my advice: don't do it. Likely to risk injury so close to two full IMs in five weeks.

If you absolutely insist and want to maximize performance, stop biking and swimming, run 6-7x/wk, all slow except for tempo 20-30 min once a week and a progression long run building towards marathon pace.

dude you're crazy.
and i'm thinking as much about your training schedule as your race schedule.

not telling you not to do the marathon, just...

-let your foot heal. not saying full rest, just that you don't want to spend the first 15 miles of the marathon thinking about your foot and the last 11 walking.

-don't run off the bike. you want to make cycling a part of your training, that's great. maybe even switch it up - run for a bit and then bike. but i see no advantage and many disadvantages to making bike/run bricks a part of marathon training.

-one week's not a lot of taper for a marathon. i'll even go ahead and say not enough taper.

Why would you run off the bike now?

The pain or reasoning of pain in your foot doesn't make sense. That's key to watching.

Also screw a PR. Set out to run a solid negative split run. Whatever the time is, the time is. I say that more because I don't think you are in PR shape with all the background info.

Did you run sub 4 hours for 1st IM marathon?

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

thanks for all the input.

i run off the bike because i tend to run well off the bike.

ie: my half PR is 1:33, my open half PR is 1:32 (granted, more difficult course).

i also like to bike before i run (we're not talking super hard. z1 stuff), because i feel really warmed up and i'm reducing risk of injury.

when i say my foot is sore/hurt. i mean it aches. just the distal met heads of the 2nd and 3rd. it's not an injury issue/risk. i know my body better than that.

my first marathon i ran in 3:39, since then i've done 6 IM marathons and 6-8 more open marathons all ranging from a 3:28 PR with the rest being in the 3:38-3:43 range with one outlier being 5:05? disney marathon with gf.

my goal is to always negative split the marathon. my PR race, i think i neg split by 4 minutes?

i would think that running 6-7x a week would increase, not decrease my risk of injury. i've always liked the concept of doing 3 sport training, even for marathons. i like the cross training, i feel it reduces my injury risk, and most importantly, i feel i get more fitness without beating up my body as much.

during IM training i average about 25mpw running. if i can bump this up to 40-45 by reducing the time on the bike, plus keep around 3-4 hrs a week on the bike and 1 hour in the pool, it's got to be worth at least another 10 miles of running fitness (completely arbitrary number mind you).

thoughts?

john

So here is my assessment. Your in great IM fitness shape but you likely have zero fast run speed in your legs right now. Running in an IM for completion is far different than running 7:27 min miles for 26 miles.

Think about what you are saying. You just did 2 marathons in 2 IM's and NOW you want to increase your run volume by 60 % in 6 weeks AND PR by 15 mins. You want your 3rd marathon in 11 weeks to be an PR?

If you don't burn out and injure yourself I'd say you should be stoked if you make the line and run faster than 3:4x.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

lol. so you're saying there's a chance? (dumb and dumber reference for those old enough)....

marathon 1) wasn't really much of a marathon.. ran 4:19... mostly jogged, walked all water stops, walked all hills, stretched at every porta potty after mile 16. goal was to stay healthy for choo.

marathon 2) was out of any chance whatsoever for kona. so i jog walked the first 13 miles, then was just pissed at the whole day and walked 6-8 miles.

so lets pretend i didn't do 2 ironmans.. lets pretend i did two half irons instead..

what would you suggest for the best training plan to PR my marathon.

john

Keep run mileage closer to 32 miles max. Add some speed sets where your running 15s faster than race pace at min.

Your too close to race to bump up volume that much and increase intensity.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I did my fastest open marathon off of IM training and did it 7 weeks after.

Leave off the bricks. No benefit.
Increasing running is good but don't over do it you don't have to build a lot of fitness. You do need to build running fitness as much as you can though. I would likely not do the recovery week. I'd do another week of higher Z2 mileage and some tempo / race pace work there then taper it down for 2 weeks.
I'd do a bit of swimming. I'd ride only as recovery workouts. Get back on the bike after the marathon.

I'd do 5 km or 10km race or time trial right now and then use Daniels Vo2 or McMillan and get some reasonable idea of training paces . Then use Daniels ' workouts. do a week or two of one of his plans and see what paces you are holding for the given efforts ( I.e. Tempo, threshold etc) then cross reference with the pace calculators. Then you will know your running fitness and then you can plan your race.

As far as I'm concerned even paced marathons is the best strategy.

Have fun

In 6 weeks you can't really train for a marathon, I guess your endurance is good from the IM training, so maybe just do some threshold runs and keep up the long runs for the next month.

I don't think that aiming for a big negative split is the best way to run a fast marathon. If you go out in 1:40 and back in 1:35, you need to run close to your half marathon PR in the 2nd half. Even splits are the way to go, and if you have a good day then you could negative split, but aiming to negative split means you will be leaving something on the table.

I wouldn't do the marathon at all if i were you, you don't have time to train for it and your body most probably needs rest after the IMs. But good luck if you do it!

This is a standalone marathon, right?

Don't bike. Don't swim. Run. Use that time you aren't swimming or biking to run more. Make it easy-peasy but push that volume.

It's only for a few weeks.

Does it increase your chance for injury? Yes. Do it anyway. Don't train through injury but take the risk. It's not that big of a risk. That's why you run easy. At low weekly volumes, extra volume helps a lot. Extra speed, not so much. Not for the marathon.

all interesting info guys. thanks. i'll digest and respond when i'm home.

i'm surprised so many people don't incorporate more cross training into their marathon prep. it's not like i'm aiming for a sub 3 marathon. we're talking a 3:15 here. it seems pretty pedestrian for most people.

<html><body bgcolor="#FFFFFF">you're getting pretty consistent advice and I agree with it. building run volume is good, but not to 55mpw, and you need at least a 2 week taper, nearer 3.<div><br></div><div>&nbsp;it takes about 3 weeks for your body to adapt to training and improve fitness. therefore anything you do within 2 weeks of the marathon is not going to improve your fitness for the race. remember, you get faster on rest days. think about that.&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>Your best chance to go around 3:15 is to be as rested as possible. agree with even pacing too. DONT speed up at mile 16, or 18, or 20... check how you're feeling at mile 22 and then if you feel great, EDGE up the pace a bit.</div><div><br></div><div>You may feel ok, but your body is spent and you may only realise it after LV. Hopefully without injury or illness.</div></body></html>

I always love these threads!

OP: Hey guys give me advice on how to train. Currently I' doing x, y, and z.

ST: Stop doing x, y, and z and just focus on z.

OP: *Defends reasons for doing x, y, and z. Then asks for more advice*

ST: See above

OP: Thanks guys! I'm going to digest this and continue with x, y, and z!

No, I will not school you on how to train for your next marathon. You've been given good advice here, but choose to challenge it. Go about your training as you see fit and accept whatever the result. Next thread please.

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What I do: http://app.strava.com/athletes/345699

just because i'm asking questions, doesn't mean i'm not going to take the advice i'm given.

typical ST. jumping to conclusions.

My perspective. You are doing too much. I did two IM's this year, faired way better than you, and am already back running faster than what you are saying you are running, but there's no way I'd risk a marathon right now with how I feel and I don't have any nagging stuff (just feeling fatigued) that you claim you do. It's time to regroup and prep for crushing next year.

Personal experience. In 2012 I did Augusta 70.3 and MCM within 4-5 weeks of each other. I went run heavy on my Augusta training and ended up having a PR for that time and course that day at Augusta. I was also knocking 18+ mile long runs out around a 7 flat pace. Went up to MCM and ended up running 6:55-7 for the first 18 then wheels came off the bus and I ran right under 3:20. I really think an earlier poster summed it up talking about speedwork and not just training long. I really think to be in the shape to PR a marathon you need to be running 50+ miles a week.

I can only think of one instance in the past 5-6 years of watching this forum where someone has received a bunch of advice and proved everyone wrong and that was the guy who called his shot for KQ'ing at Texas. I'd say that that means the forum generally has a good track record with advice.

I tend to agree. Shoot for maybe 45-ish miles per week, quit cycling and swimming for now. Run more and run slow. Zone 2 max. For longer runs, take a couple of 1 min break here and there if the HR gets too high.

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Next races on the schedule: none at the moment

This guy has a PhD in "therapy". He is also "young" and in the 120lb range. Let him go and report back on his findings.

3:15 pedestrian?

1:33 on a hard half course means you're probably in the ballpark speed wise, but for that half to translate over to a marry you need muscular endurance and I don't see that happening with 25 mpw running plus a few weeks at 40mpw. Mile 22 is going to be ugly, those last few miles will be absolutely miserable. If you want to hit 3:15, you'll probably have to run with the 3:05-ish group and then pray you don't fade too bad at the end. If you go out with the 3:15 group I don't see you holding that pace for 26, sorry. But maybe you'll pull it off, let us know how it turns out, sounds like you're committed. Ditch all the other sports, run as much as you can, and I'd taper off 10 days out, not 7. You're not getting enough incremental bump day in those extra few days that makes it worth it imo.

I'd get some Dr. Scholl's "ball of foot" met pads to help with the met pain. They've been a lifesaver for me.

Then think about a 10 day taper. 7 days isn't enough IMO.

I don't think all of the cross-training is that big of a deal. It'll probably help. Like you said, you're not trying to break 3 hours and your half PR projects out to about what you're trying to run. You just need to be sure you do whatever you can to boost your run endurance, which is the most important element of marathoning.

I would make sure to get in a long run of 16-22 every week and a mid-week med-long run of 12-15.

Tempo is more important than VO2max, so if you want to get in speedwork, do something between mile reps at LT up to 4-5 miles at LT in the middle of an 8-10 mile run. Do these at 7min pace or better (goal MP-25 sec).

Like you I thought I was in the shape of my life during my tri season last year. I trained for a 70.3 and had a great race and wanted to do something else before completely ending the season. Decided to run a marathon since I had PRed every run distance during the tri season and thought with my cross training I could run a decent marathon. Due to a few different commitments I only had 3 weeks to train for the marathon (allowing for a 2 week rest period before the race). Had done a 15 and 16 mile long run during 70.3 training so started marathon training with a 15 mile long run and 30 miles for week 1 of the train up, 20 mile long run and 42 miles for week 2, and 20 mile long run and 40 miles for week 3. Weekly totals were between 19 and 27 miles for the previous 8 weeks (plus swimming and biking). Weather was perfect for the marathon and I ended up running a 3.15. My half marathon PR before the marathon was a 1.36 that I did in my 70.3. I did run a 1.32 on a semi hilly course a month after the marathon so our half marathon PRs are similar. My first 20 miles of the marathon felt great. Last 6 a bit of a struggle but not too awful (was running 7.20s for first 20 and last 6 were around 8 flats). Good luck and listen to your body during training but with a short run focused build (with your cross training background) you can definitely PR your race. Have a great run and enjoy!

Run the half for all the reasons others have listed. My $.02, I did the full last year, the strip at night stuff is cool. Like really freaking cool, especially because it was my first time to Vegas. But you get all of that in the half course, and the half is flat and fast. The full you run for 15 miles thru boring commercial areas, foothills, and pretty meh residential areas up in north Vegas. The full RnR course kinda sucks.

hey folks, solid advice. i'll answer this as best as i can. not to say what any of you suggested is crap, but to give you more info about me, so you can better help me.



100% running the full. there is no question about that. i'm there to tick nevada off, then climb for a few days. it just happened to work out that i could kill 2 birds with 1 stone. no way i'm going back to vegas until i can climb into the much higher grades and do some of the iconic red rock climbs (another 3-4 years away)


thanks man. i'm not worried about long runs. after my first marathon, i gave up long runs. i've run 8 marathons since my first one and most of it has been on 7-10 weeks of 30mpw training. i hit my first 40mpw last winter when i decided to train for savannah marathon and ended up with a PR.

i'm also not really that tired from the ironman efforts. immt was a training day. i purposely walked jogged the run. i even stopped to stretch 10 or so times. i have been more sore after half ironmans..

imchoo, though a rough day, was not physically too bad on my body. of the marathon, i probably walked 12 of it. again, i was a little sore, but even less so than mont tremblant.


i'm a believer of long runs up to 13-14 miles. after that. i just don't see the benefits. it takes me longer to recover. i would rather run 13 in the am, then 3-5 in the evening. i'm also a believe of total volume over the week.. ie: 6 miles 5 days a week, then 10 on sat and sunday is better than a long run on sat or sunday followed by a bunch of 3-8 mile runs. a

i do like the tempo work though. yesterday was my first run. i got home really late from work and just wanted to see if i had any speed in my legs. first mile i went out at 6:48, felt fine. 2nd mile i picked up the tempo (ran to the track) and ran 2 laps at 5:01 and 5:03 pace, then slowed it down to finish the 2nd mile at 6:43. i jogged home at 8:30 pace. total of 2.8ish miles?

today i hit the treadmill for 30 miles and banged out 4 miles. did a short 1 min walk, ramped pace to 8 for first mile, then to 7:30, then to 6:40, then finished with a 3 minute walk as well. felt fine (i run 30 mins on treadmill before i climb)


cool. never really thought of it that way. i've never run a 3:15. by pedestrian, i mean a lot of friends i know who can't run as fast as i can on a track, or have slower 5k pr and 10k pr's than i do can run that. most of my friends who can run a 3:15 open marry can't run a 1:40 off the bike.. a close friend who is physically (pretty much) my identical twin, runs a 2:40 open marry, but at the HIM he runs the same split as i do. not that it means much in open marathon... i just "feel" my potential is faster than 3:15, have nothing to prove it, ha ha.



not trying to prove anyone right or wrong. but i guess it would be great to prove everyone wrong.

i do believe someone above hit it on the head. the muscular endurance is def going to be my biggest issue.

i guess it doesn't hurt to shoot for 3:15. if i end up with anything in the 3:25 and under region, i'm going to be pretty stoked. PR is a PR, right?

i'm going to do an easy 5 on the tmill tomorrow. thursday i'll be able to do a bit more tempo, friday i was going to go a bit longer and easier (8:30 pace, 8 miles). sat i'm at a wedding, so i'm going to try and squeeze in a 5k sometime during the day. sunday i'll do more tempo running?

that should put me around 40 for the week. good, right?

A 3:15 marathon is pedestrian, for someone who can easily run faster! For you it will be a 100% effort (maybe more!), don't downplay it, it will be tough.

I have the feeling you underestimate how much toll it all takes on your body, I can't really understand how you walked 12 miles of an IM marathon, but it wasn't too hard! The reason people start walking is because the can no longer physically run, which isn't a 'normal' state of affairs!

Good luck with the marathon, I think that if you trained properly for a marathon i.e. >70 mile weeks, actual long runs + 16 week build up, you would most probably break 3, but for the training you are doing, you are doing good times.