I imagine a minimalist trail shoe on even a slightly technical trail to be a horrible accident waiting to happen.

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@floathammerholdon | @partners_in_tri

Not true at all! I VASTLY prefer minimalist shoes for trail running.

I have completely chronically torn all of the ligaments in my ankles from my younger basketball days ( MRI confirmed) so I have very lax, unstable ankles.

The minimalist shoes keep you close to the ground so it's hard to roll your ankle, and you can flex your foot over the surfaces AND use your ground sensation to even better get grips on the surfaces.

I actually would go so far as to say that the ONLY situation where I suspect a minimalist shoe would allow a runner to 'beat' a normal shoed equal abilitied runner in a race, is in a technical trail race, and the more technical, the bigger advantage for the minimalist runner!

Going minimalist for trail running has been one of the best things for me specifically because of my unstable ankles!

I just came of a year of almost exclusively running in Vibram Fivefingers (and occasionally Vivobarefoot.) I really liked running in them, much more than I thought I would. I am going to transition back to something a little more substantial I think. What shoes were you running in during your experiments?

I actually ran in Vibrams in a prior short-lived attempt at minimalist running. I liked them a lot, but they had to fit tight/snug, and thus got smelly.

My actual main critique of Vibram fivefingers now - they are actually almost NOT minimalist shoes!

The reason I say this? Ignore the funky toe look (which gives you almost no benefits at all as a runner), and try and roll up a fivefingers into a small ball. It's impossible, as the sole is so thick and strong. When you compare the ground feel of a fivefingers to that $10 water sock I use, there's no contest in how much more 'barefoot' the water sock feels.

I actually have a pair of work shoes from Vivobarefoot that I like a lot. It flexes a lot more easily and with the insole removed, is close to as minimalist as that water sock. I like them. I may end up buying a pair of the Vivobarefoots just for looks - the water socks I love running in are cheap, and unfortunately, also look cheap. Looks count, even for a 'barefoot' runner!

I have been wearing Vivobarefoots everyday for almost 2 years just as casual/work/everyday shoes. They are aesthetically pleasing and comfortable to boot! I don't love running in them, but I might try another pair of their running shoes. I think I will being running completely barefoot this summer, and also running in a minimalist-ish trainer (polarized training, right??) What i really need is zero drop dress shoes, because wearing shoes with even a small heal kills my back now...

Check out Lems, zero drop and classy

Will do. Cool name btw.

What do you wear in the winter in snow, on ice, in freezing water, etc?

I have a pair of target branded running shoes (I know, weird, but they are thin and pretty minimalist for a regular style shoe) and put screws in them for ice spikes. Work great with thick socks.

I used to run off road in New Balance minimalist trail shoes. No matter how careful I was, I always took an errant stone to the mid foot at some point, which was excruciating.

After the first time, you become really careful about foot placement but it still happened regularly enough to make things no fun at all.

Just as a counter point. I naturally run mid to fore foot. I'm 47 now and so it makes sense that the over use injuries I get are in my Achilles tendons. I have tried running in barefoot shoes but they aren't for me. Logically I don't need a shoe that encourages me forward and puts strain on the Achilles.

It seems to me that runners develop habits and the injuries we tend to suffer can be as a result of those habits. As I say I'm a for/mid foot runner naturally and the Achilles suffers. I've never had a knee problem. My guess is that runners that do have knee problems are landing too far back and the knee is taking more of the shock than it should. The shoes that work for me are maximal shoes. So I can land further back. So the shock is (in my mind) distributed more evenly around my legs rather than the Achilles taking more than it's fair share.

So my point is I don't think there is one type of shoe that is best. There is a shoe type that works best for an individual and there is probably also a shoe that is that individuals krytponite. Be careful out there.

Not quite a counter-point, but I've had a similar experience. I tried minimalist, I tried racing flats as daily wear. These days I prefer to run in "a shoe". Brooks' Launch is a current favourite of mine, a simple, no-nonsense running shoe with a decent amount of cushion. To be fair, I haven't given maximalist shoes a try yet - Hoka's new models definitely look to be worth a try.

I'm fairly efficient, fairly fast runner, and minimalist running was fun - for a while. However, as the distance and/or intensity started to climb, the drawbacks became too many. There's something to be said for being able to run an easy 20k Z1/2, shower, and feel fresh enough to go again. Can't do that with a shoe that doesn't help soak up some impact.

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ZONE3 - We Last Longer

Minimalist shoes do have their place and I like them. But on the rocky trails where I am running currently I need a little more padding for protection for the sole of my feet.

Happy to be zero or minimal drop, but then I choose a shoe with underfoot cushioning to suit the trail.

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Trust me I’m a doctor!
Well, I have a PhD :-)

Avoiding the rocks is most of the fun on minimalist trail runs! It did, however take me the full 6 months so far to get used to avoiding the rocks without much thought - the first few months, it was a shock to the system to be constantly scanning for rocks and debris that could hurt your foot. Now however, it's almost built-into my brain and I spend very little effort scrutinizing the trail. We're built to do it, but it does take training and acclimation over months (or more) so that it's more or less automatic, and not the brain drain you are describing (its a training process). Again, this is a brain/eyes thing, not a 'built up super calluses on my feet' thing. Once you do this without effort, trail runs are like 2x the fun - I love the feeling of the brain just automatically finding the best route and adapting the run to it - when you're doing this at speed on a fast technical downhill with no clomping, it's pretty clear how amazing this human ability is - a real joy to experience.

At first I thought I'd need thicker soled shoes to run my trails,but I've yet to find something that my cheap water socks with a 2mm sole that is super flexible, can't handle. Again, I run very differently in these than with normal trail shoes in terms of where I place my feet on the trail, and for sure, the first few months out, the pebbles and rocks were a real issue and annoyance (that goes away as you get better at it.)

Right now, I could easily run a 20k z2 run and be able to go hard the next day in my minimalist shoes. It just takes training to get the legs strong enough to do what you did in the maximalist shoes.

Even with this, I actually find the fact that maximalist shoes seem to allow runners to run 'farther than they should', a major drawback of cushiony shoes, which I learned the hard way.

I too gravitated at first exclusively to thick cushioned motion control shoes because they felt like they allowed me to really pump up the volume, as the legs felt less sore at first. I've however run 6 marathons in those maxi shoes, and half of them ended up with me being really overtrained. Turns out it's actually pretty easy to overdo the long runs or total volume to your detriment in those cushiony shoes if you are really pushing your margins. There's really no benefit in cranking out something like a 12 mile run if your body is really only ready for 8 mile runs of quality, but this is what triathletes (who often run well under 25mpw) do regularly, relying on crutches like these maximalist shoes to mask their leg training deficiencies.

With the minimalist shoes, this is much, much less a problem. Once the achilles/leg overfatigues, and you're heel stomping, the running stops. What the minimalist shoes have really demonstrated to me and forced me to do as I reacclimated, was to increase volume the RIGHT way when building up the minimalist run. Yup, I was forced to start at <10mpw, and build it up from there. It certainly wasn't easy - my achilles and calves were tired and mildly sore quite often, but the end result has been good - I run as fast now with a lot less volume than I did with the maximalist shoes, because the quality is better. It really is like being forced to do a BarryP buildup with no more than the 10% volume/wk prescription without cheating. Most new runners could hugely benefit from this sort of enforced discipline in their run buildups!

Running is hard. There is no free lunch - if your maxi shoes make the run easier now, you're paying for it at some point either with less strengthening of the body, or weightloading elsewhere that it might not be best for. I feel that it's a much better tradeoff to struggle early with small-scale niggles as you do with the minimalist acclimation process, than to kick the can down the road by relying on maxi shoes to complete hard run workouts or put up run volume that your legs probably shouldn't be doing. This becomes a really big issue once you are pushing your run volume limits (less so obviously if you're well under it.)

It's true that any 'branded' minimalist shoe, unfortunately costs as much, if not more than the built-up shoes - it's pretty crazy. Fortunately, the cheap chinese water shoes are $8-$20, and work great for training (and racing if you're so inclined). They are in my opinion, the best for training, as they are as close to barefoot as you can get while sparing your skin on pebbly trails and sharper asphalt surfaces. It's like lifting weights for your legs - you don't rely on the shoe for support, you strengthen your supporting muscles and train your stride to do it the RIGHT way, without relying on some shoe tech crutch.

I've been lucky so far I guess, no trail minimalist injuries. Sure, I've had a briefly sore foot from stepping on a rock unexpectedly on the trail,but these things are small things that didn't even limit training more that same day. Remember that this is coming from a guy with essentially no ankle ligaments (all torn, bilaterally, on MRI) and I've suffered multiple ankle sprains in the past on trails and this used to be my biggest fear of trail runs in maxi shoes (which REALLY set you up for an ankle roll due to the big stack). No worries at all though with the no-stack minimalist shoes. Haven't come close to an ankle sprain, even when plowing down angled grades at sub6min/mile!

I think this is crazy talk. If you want to run - fast and competitive - you need a proper shoe. Pronation control / structure is and has been shown to be more gimmick than necessary but cushioning is functional and necessary. No self respecting, competitive racer is running “minimalist” (except for drills, and track -which is itself a surrogate footbed). Today’s road racing flats (boost, vapors, Mach’s, go Mebs, etc etc are all approaching or exceeding racing flat weights with minimal uppers and the elimination of rubberized foot beds and prolific in their application by the fastest runners.
If your enjoying a leisurely trot or trail jaunt with time on your hand about where you put your feet, knock yourself out. Otherwise these booties will just make your feet and legs sore as hell and frustrate the crap out of you w.r.t running performance.

Totally disagree there. Plenty of fast minimalist/barefoot runners out there, including Olympic mens and womens running champions.

I guess I didn't mention one of the biggest lessons I learned from this 6 month process - the sore legs and frustration with acclimation is training. It makes you stronger, more resilient, and a more durable runner for the long term, because you can avoid those kick-the-can-down-the-road bigger injuries from overdoing it.

And I'll def slay the huge myth that barefoot runners are all 'leisure runners.' There's nothing about barefoot-minimalist that consigns you to running slow. Sure, if you're not acclimated and you try it in the first few months, you'll def be slower. But I'm as fast now as I am last year shoed, and I do intervals at sub-6 pace no problemo. I was pleased to also get beaten by 3 barefoot guys in a local 5k a few months ago who all went sub 18:30 - I thought I'd be the only minimalist runner there, but it seems the trend is picking up, as there were enough barefoot/minimalist folks there (now that I can recognize the minimalist shoes) that it totally wasn't remotely unique. You can google letsrun & barefoot for anecdotes of fast HS and collegiate minimalist/barefoot runners who are running like 15-16:xx 5ks or similar.

I'm not saying cushioning itself is the devil, but it's worth reconsidering training without the use of cushioning as a crutch (esp the maxi shoes) for the reasons I pointed out in earlier posts. The fact that you and quite a few others think the naturalist minimalist approach is crazy talk is more a testament to how effective shoe marketing is, coupled with the fact that minimalist running puts the hard parts of running up front early on, and doesn't get easy until you've put in the hard work of early acclimation. (The cushioned shoes make it easy up front thus have easier entry to running, but if you're not careful, you can get a lot of injuries down the road - hence the 50% run injury rate per year most studies show with runners which is shockingly high.)

If you want REAL crazy talk, let's talk about how much REAL SCIENCE all those pronation, neutral, cushioned, and all those other 'run shoe categories' is based on (answer = NONE) and how much science-driven data that 19 year old overenthusiastic shoe sale rep is using when they're analyzing your gait in the store and recommeind shoes toyou in scientific-sounding terms (also answer = NONE). Any scientist would be aghast at the utter, total BS of all this pseudoscience, yet this is the widely accepted norm for shoe purchase analysis and fitting across the country thanks to marketing, marketing, marketing. Now THAT is real crazy talk.

As someone who is new to the sport and wrestling right now with some pretty bad plantar F the thought is crossing my mind. Never had an issue then went nuts for a few months in some Hollas and have now been off running for weeks with super slow refief. A big part feels like it’s from tight calves not being supported by weak feet.

No, they're great on technical stuff. (I did a similar experiment). Really good control and feel. I had a much harder time with technical trail during my Hoka experiment. After both those experiments, however, I've reverted back to basically conventional shoes from a cushion standpoint. But I'm eagerly awaiting the next fad since I love experimenting.

Who’s in the top of the sport today that trains and ascribes to minimalist running shoes?

No top guy today. Thank shoe sponsors. It's also a false argument - just because Mr. World Champion wears X type shoe doesn't mean you can go faster by wearing it too.

Barefoot prior Olympian runners: Abebe Bikila, and Zola Budd. Yes, these were before the years of big time shoe sponsorships, and yes, BIkila went faster a few years later while shoed. If you want more evidence of fast barefoot runners, do as I did and google letsrun - there are some 15:xx-16:xx kids running barefoot or minimalist there writing about it.

ANd most importantly for me - I run just as fast in minimalist shoes than my maxi shoes, and hope I will go even faster in the near future with the minimalists!

So at this stage you point to the scientific evidence on your side. If the scientific community would be aghast at the conventional running industry what are you showing them that convinces them of the barefoot argument?

Personal opinion is that we don't have the evidence to draw any conclusions. My feedback is that this all reads as a unqualified endorsement of barefoot running for everyone. I doubt that is your position so I thought you might appreciate that perspective and maybe in following posts you could acknowledge what we don't know, barefoot limitations or people it isn't suitable for.