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Cadence, power and HR in sweetspot - Riddle me this
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So I'm doing 15 min intervals at 85% of FTP, maintaining the same power 220 at a cadence of 86 my HR is 141, at a cadence of 92-93 its 151

Is there any material benefit or cost to completing the interval at one cadence versus the other? which brings me on to if I were racing should I choose one over the other for a race distance (obviously % of FTP would be lower)
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Re: Cadence, power and HR in sweetspot - Riddle me this [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
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The difference will be in efficiency, since your aerobic system is working harder at the higher cadence for the same output. I find this and so tend to let the cadence sort itself out and don't target any particular range. From the reading I've done, self selected cadence seems to be the most efficient. I've no idea whether training deliberately at a higher cadence would be of any benefit.
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Re: Cadence, power and HR in sweetspot - Riddle me this [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
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Andrewmc wrote:
So I'm doing 15 min intervals at 85% of FTP, maintaining the same power 220 at a cadence of 86 my HR is 141, at a cadence of 92-93 its 151

Is there any material benefit or cost to completing the interval at one cadence versus the other? which brings me on to if I were racing should I choose one over the other for a race distance (obviously % of FTP would be lower)
Something seems wrong with those numbers. That's an enormous difference in HR for a small change in cadence. Did you change cadence during an interval or did you do the first at low cadence and the second at higher cadence?
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Re: Cadence, power and HR in sweetspot - Riddle me this [gregf83] [ In reply to ]
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FWIW I've observed a similar HR delta over a slightly wider cadence range: 85-105. I fiddled with this quite a bit last year on my Computrainer. N = ~10 sessions of 2x20.
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Re: Cadence, power and HR in sweetspot - Riddle me this [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
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read the thread on the amateur hour on track and the related story link. comes up in there
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Re: Cadence, power and HR in sweetspot - Riddle me this [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
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Andrewmc wrote:
So I'm doing 15 min intervals at 85% of FTP

Why?
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Re: Cadence, power and HR in sweetspot - Riddle me this [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]
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GreenPlease wrote:
FWIW I've observed a similar HR delta over a slightly wider cadence range: 85-105. I fiddled with this quite a bit last year on my Computrainer. N = ~10 sessions of 2x20.
A 24% increase in cadence is more understandable than an 8% increase.
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Re: Cadence, power and HR in sweetspot - Riddle me this [Nick B] [ In reply to ]
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why not? what would you suggest
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Re: Cadence, power and HR in sweetspot - Riddle me this [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
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Andrewmc wrote:
why not? what would you suggest

Training between ~85%& ~115% of FTP is the most costly from a recovery point of view. You can do shorter intervals at higher intensity or longer intervals at lower intensity more often. You may not be training at volumes where this matters much, but as volume gets higher and higher, this becomes more and more a factor.
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Re: Cadence, power and HR in sweetspot - Riddle me this [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
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when you ride with higher cadence, you put more pressure on your heart rather than muscle, so your body will need more oxygen. Just like driving a car at 50mph, using 3000 rpm will cost more fuel than 2000.
everyone should have his/her most efficient cadence range, to find it, do some one hour 95-100% ftp workout, at some different cadence range(Use your most favorite cadence, for instance 90+-2, that would be 86-88-90-92-94) find at what exact cadence you have the max power output and a relatively low HR. :)
Last edited by: wzlsimon: Nov 21, 15 20:04
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Re: Cadence, power and HR in sweetspot - Riddle me this [matthansontri] [ In reply to ]
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Hmmmm, so this has been discussed a lot on here. to increase ftp intervals between 83 and 95% FTP are best and high enough to push it up, low enough to allow recovery.

At present I'm riding 5-7 days / week with a TSS of 35-45 each ride - I am time constrained, so it is what it is, getting on the bike and banging out 30-45 minutes is currently doable. It would be interesting to know how significantly different changing the long interval to a minute on minute off (as an example) VO2 workout would be - this was suggested the other day

I may once I get away at the end of this week look at changing things up
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Re: Cadence, power and HR in sweetspot - Riddle me this [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
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Andrewmc wrote:
Hmmmm, so this has been discussed a lot on here. to increase ftp intervals between 83 and 95% FTP are best and high enough to push it up, low enough to allow recovery.

At present I'm riding 5-7 days / week with a TSS of 35-45 each ride - I am time constrained, so it is what it is, getting on the bike and banging out 30-45 minutes is currently doable. It would be interesting to know how significantly different changing the long interval to a minute on minute off (as an example) VO2 workout would be - this was suggested the other day

I may once I get away at the end of this week look at changing things up

It appears that Matt is advocating a polarized approach to training i.e. something along the lines of what Stephen Seiler would advocate. After reading extensively about the polarized method I've personally undertaken 3 separate 8 weeks blocks of this strategy but saw poor results. I actually regress in fitness compared to the state I'm in before initiating one of these blocks. For some reason my body responds very well to 3 X 20 @ 90 to 95% IF as much as 7 days per week and poorly to doing 20% of my sessions harder and 80% easy.

YMMV,

Hugh


Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.
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Re: Cadence, power and HR in sweetspot - Riddle me this [Nick B] [ In reply to ]
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Because he needs somebody who knows what they are doing to tell him he is wasting his time.
85% of FTP is continuous long distance riding territory.
Why you would need a rest after 15mins is beyond comedy.
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Re: Cadence, power and HR in sweetspot - Riddle me this [lyrrad] [ In reply to ]
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http://www.google.com.qa/...7T9siN7Vn6U3QsQjkeEA

You work at ringling brothers don't you, I've seen you with the red nose and funny shoes......

Unless you have written a more definitive text, I am pretty sure that Coggan and Allen have found value in intervals between 83-95% of ftp - #clown
Last edited by: Andrewmc: Nov 22, 15 4:14
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Re: Cadence, power and HR in sweetspot - Riddle me this [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
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Andrewmc wrote:
http://www.google.com.qa/...7T9siN7Vn6U3QsQjkeEA

You work at ringling brothers don't you, I've seen you with the red nose and funny shoes......

Unless you have written a more definitive text, I am pretty sure that Coggan and Allen have found value in intervals between 83-95% of ftp - #clown

By your own link, 'Efforts in this power zone can be maintained for durations between two and a half and eight hours.'

Exactly why would you need a rest after 15 minutes?
Yes it's a good place to spend some time training in, but not intervals.

2.5 to 8 hours, sounds suspiciously like exactly what I said......
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Re: Cadence, power and HR in sweetspot - Riddle me this [lyrrad] [ In reply to ]
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Apparently your reading comprehension needs some work

"To perform a sweet spot interval workout, you should ride for twenty minutes at 88-92% of your FTP. Try to perform two of these intervals with at least five minutes of recovery between intervals. When you can complete two twenty-minute sweet spot intervals in a workout relatively easily, you should add a third. Dr. Coggan created the following chart that graphically shows how the sweet spot can improve threshold while limiting physiological strain to an optimal level (credit goes to Dr. Andy Coggan for the diagram)."

Setting aside your reading ability, I think it was pointed out earlier that sustaining training loads of long intervals at high percentages of ftp can impact recovery, so clearly I don't suppose many people are doing 2-8 hours at 85% of ftp but thanks for playing anyway
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Re: Cadence, power and HR in sweetspot - Riddle me this [sciguy] [ In reply to ]
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In my experience (kona Q and top age grouper), polarized training only works well if you have major volume. Ie. You are riding 500+km a week, running 100km and swimming 20km, etc

For most people, I would recommend one V02 max workout (115%+), 1 upper sweet spot to threshold workout (95-105%), and one or two long endurance rides at conversation pace. Combine this with a run after each ride and you are being very time efficient.
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Re: Cadence, power and HR in sweetspot - Riddle me this [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
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To answer the original question.... you need to look at why your HR increases with cadence. One very likely reason, is that to spin faster but stay smooth, your "spinning circles". Which in reality is often less efficient because your trying to use less developed smaller muscles like hip flexors and hamstrings, rather then your prime movers, quads and glutes. The 2nd killer, is that as a triathletes, your need your hip flexors and hamstring for run economy. Spinning "circles", for triathletes is even worse than for cyclists.

aIf 86 RPM feels more comfortable to sustain that intensity, ride there. For most, as power increases, so does cadence. For example At IM pace, I'll spin around 90RPM, at Zone 3, 95RPM, at or above threshold 100-105. But climbing, I'll happily mash 70-85RPM sitting up.... why? because I train that was and it feels comfortable. But every person is different. Ride more, at you find your own system. But don't artificially force anything.


TrainingBible Coaching
http://www.trainingbible.com
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Re: Cadence, power and HR in sweetspot - Riddle me this [lyrrad] [ In reply to ]
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lyrrad wrote:
Exactly why would you need a rest after 15 minutes?
Yes it's a good place to spend some time training in, but not intervals.


This
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Re: Cadence, power and HR in sweetspot - Riddle me this [Nick B] [ In reply to ]
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coggan and allen can't have got the memo that you two are the experts on increasing ftp. what was your book on the subject called
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Re: Cadence, power and HR in sweetspot - Riddle me this [Nick B] [ In reply to ]
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http://forum.slowtwitch.com/..._reply;so=ASC;mh=25;

post 2 then post by coggan

refute them both
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Re: Cadence, power and HR in sweetspot - Riddle me this [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
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Andrewmc wrote:
coggan and allen can't have got the memo that you two are the experts on increasing ftp. what was your book on the subject called

That means a lot coming from the dude doing 15min intervals at 85% ftp.
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Re: Cadence, power and HR in sweetspot - Riddle me this [Nick B] [ In reply to ]
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Are you in grade school? Doing the intervals that many recommend as an effective way of increasing ftp. Period, it's true whether you believe it or not in the same way the earth it round even if you're a member of the flat earth society

This is awesome, you come on and offer dvice which wasn't requested, demonstrate you have a reading age slightly lower than my two year old daughters and then attempt to insult me by suggesting that good practice as proposed by the bloke that actually wrote the definitive text on a subject actually isn't.

So from this we learn that you consider yourself more of an expert than Andrew Coggan without actually offering any substantive evidence to support your position. You can't have done well at school as you didn't read the exam question
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Re: Cadence, power and HR in sweetspot - Riddle me this [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
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I believe as you posted, sweet spot intervals are 88-92% FTP, and the stated protocol is 2 x 20mins. You yourself say you are doing 15 min efforts at 85% FTP. As the guys are pointing out this is below the standard sweet spot session. In fairness, 85% FTP is essentially most peoples HIM effort, so 2-3 hours duration should be easily doable.
Perhaps instead of being defensive, take it as constructive advice to make your session a more beneficial by increasing the intensity a little. Especially if you are time constrained.
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Re: Cadence, power and HR in sweetspot - Riddle me this [sticky] [ In reply to ]
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I'm not being defensive - they simply ridiculed the position that the intervals were pointless, they didn't offer any advice. (I accept your point about the intensity and I do increase it or vary it day to day)


They were then presented with the alternative thread which clearly referenced 15 and 20 minute intervals and was answered by A Coggan and a guy with state and national AG titles and failed to refute it


They haven't offered any advice, they haven't even proffered an alternative, or attempted to refute what Coggan and others suggested worked, they've just behaved like clowns so accordingly deserve to be treated as such. Perhaps if they come back and can offer an adult reasoned argument supported by evidence that bests the examples from the previous thread, they might be worth listening to, otherwise they're tilting at windmills.


I also didn't ask whether anyone thought there was any value in what I was doing, that has previously been asked and answered by individuals that, until I'm shown otherwise, have the greater credibility on the subject.


Question


"If all I do is 15 min or 20 min intervals and single's or multiples of them, do you continue to adapt and increase your FTP?

If I only did for example wu, 2*15min at 85% wd - 50 mins, or same with 20 mins at 95% - and I tested monthly and adjusted those figures (hopefully up) is this the most efficient way of raising your ftp?"


Answer 1 J7


Yes, in my experience. 2 National titles, 4 regional and 8 state titles to my credit doing just this. But most everyone else will tell you no. Graeme Obree had great success with it also.


Answer 2 - Coggan


A.k.a. UniModal Training^TM? I did that during the fall/winter/spring of 2013-2014, just to prove a point and to get ready for a Peaks Coaching Group training camp to which I had been invited. The result was the highest FTP I'd achieved in quite a few years.

https://www.facebook.com/...ype=3&permPage=1


So, I'm not being defensive, I'm just not going to listen to clowns that are going to state arguments the same way my 2 year old does, which is "because!"


As a final note on the subject, the 2*20 protocol seems to have become the defacto standard, though there are two things to be said about this, the first is that there are many alternative ways of skinning the same cat, see example 8 and the fact that there are endless variants on the duration and frequency of sweetspot intervals as well as the fact that I specifically asked about 15 and 20 minute durations in the previously referenced post.


https://www.fascatcoaching.com/tips/sweetspotpartdeux/


the second and more important point, is:


"The underlying principle of sweet spot training is a balanced amount of intensity and volume. From the table above, sweet spot elicits more adaptations than tempo but less than threshold work. The trade off is the key element because day to day an athlete can achieve more positive physiological adaptations by sweet spotting than with threshold or tempo work. The balance lies in the athlete’s ability to recover and therefore repeat and achieve similar wattages day after day with more frequency than full on threshold workouts. The end result is mo’ better training, more TSS, greater CTL, greater TSB and ultimately a higher power at threshold." (quote from fascatcoaching - found from google but a reasonably fair summary of what I am looking for day to day)


If they come back on and offer a valid alternative, I'm game, if they come on and say "thats stupid, because" then they get treated with the contempt they deserve.


I seem to have a lot of time on my hands today so thought I'd explain my issue with them.
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