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New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr
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Wahoo Fitness announced a new electronic trainer at interbike.

It's cog based like the Lemond Revolution. It's very quiet and has wireless data transmission on ANT+ and Bluetooth Smart.

It folds up small for travel and plugs into a 12v car cigarette lighter.

It also has a great road feel because it has a super heavy fly wheel to go with its electronic brake.

It has an open API so developers can code for it; you can put it in Slope or ERG mode while training.

Trainerroad and Kino map are two apps that support it right now; more are coming.

It's called the Wahoo Kickr and will be available this fall. Price will be announced at interbike. I'm in the wahoo booth so I'll try to answer any questions people have.

Here's a video with Mike from Wahoo talking about it: http://www.youtube.com/...youtube_gdata_player

CEO at TrainerRoad
Co-host of the Ask a Cycling Coach Podcast
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Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [Nate Pearson] [ In reply to ]
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Interesting...

DC Rainmaker has already had a look at it:
http://www.dcrainmaker.com/...o-fitness-kickr.html

Looks really promising! I like how TR can control the resistance.

Travis Rassat
Vector Cycle Works
Noblesville, IN
BikeFit Instructor | FMS | F.I.S.T. | IBFI
Toughman Triathlon Series Ambassador
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Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [Travis R] [ In reply to ]
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cant wait for this to come out. do you know if it will be available in Europe and if so when??

http://longwaytogo-ironman.blogspot.com/
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Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [Nate Pearson] [ In reply to ]
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Could very well be a CompuTrainer Killer.

Something tells me the slow release of RaceMate One as well as selling it to older users may be the nail in their coffin, especially if out of the box this is fully Ant capable and you can pretty much integrate your GPS or mapped courses
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Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [johanandbex] [ In reply to ]
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Mike from wahoo is going to chime in soon about that...

CEO at TrainerRoad
Co-host of the Ask a Cycling Coach Podcast
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Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [Nate Pearson] [ In reply to ]
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Mike from Wahoo here. I am at Eurobike with the guys from TrainerRoad (and the rest of the bike industry ). I will do my best to answer any questions that you guys have about the KICKR at night. But I will answer every question that you all ask.

It's a pretty cool product an we've put a ton of thought into it. I can't wait to get folks riding on them!

In the meantime - read dcrainmaker's review. Yes - it is super quiet!

___________
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Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [Nate Pearson] [ In reply to ]
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Awesome. I want I want I want!
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Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [mike@wahoo] [ In reply to ]
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I love the open API. No more hacking or code of questionable legality to make games or racing apps with a powermeter! I also love the hints of "cheaper than a computrainer"

I noticed in dcrainmaker's review it mentions kinomap having multiplayer - is that full-on bike racing, with drafting simulated, or is it just head-to-head training?

STAC Zero Trainer - Zero noise, zero tire contact, zero moving parts. Suffer in Silence starting fall 2016
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Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [Nate Pearson] [ In reply to ]
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Very cool. I may have to swap my Powerbeam Pro for one of these. I know you guys have done everything you can to support the PBP trainers, but I really hate not being able to control the trainer from TrainerRoad.

One question...how much is "significantly lower" than CompuTrainer pricing?
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Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [mike@wahoo] [ In reply to ]
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My biggest wants/desires

1) Feel - You really are never going to be able to simulate descents unless you add power to the rear, i.e.even free spin can be too light, but that is not as important to me as climbing. The real limitation to me on the Computrainer system are grades above 9%... for me especially when I get above 12, there is so much resistance at the rear wheel, it either slips, or you have to crank down a little harder. A cassette based flywheel mount obviously should remove the tire friction issue, so as long as the climbing is smoother and more realistic, then that is a huge win.

2) Integration with Google Maps, MapMyRide, GarminConnect, et al. - I don't care so much for fancy graphics, never really liked the "silver man" but want to quickly and easily be able to take a course or race that I have rode and be able to train on it. I think especially when you have somewhat reliable GPS or altimeter data, to be able to select a workout from the past I did on my bike and then be able to train on that same course and get a close proximity to the same feel, that is huge. Some of the Computrainer .3dc courses are close, but the process of creating my own has often been more of a chore than it should be, and I generally have to do a lot of manual work to really smooth things out.

3) Better editing / creation tools. Sort of piggybacking on #2, I would like to be able to take a course I rode and improve it.
-- a) Ability to add repeats - Would be nice to highlight a section of hill and approximate descent and then multiply it within a course and turn it into sections of hill repeats
-- b) Smarter smoothing - Most live courses get eratic data and the smoothing logic tends to flatten the hills. It would be nice to select a hill and smooth it based on either an average grade that is consistent, or apply several other profiles like rollers, table tops, or increasing grade to improve the workout. This would allow for reducing some hills for lighter rides, or really jacking it up during the meat of training.
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Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [Nate Pearson] [ In reply to ]
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Sorry for repeat question (from facebook) -- so the resistance is adjusted by whatever is going on inside the trainer (and controlled for by Trainerroad eg) or do we have to change gears manually on the bike -- probably the latter, but just want to make sure. Thanks.
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Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [dockt] [ In reply to ]
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You have a choice. The default for trainerroad will be Erg mode where the trainer will hold a certain resistance no matter your speed/cadence.

CEO at TrainerRoad
Co-host of the Ask a Cycling Coach Podcast
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Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [Nate Pearson] [ In reply to ]
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Definitely has the potential to be a huge game changer in the trainer industry... if the price is right.
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Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [tgarson] [ In reply to ]
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What would be a good price? I don't know the price btw; but I'm curious what you think.

CEO at TrainerRoad
Co-host of the Ask a Cycling Coach Podcast
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Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [Nate Pearson] [ In reply to ]
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Very cool, one of these would make the Michigan winter a little more fun. I'm hoping for a price in the $1k to $1200 range. I held off on buying a CT in hopes something like this would come out. CT seems about as advanced as a Commodor 64.
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Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [Dt34] [ In reply to ]
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$600-$800


http://www.clevetriclub.com

rob reddy
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Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [Nate Pearson] [ In reply to ]
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1000$ price range, if it is even less that would be amazing

Ewan

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Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [Nate Pearson] [ In reply to ]
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Below 1000$ it will be a killer if it has similar computrainer's features with up-to-date performance!
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Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [mike@wahoo] [ In reply to ]
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mike@wahoo wrote:
Mike from Wahoo here. I am at Eurobike with the guys from TrainerRoad (and the rest of the bike industry ). I will do my best to answer any questions that you guys have about the KICKR at night. But I will answer every question that you all ask.

It's a pretty cool product an we've put a ton of thought into it. I can't wait to get folks riding on them!

In the meantime - read dcrainmaker's review. Yes - it is super quiet!

Hi Mike, I asked you and Ray this question on Twitter and I'm not sure if we're talking about the same thing...so, here it goes: What's the inertia of the flywheel? In other words, what mass of rider (translating linearly down the road) does the rotational kinetic energy of the flywheel represent?

The answer you gave on twitter was that the "inertia is engineered for 175 pound rider (at max resistance) riding up a 15% grade." My confusion with that answer is that the KE of the flywheel is merely a function of the rear "wheel speed" (i.e. the rotational velocity), not the load. I can understand that the max load could represent a 175lb rider going up a 15% grade, but that's independent of the KE...know what I mean? My suspicion is that your answer was referring to the load capability and not the system inertia.

For example, by my figuring, the "equivalent mass" of the LeMond Revolution is a bike+rider mass of ~43kg (http://www.wattagetraining.com/...ic.php?f=2&t=335) This is a function of the rotational inertia of the flywheel rotating at an 8:1 ratio with the rear cassette rotation rate.

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [Nate Pearson] [ In reply to ]
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My opinion is that the smart price would be just under $1,000.

I base that off of a few points of data, obviously we have the higher end but non-computerized trainers falling in the few hundred dollar range, but less than $500. At or around $500 we start to have the LeMond become available, and a brief check shows you should be able to find LeMond + PowerPilot for under $1000.

Under $1000 we also have the Tacx offerings like the Bushido, and around a $1000 we have some of the PowerBeam offerings. Now, my fear that the pricing will be >1000 because of course we have the CompuTrainer sitting at $1500 and clearly that is a price that people have demonstrated they are willing to pay.

However, I could potentially use the same argument about the CT as the SRM. Some people have demonstrated a willingness to still pay a premium for the SRM despite cheaper options being available, simply based on the history and reputation of the product. Along similar lines, people may be willing to pay $1500 for a CT simply because it is such an established product.

I would argue that newer products that have launched at price points above $1000 have not historically had much success, I don't know how many power-equipped trainers CycleOps sells for example, however in my n=1 study, I don't know anyone who actually owns one, while I know of a few LeMonds and plenty of CTs.

So, to summarize my take, I suppose I’d say that under a grand, it’s a no brainer decision for a consumer to go with the Kickr over a CompuTrainer. Beyond that, you start to run the risk where consumers are may favor the established brand and product based off of a perception of reputation and reliability.

Now, personally, I’d argue that the CompuTrainer is an antiquated dinosaur that should have been killed off by a more technically advanced competitor a decade ago, but I don’t think all consumers are Engineers and necessarily share my sentiments.
Last edited by: tgarson: Aug 30, 12 13:42
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Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Hi Tom,


I think the answer you received was an inadvertent mixing of a few numbers I have been throwing around at the show. Our flywheel actually weights in at around 6kgs with a rotational inertia of the system of around 0.32 kg*m^2. Based on your energy analysis that would put it at an equivalent bike/rider of about 24kg. We also have a 6 pole electromagnet brake that can deliver 8Nm of torque. We can add in brake torque dynamically to make up for the delta between real bike/rider weight and flywheel Inertia. This allows us to provide a feel that is about as close as you can get to going outside and riding without requiring a really massive flywheel.


thanks,


Chip@Wahoo
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Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [chippyhawkeye] [ In reply to ]
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Now, the second loaded question.... when can I buy one??
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Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [tgarson] [ In reply to ]
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tgarson wrote:
Now, the second loaded question.... when can I buy one??

Please, don't answer "fall", try to be more precise, if you can...
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Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Tom A. wrote:
For example, by my figuring, the "equivalent mass" of the LeMond Revolution is a bike+rider mass of ~43kg (http://www.wattagetraining.com/...ic.php?f=2&t=335) This is a function of the rotational inertia of the flywheel rotating at an 8:1 ratio with the rear cassette rotation rate.

It'd be interesting to see a comparison table of equivalent inertial mass of trainers. Or, like for the Revolution, the virtual Crr and CdA.
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Re: New electronic trainer at Eurobike - Wahoo Kickr [Nate Pearson] [ In reply to ]
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It looks like a Lemond killer too. Very very nice!
SteveMc
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