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Venge vs S5
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which bike should I buy? My beloved Cervelo SLC-SL is nearly the end of its life (8 years and 65,000 miles). Plan to slap 50/34 Super Record EPS on it....

would love any guidance from those in the know!

Randy Christofferson(http://www.rcmioga.blogspot.com

Insert Doubt. Erase Hope. Crush Dreams.
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Re: Venge vs S5 [rcmioga] [ In reply to ]
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Not one that you asked about but I just got a Boardman AiR 9.8 from Davis Wheelworks. Phenomenal bike-- and more comfortable than I anticipated and handles exceptionally well.
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Re: Venge vs S5 [rcmioga] [ In reply to ]
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I have an S5, and believe the S5 to be a bit more aero than the Venge, but really, even if you are using this to do fairly competitive bike racing, get the one that you just LIKE better.

Or, one or the other might present a fit problem, which would help you decide.

The boardman bikes are also excellent like Carl Spackler said (he is kind of a big deal, so worth listening to). If you need a lower stack bike, the boardman may work better than the S5. They just recently became officially available in the USA. Not sure what the Venge geometry is like

A review of the S5 features:
http://austintriathlonstore.blogspot.com/...d-bike-in-world.html

and the Boardman Air:
http://austintriathlonstore.blogspot.com/...tish-powerhouse.html



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: Venge vs S5 [Carl Spackler] [ In reply to ]
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Oh man, you went aero road.
The consequences will never be the same.

Of course its getting to be common now, even people that make fun of me are riding Scott Foils at least!

Carl Spackler wrote:
Not one that you asked about but I just got a Boardman AiR 9.8 from Davis Wheelworks. Phenomenal bike-- and more comfortable than I anticipated and handles exceptionally well.



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: Venge vs S5 [Carl Spackler] [ In reply to ]
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Carl Spackler wrote:
Not one that you asked about but I just got a Boardman AiR 9.8 from Davis Wheelworks. Phenomenal bike-- and more comfortable than I anticipated and handles exceptionally well.

I was wondering how you were liking the Boardman. Any crit work on it yet? The BMC TMR01 has been just OK for crits, great for road racing (in fact, had a stage race last weekend where they mandated mass start legal bikes only for a super short 4 mile TT and it was perfect there) ;-) I still prefer the handling of my old Wilier in a crit (that and the traditional brakes).

____________________________________
Fatigue is biochemical, not biomechanical.
- Andrew Coggan, PhD
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Re: Venge vs S5 [rcmioga] [ In reply to ]
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You want to checkout Velonews' Aero Revisited article. The S5 beat the Venge by 5W @ 30MPH, and the Venge didn't beat the S5 in any way I consider noteworthy.

The Litespeed won the overall, but only because their "scientific weighting" scheme does not use Slowtwitch-approved relative weights, e.g. where attaching a sack of anvils to your top-tube is preferable to losing 0.0001CdA, and where stiffness is only important for "victory celebration" and not your bottom bracket.
Last edited by: trail: May 22, 13 15:08
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Re: Venge vs S5 [rcmioga] [ In reply to ]
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I rode a Venge for 4 months and an S5 for 6 months so this is only a limited impression.

Aero: I couldn't tell. My average speeds were pretty close, given the same power. However, there's too many factors in play to say conclusively with my data.(from what I can recall anyways)

Comfort: I was never comfortable on the Venge. It seemed like I got pretty beat up on it, especially on anything beyond 30 miles. The S5 rode alot like my previous S3 and always felt fine(note: I said "fine" as it's definitely not the most comfortable bike in the world. I didn't expect it to be anyways)

Stiffness: Neither frame flexed when mashed on.

Looks: Venge wins, hands down. This is purely an individual taste though so take it for what it's worth.

Note: My fit on both was identical, so was the wheelset and saddle(I kept these when I switched bikes). In addition, I rode far less when I had both bikes(like 130-160 miles/week) so take what I said with that in mind.
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Re: Venge vs S5 [IzzyG] [ In reply to ]
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Agree on ride quality of the Venge, I thought it was terrible (went to an SL4 after riding a Venge for a couple of months).
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Re: Venge vs S5 [rcmioga] [ In reply to ]
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rcmioga wrote:
which bike should I buy? My beloved Cervelo SLC-SL is nearly the end of its life (8 years and 65,000 miles). Plan to slap 50/34 Super Record EPS on it....

would love any guidance from those in the know!

What do you want to do with it?

For my $$ the Venge is a better "overall road bike" with the attributes of stiffness, weight, aero, and comfort/compliance getting equal weighting - and so was the SLC-SL.
If you want to put more emphasis on one of those metrics; say aerodynamics, the S5 might be a better bike.

What do you hate about your SLC-SL?

-SD

https://www.kickstarter.com/...bike-for-the-new-era
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Re: Venge vs S5 [rcmioga] [ In reply to ]
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I'm surprised bobby11 hasn't chimed in here yet ;-)

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Venge vs S5 [Carl Spackler] [ In reply to ]
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Did you do the Echelon Gran Fondo and wear a Cytosport or Cytomax kit?

Tim, knowing that I like to ride obscure brands, has been talking to me about getting on a Boardman for a while now. How do you like it and do you have anything to compare it to?
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Re: Venge vs S5 [riotgear] [ In reply to ]
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Not me, I was on Diablo that day.

Here's the exact feedback I gave Joe and Sherpa (Tim)--
Ride quality is excellent, better than I expected for an aero frame. I'd put it between the TeamMachine, which is pretty comfy for a race bike, and the SL4, which is a little rougher but more responsive (that's more a nod to the exceptional comfort of the BMC versus others). I can see riding it all day with no problem and will report back after hopefully getting 4+ tomorrow including up Diablo. I rode it for two hours yesterday in really blustery conditions: handling is precise, steering predictable, and when out of the saddle the response is instant. It was pretty grabby in crosswinds although I can't say if that was entirely the conditions or partly due to the frame. Overall I give it two thumbs up. Super impressed and really happy with it.

Second ride was 4.5 hours with 7k of climbing; it goes up and downhill equally well. I've been fortunate to have a lot of nice bikes and am pretty indifferent to shiny new object syndrome. Have to say this is bike is my fav amongst all. Tim is spot on: go for it if you want something different but as good or better than the like.

@Rod: trying to minimize crits this year for obvious reasons. My impression of the handling is that it would be a good one.
[/img]
Pick I snapped before leaving dW2 last week. Just shy of 17 lbs with clunker 808 FC clinchers and SRM. Not a lightweight, and will be more reasonable with 404s/
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Re: Venge vs S5 [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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I own both and, I've gotta say, having these two steeds in the stable is a dream. I have to agree with SuperDave's assessment. The Venge is a bit lighter and, in my view, livelier. I've done many fast centuries on it and have had no comfort issues. The S5 hasn't been in the stable that long. I think its added weight and stiffness is noticeable ... But so is its speed. It's a damned fast bike on flat to gently-rolling terrain. It handles better than any bike I've ever ridden. I did one crazy-fast century on it about six weeks ago. I was looking around at folks who looked like they were on a death march and I was cruising and thinking, "this thing is like an unfair advantage. But at 75 miles, when I was one of a handful still at the pointy end of the "ride," we hit a big hill and it was all over. I really felt I was struggling to drag the thing up. At that point, though, I might have felt the same on the Venge. And I might not have hung in to that point on the Venge. Who knows.

It all comes down to what you want from the bike.

If you want pure riding fun, I also have an R5 vwd. Not an aero bike, but fabulous ride quality, very light and lively and still plenty fast.
Last edited by: bobby11: May 22, 13 18:04
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Re: Venge vs S5 [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
You want to checkout Velonews' Aero Revisited article. The S5 beat the Venge by 5W @ 30MPH, and the Venge didn't beat the S5 in any way I consider noteworthy.

The Litespeed won the overall, but only because their "scientific weighting" scheme does not use Slowtwitch-approved relative weights, e.g. where attaching a sack of anvils to your top-tube is preferable to losing 0.0001CdA, and where stiffness is only important for "victory celebration" and not your bottom bracket.


I almost bought the S5 to replace an old P2 since I wanted an aero road bike as my primary daily ride rather than a tri bike. But after I read that article in Velo News last winter, I checked out the Litespeed C1R and was sold in a second.

As Velo News put it: "It is very nearly as good as the best here and is still faster than any traditionally shaped frame, making it the undisputable winner for your wallet." And they didn't even test the C1R frame, which is made with a higher-end carbon so it's lighter and stiffer than the C1 frame.

I have about 2,000 miles on the my C1R since I had it built in January (with Reynolds carbon clinchers) and I still cannot believe how impressive it is. A friend of a guy in my cycling group has the (lesser model) C1 built up as a TT/tri bike that he's raved about. He rode it to a 10:30 finish at IMCDA (which included a mechanical failure) and is legitimately shooting for a Kona spot this year.
Last edited by: elburrito99: May 22, 13 22:05
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Re: Venge vs S5 [elburrito99] [ In reply to ]
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I have a S5 and love it.

Formely stef32
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Re: Venge vs S5 [rcmioga] [ In reply to ]
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Again, not on your list but I have clocked up 10k km on a Foil. In that time, most of the other early owners (all of whom are into racing) have moved to different frames. The major reason cited was a desire for increased ride comfort. Though I've not ridden a Venge, the feedback I've heard was that it too suffers issues with ride comfort. This really shouldn't come as a surprise and perhaps some people are learning firsthand what qualities they appreciate most in a frame.

A possible magnification of the problem is down to the choice of wheelset, tyre width and riding pressure. Rim depth isn't the whole story either, since I've found Fulcrum Zeros too much and Zipp alloy 303s and HED Jets better.

Between the Venge and the S5 and without an opportunity to test ride, I would choose the S5 and save my pennies for the VWD version.

As for stack height, so many people want the slammed stem look but lack the flexibility and core support. At least with an S5 and the tall front end, you will have fewer spacers and there is always the option of a -17º stem.

Though I'm happy to have a lighter bike, I'm unconvinced the weight differences systematically lead to getting dropped on climbs. I see a lot of MCippolini RB1000s at the pointy end of mountain stages and that is not a light frame.
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Re: Venge vs S5 [rcmioga] [ In reply to ]
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By the title it appears you're interested in an aero road bike, whatever your reasons consider your options.

Venge, S5, Boardman 9.4, Blue AC1, Scott Foil, BH G6, Felt AR, Giant Propel, Cipollini, Lightspeed C1, Ridley Noah, BMC TMR01, and I am sure there are more.

Personally, I would look for used BH G5.
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Re: Venge vs S5 [cerebis] [ In reply to ]
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+1 for S5. Mine has been awesome with a -17 stem to get low enough, ride quality is good but it's no R5. Handly is very snappy, the bike really does feel like it was made to go fast. Also feels very stiff, but I'm not bending any frames with the twigs attached to my hips so take that for what it's worth. And definitely better looking than the Venge

-------------
It never gets easier, you just go faster.
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Re: Venge vs S5 [rcmioga] [ In reply to ]
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thanks everyone...I'm overwhelmed with the response!

For the record I don't hate my SLC-SL, in fact love it...but just about everything else is worn out now (and by the way, I have replaced my chain and rings 5 times already).

My one complaint about the SLC is its flexiness....I know its a stiff bike but I have issues here when I crank it.

Anyways, looks like S5 for me. One factor is I am so old now I actually think the big head tube is a good thing...

I'll post pics when I get it....strange to buy a TM01 and a S5 in the same year but i guess I'm strange!

Randy Christofferson(http://www.rcmioga.blogspot.com

Insert Doubt. Erase Hope. Crush Dreams.
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Re: Venge vs S5 [cerebis] [ In reply to ]
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this is one of the best posts I've ever had the privilege to read!

Randy Christofferson(http://www.rcmioga.blogspot.com

Insert Doubt. Erase Hope. Crush Dreams.
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Re: Venge vs S5 [rcmioga] [ In reply to ]
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i haven't ridden the s5 (generally not a fan of cervelo aesthetics, so my decision is not based on performance--the giant HT is also a non-starter for me), but the sole reason i am writing is that i have significant time on the venge. it seems that many of the comments here are of the nature "i heard so-and-so thinks the venge is too stiff".

i had to order the venge before having a change to ride it. i'd spent a great deal of time on a tarmac sl2 and sl3, so i was't worried about the geometry, but all that i'd heard about how stiff and "harsh" (that harsh term was the one that kept coming up) made me a bit nervous.

i have raced (yes raced) the roubaix (SL and SL2), tarmac, and more recently the venge for distances up to 200 miles (9-10h, no time off the bike).

i also have a tarmac sl4.

i will say that the roubaix series is noticeably more comfortable over the long-haul, but the venge is on-par with the tarmac SL4 and less harsh than the SL3. a change of a few psi in a tire seems to make more of a difference on feel vs any differences in the frames.

for reference i am on the lighter side (~150#), pretty flexible (i'm one of those people who thinks HTs have gotten way too tall--i ride the venge with a slammed 140mm stem, and i've had to remove the "aero" dust cap in favor of one that sits 15mm lower), and prefer tire pressures in the 95-105psi range.

vs. the tarmac (which i also enjoy) i find the venge has some magic at 25mph. it just seems to come alive at those speeds. the tarmac, i find, has a slightly more lively feel at lower speeds (think steeper slopes). the frames are within 100g of one another for the same size. if you held me at gunpoint and made me give up one bike, i'd give away the tarmac (or any other bike i own or have owned in the past), and you'd have to pry the venge from my cold, dead fingers.

handling is great; i've raced many road races and crits with it. i routinely descend a mountain pass at speeds of 45-55mph (with heavy gusts) with no issues.

again, just want to offer this up so you can balance my n=1 with some other anecdotes about the venge.

i'd love to try a board man if the opportunity arose, particularly if it has a short HT.

good luck with your decision! i doubt you can go wrong.
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Re: Venge vs S5 [tetonrider] [ In reply to ]
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this is very helpful! thanks for your response. My wife has a Tarmac S-Works SL4 and Pete Reid used to be my coach so I am very Specialized.....

However, what i conclude is that I can get the top end S5 and get a really no compromise bike, and one that fits an old and not so flexible (but still very fast) guy....

I hope I'm right because I want to do this for at least another 7-8 years....thinking 65 might be the retire number....

Randy Christofferson(http://www.rcmioga.blogspot.com

Insert Doubt. Erase Hope. Crush Dreams.
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Re: Venge vs S5 [rcmioga] [ In reply to ]
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rcmioga wrote:
I'll post pics when I get it....strange to buy a TM01 and a S5 in the same year but i guess I'm strange!

Me too then - I got a TMR01 and a P5 a few months apart ... bit switched from your choices(s)
Nice to be "older" at times ;-)

____________________________________
Fatigue is biochemical, not biomechanical.
- Andrew Coggan, PhD
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Re: Venge vs S5 [rcmioga] [ In reply to ]
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Randy,

I've had both... I can't say one dominated over the other - but I was more comfortable on the S5 for sure - and i have them both set up with essentially the same fit numbers.

A lot of people say the Venge is to "harsh" - but ultimately I've been able to do 3 to 3.5 hour rides on it without major issues... I will say when comparing the two I found the S5 way more comfortable climbing but the front end on the Venge seem stiffer to me and definitely was more comfortable (and faster for me) descending.

If you want a road racing and crit bike - I would get the Venge... but if you want a bike you can ride through the mountains all day long I'd go for the S5... (although to be honest for an all day riding bike I'd get an R3 or an R5...).

.ian
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Re: Venge vs S5 [rcmioga] [ In reply to ]
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We've dealt with a number of the aero road bikes over the years, so I'll offer up some thoughts on the ones we are familiar with.

S5 - Although Cervelo clearly does not have that niche feel that it did years ago, you still do get that feeling of belonging to a members only club once you own one. That said, in terms of the "complete package", I think the S5 is tough to beat. For aero road bikes, if you look at whatever test from whichever group…you'll always find the S5 as a top contender. I remember Phil White saying something to effect of, "Our goal is to be #2 in all of our competitor's tests". The only knocks we hear about the S5 sometimes are that it can tend to stand up in high speed corners and that it's ride quality is slightly rough. Honestly, we rarely hear these complaints.

Felt AR - We wish we had better things to say about the current generation AR, because Jim Felt is hands down our favorite guy in the bike industry. Incredibly smart, innovative, loyal to his athletes - extremely undervalued in the industry as a whole. But….the current AR just doesn't make the cut. It's flexy to a fault. This simply kills the handling attributes and makes an already portly bike feel even more sluggish. We do like the stack height of the 54cm on up. The small sizes though, are just not viable.

BMC TMR01 - Interesting bike. The first one we built up was Laura Bennett's for London last year, and we were a bit dubious of the brakes. Have to say though, the brakes are very strong and easy to adjust. The in-line Shimano quick release for the brakes is just plain goofy though, so we really sell this bike as one that you need to use with current generation wide wheels. You want to train wide/race wide (with regards to wheels) because going in and adjusting the brake throw for different rim widths is simply not realistic for most people. Hell, we are pretty decent mechanics and we don't want to do it. The TMR01 is the stiffest (feeling) aero road bike in our estimation. It really jumps under acceleration and feels like a much lighter bike. Handling is not quite as nimble as the SLR01, but approaching. That puts it in very good company. Value wise - the TMR01 kind of sucks this year. We feel like sales hurt because the steep price. There is no doubt that this bike is cutting edge, but we would like to be able to put it under more riders. Out of all the bikes we mention, the TMR01 is the one that will likely have the most frequent shop visits. Although the brakes are not difficult, they are just different enough for many people to warrant more frequent attention.

Boardman AiR 9.8 - Full disclosure here - I'm a Boardman fanboy and have been trying to get the brand here in the US for several years. I work the ITU circuit, and will admit to having many pictures on my phone of the Brownlee's AiR's over the years. Having said that, the AiR intrigues me. I obviously don't know exactly where it stacks up aerodynamically among the other contenders. The general consensus is somewhere near the S3 range. We compare it to the S5 because again, the S5 is simply the gold standard. Ride quality is definitely quieter on the AiR as opposed to the S5 - centuries & such would be quite comfortable (in terms of dampening…not thinking fit right now). The bike "feels" lighter than it is too, suggesting that it has very good power transfer. Out of the saddle especially, the bike climbs more like an R5/SL4/SLR01. Maybe due to TT/DT shape resisting torsion better? Not sure why, but we're not complaining. Similarly, the bike descends and corners very sharply. Carl - you can answer this better than myself - but I feel like handling is actually very similar to the SLR01 (which I consider to be a top notch handling bike). The knock on the AiR is going to be fit geometry. Because it is outside the box these days (long/low), it's going to be a relative binary decision for most whether it fits or not…no real grey area. Value wise, we put the AiR 9.8 at the top of the list. At $2200 for the AiR 9.8 frameset, that is far more affordable than the top offerings from the other contenders. We've been building this frame up with awesome kits at prices we just can't approach with the other companies.

Specialized Venge - We are not a Specialized dealer these days, but being in NorCal (i.e. Specialized country) we see lots of the Big S on the road. Having said that - I feel like we do not see much of the Venge - it's predominantly Tarmac around these parts. From Cal Giant to the Specialized Masters Team to countless shop teams and clubs, there are lots of talented riders on these bikes. Carl, I'll call on you again - what's your Venge feedback from yourself and/or teammates over the years?

To the OP - this is Slowtwitch after all - so I am assuming you are pretty up to speed on what kind of geometry you need. One of the biggest drivers for you is going to be stack height. The difference between a "high" bike such as the S5 and a "low" bike such as the Boardman is not nominal. Although you may be able to get both bikes "to work", one likely fits your dimensions better than the other. The other bikes mentioned in this thread tend to fall somewhere in between these two bookends with regard to stack.

The other intangible that people don't like to talk about….get a bike that excites you. You need to want to ride it…to do big hours and hard miles on it. The bike that you are going to be fastest on is the bike that you get out and train on the most and most efficiently. Some of us can put all that aside and truly get the highest performance bike. Many of us though need the little extra motivation of a bike that really calls to us. For me these days, that bike is Boardman AiR, partly because of the performance, partly because of the heritage, partly because of the company being vested in triathlon.



Joe Santos


Joe Santos

Davis Wheelworks | dW² Facebook | dW² Twitter

BMC | Boardman | Cervélo | Felt | Lapierre | Atomic High Performance | ENVE | HED. | SRM | Stages | Zipp
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