What did you do with overall volume?

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2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

If you want a good answer you'll need to give us a little more information than "my runs were getting slower in the same zone". Did you re-test your zones periodically to account for fitness improvements? How many mpw were you running? Did you do any harder intervals? Any pure speed work like strides, short sprints, ect? How much biking/swimming? How much intense biking and swimming? How much sleep, nutrition, stress, ect.?

What I'm getting at is: training is a system with a staggering amount of inputs-- without knowing the bigger picture it's impossible to say "running slow" did or didn't work for you.

since you have trained for an Ironman, I will assume you have learned quite a bit about what works best for you in training and racing. Why the need for "running slow to go fast"? Were you getting injured in training? Overdoing runs so that legs couldn't produce power on bike? "Running slow to go fast" is more of a running-specific training mechanism - ie. Long slow distance during a base phase. You already have the aerobic development through bike and swim training. In my experience, and given limited time with 2 other disciplines, each running workout needs to have a purpose. If you are running 8:30s in normal runs, you are not gaining much by running 9:40s for a long run and probably why it didn't work for you. The opposite could have occurred because it was causing more mental fatigue (boredom).

Run slow to go fast doesn't work on low volume.

It works, for almost everyone, assuming that they run a LOT.

A lot of slow running would be >45mpw for most people.

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"Don't you have to go be stupid somewhere else?"..."Not until 4!"

If you'r normal runs are in the 8:30 range, (I'm guessing that range as ~8:20-8:45?), and if you're running ~ 45-60min for your day in day out runs at that pace, why would you think you need to slow ~ :45 per mile for your long runs?

Would you consider your day in day out pace zone 1/2?

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Brian,
I had talked to you about coaching last year because of this but I thought I was to deep in the training to make the switch. You are HIRED next year when training gets underway! Actually I am gonna email you soon to get on a plan for some sprints in september.

When I started my 8:30 run were in z1 and 2 but cardiac drift would cause me to slow to keep in the zones. After my runs started going over an hour on the weekends I had to slow it way down as my hr would creep up over time.

Slowly my normal 45 minute runs were in z3 at an 8:30 pace.

I was running 3-4 times a week as anymore then that and my knee would hurt.

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Yellowfin Endurance Coaching and Bike Fits
USAT Level 1, USAC Level 3

If you are thinking of the polarized way of training the logic is to do most of your activity in zone 1, BUT you need to do intervals also. It is the combination of easy and hard that will create progress.

I never go under 150bpm unless it's 30+mi run.. In training I run intervals, short distance 10k ish, mid distance half mary ish, and a long 20-22mi some combination of these depending on what I feel like I need

So basically the long and slow is all to develop the engine and doing so while limiting your chance of injury. But speed comes from speed. So eventually you need to build the muscles up to cope with running fast. For those of us with a small running history, taking a few months to work on building up our engine isn't a bad thing (especially as we age). But you do have to keep checking your zones (either through field tests of BLTs). And after you get your weekly mileage built up, you need to start working in some speed sessions to get the speed back.

I use the Daniels programs to train by. I am quite amazed at how slow his slow paces are compared to your race paces. But his hard stuff is, well quite hard and fast. It is just short in comparison, so maybe 20% of your weekly total in all. But even he has a good 6 week slow build phase leading into each season, which I follow and have had good success with (2 seasons now with no significant injuries).

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Ian

Nah, I only run outside 28 miles a week at LSD.

But, these kinds of folks miss giving lots of data!

Are they over weight?

Are they running 12 months a year?

My experience is if you are wanting to run IM distance stuff, then the LSD runs should be 90 minutes in length, 3 days a week. And they need to have some nice long big hills always.

And yep, I believe powercranks on the trainer bike is a big help.

Race many sprint or olympic distance races to get that speed work.

Most folks say they do not understand why they have not gotten faster, but when you look at their overall training for many years, in most cases the answers are very clear. Not enough
training.

In my training I do about 10% speedwork on my treadmill during my bricks.

.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

hmmmmmmmmmmm doesn't 6/33 =18.2% speed work all done immediately after biking an hour so actually effectively way more intense than the 6:30 pace might imply.

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Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.

I run for about 300 minutes a week between my outside and treadmill bricks. I do about 10 minute 6:30 pace bricks on the treadmill after a 90 minutes bike trainer at 193 watts
with the powercranks, 3 days a week. So 30 minutes on the treadmill of the 300 total running is 10% speed work I believe. Normally does not feel that intense but yesterday
I was so tired off the bike I jumped off the treadmill after a minute. So I can overdue it also.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Yes, but all the time you spend with powercranks has to count for something in the way of running (I'm not opposed or supportive of powercranks, but they definitely seem to work for you).

If you figure you've got another 3-5hrs/week on powercranks, I'd bet that your total equivalent run mileage is a lot higher than you think.

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"Don't you have to go be stupid somewhere else?"..."Not until 4!"

A much more effective way of tracking this is through mileage (distance covered). Giving the amount of time doesn't take into account the different speeds you run. That 10% is at a speed 50% faster.

So 90min 3 days a week, 12 months a year is your recommendation for anyone doing an IM? Why? Please explain your recommendations a little more thoroughly.

I spend around 10 hours a week on the powercranks which yep, also help my running.

I do not believe there is a single magic thing I do but the collective grouping.

Train all year long.

Powercranks now 10 hours a week on the bike trainer.

I started swimming 6 to 7 days a week for the last 2 months for the first time in 6 years which I am hoping will also help my racing, and my running.

Staying Healthy!

Staying at race weight.

Race a number of short distance stuff go get speed work.

All the above is so simple and no need to pay a coach IMO. Now, I know lots of folks who need a coach to kick them in the butt to train. For these folks, I guess it
is a return on their investment, just glad I do not need this.

But when a person says run slow did not work for them, did not work what? Lets see their multi year training log.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

So you train probably twenty hours+ a week and wonder why you do well in your AG?

15 on average. Just looked, did 76 last month, ouch

I do not wonder since just about all the top people I know train like this.

.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I like to think about these in terms of the CP and W' model (http://www.trainingandracingwithapowermeter.com/...-critical-power.html).
The point to running slower is to allow yourself to run longer. So just slowing down does not help. Instead (as others have said here) when you slow down your long run, you need to run more miles/time than you were doing before. So if your pace is too fast and you can't run 90-120 minutes, then slow down so that you can. This is to build your aerobic capacity (CP).

5K pace is different very aerobic, but definitely using the anaerobic stores (W') if you're max'ing out for time. The LSD run does not develop much W' so you don't have the W' necessary for faster paces. Plus running mechanics are different at 5K pace than they are are IM pace. If you only run slow you don't learn to run fast. You'll only get faster by running faster. One of the famous run coaches, I can't remember which said to run all paces and all surfaces every week. I don't really think you have to hit all paces every week, but I like to hit them all at different phases of the year.

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Brian
“Eat and Drink, spin the legs and you’re going to effin push (today).” A Howe