yourself and find out what works.

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Rodney
TrainingPeaks | Altra Running | RAD Roller
http://www.goinglong.ca

It's because people are looking for any answer to why they are performing poorly other than their own pacing and training mistakes.

The anecdotal evidence provided by others and the occasional positive experience with salt tablets is good enough for them.

While some electrolytes are necessary, more isn't always better and can lead to dumping of that extra salt so commonly found on their clothes.

I live in Tucson. Most of my running is done in the afternoons, early evenings, and mid-mornings. It is my belief that a body looses more than 1.25 gallon of water during the course of a 20 mile run on a 100 degree day. And that that water needs to be replaced. It was also my belief that replacing large amounts of water without replacing electrolites could lead to hyponatria.

Are we arguing that all salts (ie. Potassium, Magnesium, Zinc salts) are unnecessary or just sodium salt?
Are we arguing that in most cases "salts" are unnecessary? (Long summer runs in Tucson would be the exception).
I feel that potassium does work to reduce cramping and that drinking water with electrolite pills also make me feel less ill during long runs. "Feelings" can be misleading though.

Interesting study, but it's one study and the temperature during the study was cool. Additional studies would be needed to make the broad recommendation you're making. In addition hyponatraemia is a serious complication that can easily result in death and the time you are most likely to miss or ignore the warning signs are the final miles of an Ironman. IMO it is far safer for athletes to take in too much sodium than risk hyponatraemia. The statement "almost impossible" casually dismisses the very real threat under the guise that every westerner consumes enough sodium to survive 12 hours of vigorous exercise.

My n=1 is that during cooler weather and shorter duration training/races (under 3 hours) additional sodium is not needed. When temperatures and duration increase in the summer I need sodium, some of the reason is I lose desire to take in anything even slightly sweet (and thus stop consuming calories) and the other is I will (and have) started experiencing the first signs of hyponatraemia. I don't add sodium to my food so I think my sodium intake is lower than most westerners.

The study you quote has major design flaws and no conclusions can be drawn from it.

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Two wheels good. Four wheels bad.

Read Waterlogged by Tim Noakes.

All of those athletes appear to have supplemented their sodium intake. The placebo group just didn't do it in tablet form. You may or may not need to take salt tabs, this study does not answer that question.

"Fact is, the salty sweater is the person who has more than enough sodium. His sweat is salty because his body is dumping surplus sodium in his sweat."

This is your myth. The kidneys do a much better job of keeping electrolyte balance than your sweat glands.

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I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.

It is no myth, the sweat glands restrict sodium output as sodium is depleted. The rate of sweat is retained but the sodium content is reduced.

The kidneys do most of the job, but humans evolved so as not to sweat out sodium when levels get low.

Now that is a myth, if it were true Hyponatremia wouldn't be an issue but it is and can be deadly. When sodium levels get low your metabolism will adjust in an effort to not fully deplete itself but you will continue to lose sodium until your body shuts down and you end up in a coma or dead.

There is some good information here on sodium loss and hydration and you can see based on your sweat rate that the amount of sodium you lose can vary wildly from individual to individual.

http://fellrnr.com/wiki/Hydration_101


If you know your sweat rate you can get a pretty good approximation by entering your height and weight here and lining it up with your sweat rate. http://fellrnr.com/wiki/Sodium_Loss

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Rodney
TrainingPeaks | Altra Running | RAD Roller
http://www.goinglong.ca

"The kidneys do most of the job, but humans evolved so as not to sweat out sodium when levels get low."

But this is the inverse of what he is saying. He is saying that people who have excess salt have extra salty sweat. The kidneys are where the vast majority of this work is being done. Otherwise people who ate a lot of salt would die unless they worked up a sweat on a regular basis.

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I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.

That only happens if you drink too much water.

Hyponatremia only happens when you drink too much water? So now you are saying you need to consume sodium?

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Rodney
TrainingPeaks | Altra Running | RAD Roller
http://www.goinglong.ca

Maybe the comparison between electrolite products and sports nutrition products is valid. Both have a legitimate (but specific and unusual) "need" that they fulfill. Both are grossly oversold for extremely broad purposes. Racing an Ironman, or doing a 3 hour run in 100+ degree heat, ARE not the same thing as completing a 10k on a spring day.

No, I'm saying don't drink too much water even if the water contains sodium.

All this is in Waterlogged by Tim Noakes.

Oh you read a book :)

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Rodney
TrainingPeaks | Altra Running | RAD Roller
http://www.goinglong.ca

just curious, but is there really solid hard data on how much sodium one really needs?

For my n=1 I am on an extremely extremely low sodium diet (500mg/day usually), and I bike commute 2-2.5 hours every day, which of course implies quite a bit of sweating, especially in the summer, but I have had no adverse effects or felt really that much change compared to when I was eating a 'standard diet' in terms of sodium (which for sure was at least 2500mg/day, given how foods are nowadays) not to mention that of course just being a commute I am not drinking any fluids during it at all: it just seems interesting that I am eating easily 5-6x less sodium than before and haven't noticed much change at all in how I feel, so it makes me wonder how much sodium we really need during exercise.

+1

By western world, I suspect you mean USA?

I live in the Western World too, but outside the US.

I am a salty sweater. I eat almost exclusively home made meals from scratch. I don't add much if any salt to my food (during cooking or afterwards). I'm not a salt fan. I prefer subtle natural tasting food (chocolate excepted).

I'm on some heart and BP meds. Unlike beta blockers, mine (Cozaar/Losarten) actually strip salt out of my system. I have to be very careful to make sure I get enough salt in my diet.

While I agree with the general sentiment of your post, I think A) you need to realize the western world is more than just one country B) your sample set of N=1 can lead to increasing inaccuracy with extended extrapolation past N=1.

In general, generalizations are generally accurate, but........... :-)

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TriDork

"Happiness is a myth. All you can hope for is to get laid once in a while, drunk once in a while and to eat chocolate every day"

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