You've only had one race and you failed on nutrition. So I would suggest getting nutrition in shape and then you can actually evaluate where you stand wrt the run. It may be better than you think.

How did you determine your tempo pace....it seems slow.

I'm big and fat and that's about what I can hold over 4-5mi. Maybe I'm misusing tempo, but somewhere between 7:30-8:00 is my open 5k pace depending on the given day. On a fairly flat course I can hang around 7:45-8:00 for 4-5mi. I'm pretty new to all sports. 1.5 years ago I was an even fatter, pack a day smoker who drank every night. So my progress is huge despite still being waaaaaaay at or below average for most folks on here. But I have goals to get much better and much faster and I'm dedicated to the cause, so just trying to gather some info.

Great on you. Fantastic.
Tempo would be the pace you could hold for an hour ( then keel over)
In terms of getting faster then....

Keep losing weight and keep building up your endurance base.
Get some experience under your belt in racing....have fun with it! That is the main thing.
Weight loss though will get you faster better than anything if you are fat....I would consult a coach( if you haven't already) so that you can have fun and reach your goals in a healthy way that won't lead to injury or poor health.

Roger that. Fat is probably a bit overstated. I'm not lean by any means, but like I said, I held my own in the race as well. Had my run not totally fallen apart, and I just held a 9:15 pace as I had planned, I would have finished dead mop. Which I would have been totally happy with. Challenge AC is coming in a few weeks, so I suppose that'll be a good second test. Add a few more races this year and I'll have a good baseline for next.

With regards to speed work and tempo and how it increases longer run pace or race pace, what should a run structure look like? Should I be doing shorter intervals at faster speeds to get quicker or trying to run negative splits in long runs, or a buddy who runs only even suggested adding 4 mi of tempo work on the back end of a long run. I think that's the advice I'm looking for. Regardless of current ability, I think I am afraid of logging meaningless miles and want to make sure I'm getting the most out of each workout.

Great job OP.
One of the things I would suggest is to not look at the 3 parts f the triathlon as individual sports. The fact that you bonked on the run most likely isn't due to your run fitness but rather your swim fitness and your bike fitness. I suggest getting better at biking will also enhance your run performance in a tri.

Did you Swim, Bike Run, or Swim, Over-bike, Walk?

I don't think I over-biked. I didn't feel like I was killing myself on the bike at all. I train with power w/ InRide & TR currently, but do not have a power meter on the bike for outdoor rides yet. I realize it's important and unfortunately can't afford one quite yet, but it is my next mandatory investment. That said, flat course, little wind, 20mph is very doable for me. I was at a high cadence ~90-95 the entire ride. I bounced my last water bottle and prior bottles were filled w/ Skratch Labs. Plus some solids on the bike as well. But I was stupid and didn't finish all of the solids I planned to consume, so I know I was short calories. Was afraid of a GI issue and wasn't hungry. But lesson learned there. Eat what you plan to eat. Hydration also just wasn't there. I should have had much more water on the bike. By time I realized there was an issue, there was no catching up. Used water to choke down shot-blocks but I was way behind the 8 -ball at that point. But I digress.

Even in training there is a giant gap between my speed work speeds and long run speeds. Speed work pace has increased dramatically but long run pace isn't moving very much. I'd like to see some more change at the longer paces as well.

BarryP Run Plan: http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

Don't dismiss what KingMidas suggests above. Cumulative race fatigue is often misdiagnosed as crappy nutrition. GI issues and cramping are a major indicator. Pacing experience will help.

Right now it doesn't sound like you were able to complete your race run with a consistently slow pace. And you mention your long training runs feel like a death march. Probably an indicator of aerobic fitness. The BarryP run plan suggestion isn't a bad one. Consider building your running aerobic fitness base before concentrating on more speed work. Though heart rate training is less popular with the advent of powermeters it can be useful as an indicator of fitness for things like your long run where you don't want it climbing continuously through the run if you are maintaining a steady pace.

None of this doesn't mean you didn't have a nutrition issue, but it is one of those questions of what happened first.

So funny enough I've maybe done too much listening to just my run buddies and have totally sold myself short on longer, slow endurance runs. Seems like I maybe need to cut out the intervals and speed work and just get out and run more. Swap a 5 mile speed day for an 8 mi run. Get my mileage up higher and just work on increasing the aerobic endurance, leaving all of my intensity work to the swim and bike...

This is pretty enlightening. So hard as a new athlete trying to sift through all the info and figure out what's best. I know, a coach. But to not in the budget right now. So I have to self coach for the time being.

You and me both. Just got into this "mess" called Triathlons. Lost 50 lbs in the past year, and I just keep plugging along. I just add more time/distance to my runs. I'm not fast...but I don't think i'll ever win an event so I'm not real concerned. I think you can TRAIN to be faster, and that it will come over time. I'm not looking to progress fast, so I'll let it come.

I'd say stick with what you're doing and get your nutrition in shape. You'll be fine. Just need more practice at it.

Long runs will help, but as you hinted toward in your first sentence, they must be done at the right intensity to improve aerobic base. Most people that 'just run more' tend to work too hard at it. 8 months ago I started running with a coach (from basically not running). I was running zone 2 doing 11:30 miles. It felt horribly slow and pointless. Now I'm doing 9 minute miles in zone 2.

You don't have enough run fitness.

4d/wk of running is really the minimal, one shouldn't expect to improve too much on that. 5d/wk is about the minimal one should run and expect some decent improvement.

The most telling thing in your entire paragraph is that your long runs are death marches. Right there that tells me you're running too long on your long run days and/or you don't have the running frequency or duration to support running that long

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

I'm a big believer in this. I've done 3 half IMs, and I've cramped and blown up in all three (definition of insanity. . . .), and I'm absolutely convinced that it has to do with cumulative fatigue off the bike. My understanding, and I'm quite certain you all will correct me on this, but you need to be cycling 2-3x your race distance per week in order to be really fit off the bike. That was WAY too many miles for the amount of time I had, and I suffered every time. Just my .02.

Triathlon running is a test of both biking fitness and running fitness. I wouldn't be doing speed work if only running 3 times a week, you probably just need to run more often. And bike more.

Based on my own experiences, I'd say it's largely experience and overall fitness level. You'll get to know what works for you, nutritionally, through trial and error. Otherwise you just need time to build the fitness base with consistent training. 30 mi/week is not a bad number especially if you do it consistently year over year.

My run splits improved as my bike fitness improved and after a focused period of increased run frequency. Running 6 to 7 days per week, even if its just 30 miles per week provided a huge benefit to my standalone running times. The bike fitness and proper pacing provided a huge benefit to my tri running times.

You definitely need to look into your hydration issue. No matter what training you do, if you're not hydrated on race day it won't matter. It really isn't hard but may take a little tweaking in training. Step 1 is to start the race fully hydrated. Step 2 is to drink x amount of fluids every hour. The x depends on how much you lose, temperature, distance, etc. Like I said, tweak it in training. But if you show up on race day under-hydrated, you've set yourself up for disaster.

I think running well means getting off the bike with energy left over. Just because you can hold 20mph doesn't mean you need to if it's going to wear you out. Try to find out, in training, what you can sustain and still be able to run. It's trial and error. Once you find it, be disciplined enough on race day to stick to it. I have a problem in this area myself.

As far as just getting faster on the run, there are a couple of things. Interval training and maintenance runs with tempo efforts mixed in have worked wonders for me. Also, make sure you're at an appropriate weight. Weight isn't a huge issue on the bike but once you get off and start running it matters. This is trial and error also unless you know you're overweight.

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The best pace is a suicide pace, and today is a good day to die. -Steve Prefontaine

I almost guarantee that you overbiked.

Don't worry - I've done it too, even having very successful runs on prior HIMs for my fitness level. But don't rack up a run meltdown solely to nutrition and hydration if you're literally cramping and failing within the first 4 miles of the run. That's a fitness issue first. Yes, I know you feel like walking was so easy but your legs were cramped and thus you concluded it was a nutrition/electrolyte issue, but far, far more likely is that you overbiked. That's exactly what overbiking feels like - your legs cramp up and refuse to go at your typical paces.

Add the fact that you actually did have some solids and fluids on the bike (not zero) and there is no reason you should be walking after mile 3 on the run unless you overbiked (or you're in a race with extreme conditions.)

What does it mean if I suck at swimming, suck at the bike, but do good on the runs ;)

I agree you totally CAN screw up a run with bad bike or swim fitness. But at the end of the day, a run is a run. If your best 10k standalone run is 40:00, you aren't going to get 38 (or 39, or 40, or probably even 41) on an Olympic Tri 10k.. you need to be good at running (which as Desert Dude and others have pointed out means more days running, not speedwork)


OP - This was a sprint or Oly race I assume?

30mpw is PLENTY to do pretty dang decent at Spint or Oly races. But 12 mile longrun on 30 mpw is pushing it, you need to spread it out more.

If this was 70.3 on 30 MPW.. you may indeed want more volume.. 40 may be a good goal.

So this particular race was an odd mid distance that they called a "Half-Lite". A 50mi race .8mi/40.4mi/8.8mi. It essentially was my warm-up race for Challenge AC half at the end of June. Get a race under my belt so I know what to expect and can make training adjustments in the 7 weeks leading up to my A race.

A few take-aways, it looks like volume needs to increase. I'll likely try to run 4x a week for at least an hour, with long run at least 2 hours. Maybe avoid distance and learn to run for duration. The sample workouts I posted above does not actually reflect my bike/swim workouts, it was just an example to show what my run schedule looks like, adding in the "bike" portions to show that certain days are bricks.

The reason I went nutrition as the culprit was because I literally did not pee the entire race until I got home later in the day. I know I was well hydrated in advance, I am very careful and meticulous about my fluid intake on a daily basis. Just something I'm good at and monitor. I peed as soon as I got in the water (it was COLD) and that was that until 5-6 hours later. I also didn't feel "right" if that makes sense. When I was done the race I struggled to put together cohesive thoughts. I got the "cold" feeling in the middle of an 85deg unshaded run on black cement.

Regardless, my run clearly needs to be stronger. I am currently able to run an open half marathon in around 2 hours give or take depending on cumulative elevation of the course. When I say my long runs are a death march, I'm mostly meaning the last few miles. I go out and run fine for 8-9 miles, hold an even pace, sit around 140-145bpm heart rate. The last three miles when I'm working hard (death march) I get up around 170-180bpm which is where I'm at during hill workouts or running an open 5k.

Bike wattage will increase for training over the next 6 week block so that I can hopefully work at the same current wattage in the race with much stronger legs off the bike. But time will be the ultimate test here I suppose, with regards to what fitness gains I can make in 6 weeks.

Oh. Also - bad run meant I was having to walk short segments. I didn't literally slow to a total walk for the entire run. Run 3/4 mile, walk 100 yards, run a mile, walk an aid station, etc. But in my brick workouts I generally am able to knock out a 40mi ride and go run 6mi relatively comfortably. I mean, it's hard work, but not like this race was.

I've got an interesting case study for you. I did a half in November last year and had some solid and consistent run training in the lead up made up of three runs per week. Approx 10k Tues with 20 min of tempo, 10k Thurs and a long run Sat between about 20-26k. I got a bad PTT injury during the half and am only properly getting over it now. Just before the half I did a 5k time trial fresh and ran 19.40.

I had a sprint Tri at the start of March and due to my PTT I could only run up to about 15-20 min before I had to stop as t would flare up. During mid Dec to end of Feb I ran 6 days a week, mainly on the treadmill, minimal interval work, all between 15-20 min. I did the run leg of the sprint Tri in 19.08 after setting the third quickest bike leg of the day.

This has completely changed my outlook on run training, and will be implementing the BarryP plan this year.

What distance was the race, HIM? Are you sure the cramps weren't from fatigue? That short into the run, I'm guessing your work on the bike crushed your legs and they told your body to F-off.
The standard answer is bike more and it won't effect your run as much. I think you also need to concentrate on building pure run speed to carry over into you tri's. What's your age/current running plan?

When you say implementing the BarryP plan, what portion are you discussing? In the link above I started sorting through the articles, but really struggled to extract exactly what I should be doing. I'm going to assume you're talking about the 6 days/week shorter duration plan. Where you incrementally increase your time per day and ultimately have half the days longer than the other. It's really hard to swallow going from 1-2 hour runs to 15-20 minute runs though...