I disagree. I think people like her, and Julie Miller (not a doper but a cheater), do it not so much for the competition but for the accolades they get within their local sphere of influence. That has been completely shattered for people like Holly and Julie. Nobody will ever look upon them with the reverence they once did so I think they'll just go away.

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

^^^ This

She will probably return to sport, but it would be something like CrossFit.

As I said, people do it for 2 reasons. Holly's accolades were really just temporarily making her big frog in little pond. She may have got some LBS discount, sponsorship or whatever, but mostly, she got the accolades as a winner, when in fact she is a loser (even before she was busted).

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TriDork

"Happiness is a myth. All you can hope for is to get laid once in a while, drunk once in a while and to eat chocolate every day"

I like this

on the other hand, whatever happened to getting on with life after doing your time ? pay your debt to society, so to speak, and be subjected to continued persecution ? seems a tad harsh ..... it's not like she committed a crime against anyone else.....

But she did. She stole someone else's moment of glory. That's irreplaceable.

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Trust me I’m a doctor!
Well, I have a PhD :-)

Agreed! she stole their glory, their potential to leverage a win for sponsorship in some form. She stole the cool podium photo from her mantelpiece.

I'm never going to be AG champion, but I sure would cherish a pic of me standing on top of the podium. Having a picture standing above "2" and having to explain to everyone that the winner cheated, just doesn't carry the same weight.

After doping and serving the suspension, the doper should prove (as much as possible) that they are clean. If the cheater isn't tested, there are too many questions. She's clearly good, but after the suspension, without testing, we never quite know if she's clean. Testing should be required in my book, but the costs of the testing shouldn't be born by the masses, but by the cheater.

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TriDork

"Happiness is a myth. All you can hope for is to get laid once in a while, drunk once in a while and to eat chocolate every day"

did she podium in the event in question ? if not, no moment of glory stolen. don't get me wrong here, i'm not an advocate of doping. if someone cheats and deprives someone else of a podium spot, a Kona slot, or prize money, then yeah, do the time. if not, then it's moot.

i have a hard time with the doping nazis that think every participant in a sanctioned event should be tested, at an event or via an OOC random (not saying you are one of those...). sorry, i think that's BS. first, the resources don't exist to do it. second, why should recreational participants be subject to the same scrutiny as those who race for gold (Kona slots, etc. ) i'm a BOPer who does tris for fun, as do most folks who participate (vs. race). is it reasonable that i be punished with a 2-year ban for testing positive for smoking a doob 3 days before an IM ? there are alot folks who would say yes.

Agreed. And Jane Seo (See Gerlach's post from Marathon Investigations) will go back to mud runs...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rugged_Maniac_New_York_City

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808 > NYC > PDX > YVR
2024 Races: Taupo

I wouldn't be so quick to assume that. Some cheaters have very strange motives. They may wanna come back and stick it to the same people who popped them 4 years ago, and in that obsession they could turn to cheating all over again to get away with it. What do they have to lose if they get caught again?

I like the OPs idea.

Ok I forgot about lifetime ban for 2nd offense, if that's in place they may be faced with that. But still. Cheaters do weird things

I like the idea. Her name is flagged in a database and should she wish to compete again, she'd have to pay for the tests. If this were in place and well known it would probably make the already low probability of return miniscule: If the shame doesn't deter you enough, the cost would.

I saw Kevin Moats in Kona in 2016 after his ban was over. Oh well.

Great idea. This might be more harsh, but I also don't see why these returning dopers can't be:
1) made to pay extra fees each event they're registering for with the extra funds going to anti-doping initiative
2) have to have some sort of indication that they are a past doper. A special "AWA"-like bib/swim cap/bike number or something like that, as well as an asterisk in their results.

How about branding them with a WADA tattoo on their forehead when they get their ban?

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TriDork

"Happiness is a myth. All you can hope for is to get laid once in a while, drunk once in a while and to eat chocolate every day"

Idk if you're being serious (if so, that's absolutely not warranted, what is wrong with you). But a small detail like having them wear this special stuff doesn't seem particularly harsh given the circumstances, and could be yet another factor that deters doping/returning.

I was kidding.
I don't think they should be tattoo'd for life, well, not on their forehead :-).
I think a red circle with a slash, to cover their M-dot tattoo might be appropriate? (half kidding on that one)
I don't think they should be scarred for life, but I think being on a database and being required to pay for their own drug test for every race, is reasonable.
I think after their ban, they should be allowed to race, but being required to do a drug test that they pay for themselves, coupled with a lifetime ban for a second offence would be fair and reasonable.

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TriDork

"Happiness is a myth. All you can hope for is to get laid once in a while, drunk once in a while and to eat chocolate every day"

Word.

The reason I'm thinking this additional identification/asterisk would be good, is if I finish behind a returning doper, I have the right to know, and I shouldn't have to research/internet stalk every single person. Obviously, I could remedy this by finishing 1st in every event, but somehow that doesn't seem realistic.

Returning dopers could have their own division for all I care:)

How about a "WADA" underneath their permanent marker race number on their calf and upper arm?

And a tick box on race entries. "Have you ever received a WADA doping suspension". If you have, but fail to declare, that's a second strike and a lifetime ban.

Most races I've done have a medication section already, so adding a WADA tick box would be easy enough to do.

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TriDork

"Happiness is a myth. All you can hope for is to get laid once in a while, drunk once in a while and to eat chocolate every day"

I agree that busted athletes should have a higher burden placed upon them when they come back into sport. I also think that they should have to work the registration table DURING their ban -- specifically for the category/age group they were in when they cheated.

"Here's your # and packet -- have a great race!"

Busted & banned athletes staying away from sport for the duration of their ban is certainly a nice thought.

Since you posed the original question, would it upset you to know this one is not waiting four years, but rather is racing again in a week? Yes, this is happening.

Would it trouble you to know that this one raced late in 2016, AFTER appeals were over but before all of us common folk learned of the ban?

Racing under a different name suggests to me that the athlete in question knows this is shady, and yet is doing it anyway. It also implies that they think others are too dumb to realize what is going on.

She's publicly stated she is ready for a fresh start, so that's probably all good. As long as SHE is ready, that is all that matters, right?

What do others think?

Herbert, when I saw the subject of this thread my first thought was Moats. He may have been in Kona in 2016, but he didn't race, wasn't quailified, hadn't done an IM since his ban.
His ban was over in early 2015. A quick look at AWA rankings shows that he has raced seven WTC 70.3 races beginning with the New Orleans 70.3 in the spring of 2015 ( I was there, raced in the same AG, was racked next to him). He won all seven races since his ban, including the 2015 70.3 WC.
FWIW, he DNSed at the 2015 70.3 Florida (would have been his first race back) and the 2015 ITU Age Group WC.
I'd like to know what the procedure is for future testing of Returning Offenders.

Oh my god. Seriously?

Like the Scarlet Letter or something?

You need to get some perspective. This is absurd.

Pay for their own dope control for any event they do? That's ridiculous. And really, what's the point? So the participation crowd can point their fingers and say "I didn't really get beaten, because they got busted before"? It's petty and small-minded. And basically boils down to blatant persecution.

And a second doping violation is a lifetime ban, is it not?

Ala helmet mirror?