Running Advice: My legs cant keep up with my lungs

Oct 22, 14 7:23

Post #1 of 40 (8093 views)

Dear vast wisdom of Slowtwitch,
I ran a 3 mile race this past weekend where my lungs felt great and so did my legs. The problem is as I progressed around the course, despite being almost fully conversational, my legs just couldn't keep up and my pace dropped like a stone. Mind you, my legs were not burning excessively (like they do on the bike when I am pushing the pace), or in pain, they just would not keep up the pace. Very frustrating. I am hoping some of you more seasoned runners might have some idea of whats going on and suggest some ways to counteract my lower limb sloth. Thanks in advance for the serious (and wise ass) comments.

The Race Details:
The race file
The course was near pancake flat.
It was about 50 degrees and sunny

My Details:
I'm 38 and weigh about 195 (I'm 6'2")
While I have been "running" for about 5 years, I have not been a "runner". My running goals have been to lose weight and make sure that I can run the distance I need to complete the last leg of whatever triathlon I have been training for). It has only been over the last year that I have really been consistent about run training (see weekly schedule below).
My max HR is around 184
My 1 hr threshold is 168 or so
I was rested and modestly tapered for the race (the race was sunday, I had done a 2 hr long run on Thursday and an easy 3 on Saturday)

My Weekly Training:
My normal week usually looks like this:
3-4 miles easy 2 days a week, a
6-8 mile tempo run 1 day per week at 30 sec/mi less than 5K race pace
2 hr long run at easy pace 1 day per week (this is new as of August, prior to that I was just doing the 2x4mi and 1x6-8 mi per week.

I have some of my own theories, but they are just that, theoretical. I am hoping that some folks with more experience or insight can shed some additional light on my predicament

Ok, ST community, have at it ...

Thanks,
Pete

- Pete

Luckily my over eating disorder is offset by my over exercising disorder

Re: Running Advice: My legs cant keep up with my lungs [Big-Pete] [ In reply to ]

Oct 22, 14 7:31

Post #2 of 40 (8074 views)

1. What else do you do, training load wise?
2. If you only do (from the perspective of a 5k race) longer, easy runs, then your legs are going to be ill-prepared to go fast. Make at least one of your 3-4 mile "easy" days an interval sprint day. Spend some time going faster than your 5k race pace so that you can get more efficient at higher speeds.

Less is more.

Re: Running Advice: My legs cant keep up with my lungs [Big-Pete] [ In reply to ]

Oct 22, 14 7:33

Post #3 of 40 (8069 views)

Sounds like you're just running 25-30 miles per week maybe? Just run more dude.

Re: Running Advice: My legs cant keep up with my lungs [Big Endian] [ In reply to ]

Oct 22, 14 7:34

Post #4 of 40 (8065 views)

Big Endian wrote:

1. What else do you do, training load wise?
2. If you only do (from the perspective of a 5k race) longer, easy runs, then your legs are going to be ill-prepared to go fast. Make at least one of your 3-4 mile "easy" days an interval sprint day. Spend some time going faster than your 5k race pace so that you can get more efficient at higher speeds.

Someone running this little does NOT need an "interval sprint day." Come on now.

Re: Running Advice: My legs cant keep up with my lungs [jjabr] [ In reply to ]

Oct 22, 14 7:45

Post #5 of 40 (8024 views)

Yes they do. Drop your long run to 90 mins and take an easy day out to add in am interval/fartlek session. That is if you want to run 5k quicker. You have to train at below 5k pace.

Re: Running Advice: My legs cant keep up with my lungs [jjabr] [ In reply to ]

Oct 22, 14 7:46

Post #6 of 40 (8022 views)

jjabr wrote:

Big Endian wrote:

1. What else do you do, training load wise?
2. If you only do (from the perspective of a 5k race) longer, easy runs, then your legs are going to be ill-prepared to go fast. Make at least one of your 3-4 mile "easy" days an interval sprint day. Spend some time going faster than your 5k race pace so that you can get more efficient at higher speeds.

Someone running this little does NOT need an "interval sprint day." Come on now.

x2.

John

Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |

Re: Running Advice: My legs cant keep up with my lungs [Big-Pete] [ In reply to ]

Oct 22, 14 7:49

Post #7 of 40 (8007 views)

It sounds like your legs were tired.

I'm not a great runner and I've learned that my legs are at their best with lots of rest. A 2hr run followed by a 3 mi run the day before a race would leave my legs tired and underpowered. Try a bigger taper before your next race.

Mix in an interval day into your training. I'd get bored otherwise. Interval days are my favorite.

Re: Running Advice: My legs cant keep up with my lungs [jjabr] [ In reply to ]

Oct 22, 14 7:51

Post #8 of 40 (7995 views)

Quote:

Someone running this little does NOT need an "interval sprint day." Come on now.

He's never actually "running", though - how are his legs supposed to know what to do, come race day? His description is 16 miles per week of "easy" and "30s/mile slower than 5k pace", and 2 hours of "easy".

Less is more.

Re: Running Advice: My legs cant keep up with my lungs [Big Endian] [ In reply to ]

Oct 22, 14 7:55

Post #9 of 40 (7978 views)

Big Endian wrote:

1. What else do you do, training load wise?
2. If you only do (from the perspective of a 5k race) longer, easy runs, then your legs are going to be ill-prepared to go fast. Make at least one of your 3-4 mile "easy" days an interval sprint day. Spend some time going faster than your 5k race pace so that you can get more efficient at higher speeds.

Leading up to the race? nothing, but the prior week I was tapped out on work hours so there may have been some latent fatigue from that, but from an exercise standpoint I was pretty tapered for this thing.
But in a normal week I usually have 2-3 sweet spot bike sessions (2-3 hrs) and during tri season I will have some swim sessions in there as well, though not nearly as much as I should.

- Pete

Luckily my over eating disorder is offset by my over exercising disorder

Re: Running Advice: My legs cant keep up with my lungs [jjabr] [ In reply to ]

Oct 22, 14 7:59

Post #10 of 40 (7958 views)

jjabr wrote:

Big Endian wrote:

1. What else do you do, training load wise?
2. If you only do (from the perspective of a 5k race) longer, easy runs, then your legs are going to be ill-prepared to go fast. Make at least one of your 3-4 mile "easy" days an interval sprint day. Spend some time going faster than your 5k race pace so that you can get more efficient at higher speeds.

Someone running this little does NOT need an "interval sprint day." Come on now.

So what is the minimum MPW that one should start working in an interval/sprint/speedwork day?
this was my theory that I was referring to, that I simply don't have the muscle experience of running fast to be able to sustain it, even though my cardio seems adequate to handle it.

- Pete

Luckily my over eating disorder is offset by my over exercising disorder

Re: Running Advice: My legs cant keep up with my lungs [Big Endian] [ In reply to ]

Oct 22, 14 8:01

Post #11 of 40 (7944 views)

Big Endian wrote:

Quote:

Someone running this little does NOT need an "interval sprint day." Come on now.

He's never actually "running", though - how are his legs supposed to know what to do, come race day? His description is 16 miles per week of "easy" and "30s/mile slower than 5k pace", and 2 hours of "easy".

Oh, I agree that it doesn't sound like he's running. At this level (25-30mpw), running more volume will improve one's 5k pace even if that person never goes at or below that 5k pace in training. Guaranteed. Running a 2 hour long run in this situation is crazy excessive. And this number of "easy" day is silly. But interval sprints are not the answer here. Run consistent steady paces for most runs, maybe an easy day once a week, a longish day (75-90 mins) once a week, and a day off. During one of those steady runs he can do some fartleks if he wants.

That, and I'm sure the OP is being generous with that training plan, like we all do, thinking about his best week and putting it on paper rather than really drilling down and being honest about the volume and consistency.

Re: Running Advice: My legs cant keep up with my lungs [Big-Pete] [ In reply to ]

Oct 22, 14 8:02

Post #12 of 40 (7931 views)

As others have noted, your run volume isn't particularly high from a pure running perspective, so if you're trying to focus on a running event then the first thing would be simply to run more. However, you may want to focus your added sessions specifically on higher speed form development. Find a track or a sports field and do some 100 meter sprint / 100 meter walk repeats, then start upping the sprint distance gradually. Over time you'll find that your 'easy' pace gets quicker.
If you've done high intensity riding so it feels like your legs turn to jelly - you should be able to do the same while running, and the way you train it is by going hard. Mix in some hill climb intervals (or do stairs at your local stadium).

Less is more.

Re: Running Advice: My legs cant keep up with my lungs [Big-Pete] [ In reply to ]

Oct 22, 14 8:05

Post #13 of 40 (7921 views)

Big-Pete wrote:

jjabr wrote:

Big Endian wrote:

1. What else do you do, training load wise?
2. If you only do (from the perspective of a 5k race) longer, easy runs, then your legs are going to be ill-prepared to go fast. Make at least one of your 3-4 mile "easy" days an interval sprint day. Spend some time going faster than your 5k race pace so that you can get more efficient at higher speeds.

Someone running this little does NOT need an "interval sprint day." Come on now.

So what is the minimum MPW that one should start working in an interval/sprint/speedwork day?
this was my theory that I was referring to, that I simply don't have the muscle experience of running fast to be able to sustain it, even though my cardio seems adequate to handle it.

Most I know don't really do general speedwork until they're hitting 50+mpw. Start hitting 50, you will improve with no speedwork. I went from a mid-18 5k to a mid-17 5k on volume increase alone and I know lots of people who do similar. Push a little on your runs, don't take so many easy days. Back off a little if you feel like you have an injury coming on. You will improve quickly, 100% guaranteed.

Re: Running Advice: My legs cant keep up with my lungs [Big-Pete] [ In reply to ]

Oct 22, 14 8:10

Post #14 of 40 (7900 views)

Intervals. sped work is icing on the cake. You need to make a cake first, before you put icing on it. You get most gains form volume first to build a base. The base will allow you to sharpen your speed.

You don't need to run at VO2max intensity to raise your VO2max. While you will increase it more effciently running at higher intensities, it will limit the overall work load you can do, risk injury, and you'll miss the benefits of running more miles. The adaptations gained from running easy, transfer in part to running faster. Throwing in some strides, allow you to practice the muscle memory of a faster stride length and turnover.

Training is about adaptation not practicing your race pace. This isn't basketball where you practice free throws to get better at free throws. Although if you limiter was muscle fatigue in terms of free throw accuracy late in the game, then you might work on you overall conditioning.

TrainingBible Coaching
http://www.trainingbible.com

Re: Running Advice: My legs cant keep up with my lungs [jjabr] [ In reply to ]

Oct 22, 14 8:12

Post #15 of 40 (7889 views)

jjabr wrote:

Big Endian wrote:

Quote:

Someone running this little does NOT need an "interval sprint day." Come on now.

He's never actually "running", though - how are his legs supposed to know what to do, come race day? His description is 16 miles per week of "easy" and "30s/mile slower than 5k pace", and 2 hours of "easy".

Oh, I agree that it doesn't sound like he's running. At this level (25-30mpw), running more volume will improve one's 5k pace even if that person never goes at or below that 5k pace in training. Guaranteed. Running a 2 hour long run in this situation is crazy excessive. And this number of "easy" day is silly. But interval sprints are not the answer here. Run consistent steady paces for most runs, maybe an easy day once a week, a longish day (75-90 mins) once a week, and a day off. During one of those steady runs he can do some fartleks if he wants.

That, and I'm sure the OP is being generous with that training plan, like we all do, thinking about his best week and putting it on paper rather than really drilling down and being honest about the volume and consistency.

Ha! A true ST characterization! Except, I tried to account for that being aware of that tendency so that weekly plan is probably conservative if anything.
i.e. this week:
Sun: 3 mile race
Mon: Tempo 8 miler, AM Swim ~2200 yds
Tues: easy 3 miles in the AM, 2 hr sweetspot bike in the PM
Wed: Tempo 7 today
Thur: run day off, 2 hr sweet spot bike
Fri: 15 mi easy (60 seconds less than HM pace)
Sat: 3 mi easy recovery, 2-3 hr sweet spot on the bike
So 39 miles / ~5.5 hrs for the run, ~6-7 bike hours, ~1 hrs in the pool
So a bunch of tempo, but no speed work.

- Pete

Luckily my over eating disorder is offset by my over exercising disorder

Re: Running Advice: My legs cant keep up with my lungs [Big-Pete] [ In reply to ]

Oct 22, 14 8:13

Post #16 of 40 (7886 views)

I'm new to the forum, but your goal to "lose weight and make sure I can run the distance needed for a triathlon" are really two different goals as opposed to one.

You'll lose more weight doing interval sprints and so forth which would help you when it comes to a 5k sprint.

But if you want to finish a triathlon, you need to be putting in more miles on the run that will help with weight loss (less efficient way), and will hurt your 5k time as you do LSR to build the endurance needed.

I would guess you would want to figure out what is truly your priority and then focus on improving your routine to get you to that goal and let the other secondary factors go for the time being.

Re: Running Advice: My legs cant keep up with my lungs [motoguy128] [ In reply to ]

Oct 22, 14 8:17

Post #17 of 40 (7869 views)

motoguy128 wrote:

Training is about adaptation not practicing your race pace. This isn't basketball where you practice free throws to get better at free throws.

Very true. Otherwise he could just go run a bunch of 400m intervals on the track at a 15 minute 5k pace to get the "15 minute 5k muscle memory" and then go out and belt out a 15 minute 5k. It doesn't work like that. I hate that stupid cake example people give, but it's true in that really volume is needed to build a strong base. Throw in some strides and fartleks, but I personally don't think they're strictly necessary, but they're fun for sure.

Re: Running Advice: My legs cant keep up with my lungs [Big-Pete] [ In reply to ]

Oct 22, 14 8:29

Post #18 of 40 (7827 views)

people generally have a low hanging fruit from just increasing volume without much intensity work until they hit 40mpw. Probably 35 at a minimum. There are exceptiopns but those usually people with a lot of "talent" and a well-developed engine from a lot of volume over the years (ie some used to run >40mpw regularly).

Re: Running Advice: My legs cant keep up with my lungs [denali2001] [ In reply to ]

Oct 22, 14 8:42

Post #19 of 40 (7791 views)

denali2001 wrote:

people generally have a low hanging fruit from just increasing volume without much intensity work until they hit 40mpw. Probably 35 at a minimum. There are exceptiopns but those usually people with a lot of "talent" and a well-developed engine from a lot of volume over the years (ie some used to run >40mpw regularly).

Thanks for this. Sounds like I'm on the cusp.
Maybe I'll up the distance a little on each run and then once I get accustomed to the new weekly mileage, I'll add in some actual track speedowrk. Until then, I'll try fartleks during some of my tempos.
Thanks everyone.

- Pete

Luckily my over eating disorder is offset by my over exercising disorder

Re: Running Advice: My legs cant keep up with my lungs [Big-Pete] [ In reply to ]

Oct 22, 14 9:30

Post #20 of 40 (7697 views)

"Mind you, my legs were not burning excessively (like they do on the bike when I am pushing the pace), or in pain, they just would not keep up the pace."

Physiological reasons aside, it sounds like maybe doing some intervals might help you to learn to tell your legs to shut up. Nothing like the back stretch of a 400 to do that.

Re: Running Advice: My legs cant keep up with my lungs [jjabr] [ In reply to ]

Oct 22, 14 9:59

Post #21 of 40 (7645 views)

jjabr wrote:

Sounds like you're just running 25-30 miles per week maybe? Just run more dude.

Why, I have never run more than that, ever, and seem to do okay.

.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Re: Running Advice: My legs cant keep up with my lungs [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]

Oct 22, 14 10:01

Post #22 of 40 (7635 views)

h2ofun wrote:

jjabr wrote:

Sounds like you're just running 25-30 miles per week maybe? Just run more dude.

Why, I have never run more than that, ever, and seem to do okay.

.

It's a solid amount of mileage, especially if it's kept consistent year-round and not a peak number.

Re: Running Advice: My legs cant keep up with my lungs [Staz] [ In reply to ]

Oct 22, 14 10:06

Post #23 of 40 (7622 views)

Staz wrote:

h2ofun wrote:

jjabr wrote:

Sounds like you're just running 25-30 miles per week maybe? Just run more dude.

Why, I have never run more than that, ever, and seem to do okay.

.

It's a solid amount of mileage, especially if it's kept consistent year-round and not a peak number.

YEP!!! run 25 miles a week, 52 weeks a year, with lots of hills. That will make most faster.

.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Re: Running Advice: My legs cant keep up with my lungs [kdw] [ In reply to ]

Oct 22, 14 10:55

Post #24 of 40 (7549 views)

kdw wrote:

"Mind you, my legs were not burning excessively (like they do on the bike when I am pushing the pace), or in pain, they just would not keep up the pace."

Physiological reasons aside, it sounds like maybe doing some intervals might help you to learn to tell your legs to shut up. Nothing like the back stretch of a 400 to do that.

I agree with this sentiment. Looking at your file, it seems that you ran a three-mile race without going much above your reported hour-threshold HR. You probably could have run much further at the same pace, or much faster for the same distance. In other words, it seems like aerobic fitness may not be your primary limiter at this point.
If your goal is to race faster at these distances (it may not be), I would incorporate at least some running at faster-than-goal paces.

Re: Running Advice: My legs cant keep up with my lungs [mjp202] [ In reply to ]

Oct 22, 14 12:12

Post #25 of 40 (7454 views)

mjp202 wrote:

kdw wrote:

"Mind you, my legs were not burning excessively (like they do on the bike when I am pushing the pace), or in pain, they just would not keep up the pace."

Physiological reasons aside, it sounds like maybe doing some intervals might help you to learn to tell your legs to shut up. Nothing like the back stretch of a 400 to do that.

I agree with this sentiment. Looking at your file, it seems that you ran a three-mile race without going much above your reported hour-threshold HR. You probably could have run much further at the same pace, or much faster for the same distance. In other words, it seems like aerobic fitness may not be your primary limiter at this point.
If your goal is to race faster at these distances (it may not be), I would incorporate at least some running at faster-than-goal paces.

Yes, good point.
My racing season begins and ends in May and is centered around improving triathlon performance.
My primary goal is to improve my overall half iron times, which I only race race from may to beginning of september. Because I focus on the Half Iron distance, I haven't even thought of doing speedwork.
My secondary goal is to carry that half iron fitness into half marathon season, targeting my A half marathon at the beginning of November. I like to race the shorter running stuff year round to keep it interesting
After my goal half marathon, my winter running goal is to keep that base mileage going through the winter, but work on improving the bike with solid trainer time.
My year finishes with road bike races in the spring before May, at which point I switch to the TT bike full time.

I am not targeting the shorter races, per se, but the dynamic between my adequate cardio and the inability for my legs to keep up certainly highlighted a potential weakness for me (and hence a big opportunity for low hanging fruit improvements).

- Pete

Luckily my over eating disorder is offset by my over exercising disorder

Last edited by: Big-Pete: Oct 22, 14 12:50

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