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RUNNERS: Need some advice / help
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6 month update

ran the Pittsburgh half marathon last week after ~6 months of the BarryP plan and got my PR of 1:25:41 - which blew away my previous PR - thanks again for all of the help!



6 WEEK UPDATE IN LAST POST!



Looking to make some serious gains this year with my running, which is my weakest link of my triathlon.

Looking to be a ~18min 5k, ~38min 10k runner next season during the race (I only do sprints and olympics right now)

Right now I run a 1:29 half marathon, 19:30min open 5k and 40:10min open 10k

I started getting into running in 2015 when I ran 550 miles, this year I am on track to run 675 miles. Long history of sport with competitive swimming, collegiate tennis, etc. I understand that interval training is the key to speed and success, but more easily apply that to swimming.

Questions for you guys here:

-What sort of annual volume do I need to push to get to these figures?
-I try to do speed work 1x a week, is that enough?
-What is your mix of "conversation pace" runs vs. "heavy breathing" runs? (i dont really use a HR monitor, want to get one this month)
- what "open run" benchmarks should I manage to in order to get to my goals of 18/38?

thank you!
Last edited by: Peterszew: May 8, 17 5:36
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Re: RUNNERS: Need some advice / help [Peterszew] [ In reply to ]
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I am about a 18 5k in sprints and high 37 10k runner in Olympic distance. My open 5ks are 16:10-16:30 and 36 low 10ks. My background is running, so I am really weak in the swim and a little weaker in the bike vs my age group competitors.

Remember I am a runner primarily. Olympic distance swims are around 25min and bikes are 23/24mph avg. This is up in Boulder. Then running the times above.
My volume when in Tri training is usually around 40mpw running. 1 long run around 13-15miles. Usually 1 tempo run around 4-6mi in length (total run is 8mi w/ warmup and cooldown). 1 shorter interval workout around 4-6mi (total run is 8mi w/ wu and cd). Then 2 other runs a week easy 4-6mi.

Check out the McMillan calculator for paces. This calc is the best I have ever seen and scary accurate.
Easy runs around 7min pace +- 20sec.
Tempo runs around 5:50pace
Intervals between 5min to 5:30 depending on length.

Hope this helps.

Jeff Abbott - @run1fast
jabbott@headsweats.com
Headsweats - Custom Team singlets $8 / Cycling Jerseys $25
Abbott Event Solutions - Brand Rep and Event Manager
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Re: RUNNERS: Need some advice / help [abbottj123] [ In reply to ]
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Thank you - very helpful.

What sort of volume would you recommend for off-season, call it now through January? 20-30 MPW?
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Re: RUNNERS: Need some advice / help [Peterszew] [ In reply to ]
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Peterszew wrote:
Thank you - very helpful.

What sort of volume would you recommend for off-season, call it now through January? 20-30 MPW?


I'm right at both of those marks (18:05/38min). I didn't see your age, and of course everyone's abilities are different.

It took me about two years to go from 19min/high39min, to break through into the 18/38 range on a regular basis. That was two years of running about 2,000 miles per year, or 40miles per week. I have two friends that were able to do the same in less than six months, which made me a little frustrated!

What will win in the long run, is one track workout per week, one form of moderate run (as you say, "heavy breathing')--whether that's a tempo, fartlek, a very hilly run etc--and then your weekend long run. You can get as specific as you wish in regards to what type of track workouts, or what type of tempo runs to do, but if you are just trying to improve overall as a runner, keep it to about 3-4 miles of track work (as in, 3-4 miles worth of intervals, not including warmup, breaks, cooldown), then 4-6 miles of tempo type work. Everything else can be at conversation pace. That's about as complex as you need to make it. If you has a specific running goal, say Boston Qualifying, then yes, I'd be saying things need to be much more detailed.

I would start at 20-25 miles per week and increase by 3-5 miles per week as your comfort level allows. As mentioned above, my comfort level was around 50-55mpw, with a yearly average at 40 due to rest weeks, getting sick, missing days here and there, etc. But I really think spending as many months as you can, running as much as your body safely allows, will pay huge dividends in triathlon. By spending six months just running as much as possible, I cut my 10K time down significantly.. like 5-6 minutes, which is huge in an olympic.

How quickly you will achieve these goals depends on a lot of variables. It wouldn't hurt to schedule in a 5K or 10K asap, then do one of those monthly to measure your progress. And also, doing those races really helps you learn how to race on foot properly, which most definitely translates over to triathlon. As stated above, the McMillian running calculator is amazingly accurate.
Last edited by: phoenixR34: Oct 21, 16 10:39
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Re: RUNNERS: Need some advice / help [phoenixR34] [ In reply to ]
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Love the simplicity of your response. I like that.

I am 30 years old for reference

Going to stick to your plan of track, tempo and long run.

I will crank up "off season" mileage this year in order to make better gains. Right now I am averaging 13 MPW.

Have the following scheduled:
10k scheduled for November
15k in December
10k in January
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Re: RUNNERS: Need some advice / help [Peterszew] [ In reply to ]
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Peterszew wrote:
Love the simplicity of your response. I like that.

I am 30 years old for reference

Going to stick to your plan of track, tempo and long run.

I will crank up "off season" mileage this year in order to make better gains. Right now I am averaging 13 MPW.

Have the following scheduled:
10k scheduled for November
15k in December
10k in January

That should do it. Perhaps find a training plan online just to use for reference, unless you can plan it out easily. But say week 1, do 10x400 for your track day.. then 6x800 in the second week, then 5x1000 and so on.

The key, which I didn't mention above is the week in, week out and being consistent. Trying to be a hero in week 1 and getting so sore you can't run the day after your track workout, won't help. Chugging along and running day after day, with the occasional slow/bad day thrown in, is the way to go. Short & fast races to stay motivated and measure your progress are great as well. Looks like you have a good plan.
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Re: RUNNERS: Need some advice / help [phoenixR34] [ In reply to ]
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Reading your guys posts I was wondering if any of you I've ever had to work on your mechanics or drastically change your stride.After being a runner for the past 25 years I developed hip pain 2 years ago And was told it was three different things by three different doctors specializing in the hip. Only to finally find out from a physical therapist who is an avid Runner that I needed to change my mechanics Ie My stride length and Cadence As well as my pelvic Posture. I've been working on this now for several months I'm finding it Increasingly difficult to get any kind of speed now that I've changed How I naturally runBut my hip pain is gone completely for the first time in 2 years
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Re: RUNNERS: Need some advice / help [Fishbum] [ In reply to ]
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Re: RUNNERS: Need some advice / help [Fishbum] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah, when I was in high school, I was told "You're running on tip-toe. You need to run with your whole foot. Land with your heel, and then push off with your toe!" So I worked really hard at learning that. And then all the science on toe striking came out, and I had to unlearn it.

As far as cadence, nice thing about being a triathlete is that the ideal cadence for running is the same as the ideal cadence for cycling. So if you practice maintaining a cadence of 90-95 on the bike and get it into your muscle memory, it should have positive effects on your running as well.

https://www.instagram.com/gingerhowellracing/
If you find yourself thinking "What if I can't", instead think "What if I can!"
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Re: RUNNERS: Need some advice / help [Peterszew] [ In reply to ]
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675 is less then 2 miles a day. for a runner only thats not training, thats trying not to get fat.
everyone responds differently to training, but IMO, i wouldn't worry about speedwork till you are at minimum 40 mpw
-run every day
-run easy enough today so that you can run tomorrow
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Re: RUNNERS: Need some advice / help [WillyMFire] [ In reply to ]
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WillyMFire wrote:
675 is less then 2 miles a day. for a runner only thats not training, thats trying not to get fat.
everyone responds differently to training, but IMO, i wouldn't worry about speedwork till you are at minimum 40 mpw
-run every day
-run easy enough today so that you can run tomorrow

Thanks for the feedback. I don't think I agree on your 40mpw for speed work but I get your point. I'm not a natural runner, as I carry a lot of muscle mass but I'm trying!
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Re: RUNNERS: Need some advice / help [gingersnaps] [ In reply to ]
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I hope your cadence counting is done counting only one foot, because 90 is far too low. Ideally you should have 180 beats per minute while running.
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Re: RUNNERS: Need some advice / help [Peterszew] [ In reply to ]
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Off season I'm working on building to 50 mpw of pure LSD running, no speed work needed right now. Once the season starts I do two days or so of bike/speedwork transition runs, one tempo run off the bike of 50-80â„… of the race distance at or above race pace, one 10+ mile long run, and at least one 5 or 6 mile easy run. Usually do almost if not all of my runs off the bike. Seemed to work for me because i ran a 35:21 10k this season. Basically, once you're in the meat of the season you need to be doing more than one speed workout a week, especially for sprint and Olympic distances.
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Re: RUNNERS: Need some advice / help [imswimmer328] [ In reply to ]
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imswimmer328 wrote:
Off season I'm working on building to 50 mpw of pure LSD running, no speed work needed right now. Once the season starts I do two days or so of bike/speedwork transition runs, one tempo run off the bike of 50-80â„… of the race distance at or above race pace, one 10+ mile long run, and at least one 5 or 6 mile easy run. Usually do almost if not all of my runs off the bike. Seemed to work for me because i ran a 35:21 10k this season. Basically, once you're in the meat of the season you need to be doing more than one speed workout a week, especially for sprint and Olympic distances.

Thanks - helpful - would love to run that time!
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Re: RUNNERS: Need some advice / help [Peterszew] [ In reply to ]
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My biggest improvements came on ~ 35-40 MPW. I'd read the science of running for some good background. But everyone's training seems to include 1 track/speed session, 1 tempo, 1 LSD , 1-2 extra run.

For speed sets I'll alternate running faster than goal pace and then sets where I run at goal pace with little rest. The speedy runs are to develop leg speed, so that looks like 50-200 or even 400s but with enough rest to allow much faster than 5k pace. I'm slower than you (19min 5k), so for these I'll aim for ~5 min pace. The others are 800-1600 m at 5k pace or a litttle faster, but rest only 60s or less

Tempo: intervals or 10-20 minutes at 5k or 10k pace

LSD: as advertised

Bonus runs: depends, might be slow or hill repeats or trails.

Brian
“Eat and Drink, spin the legs and you’re going to effin push (today).” A Howe
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Re: RUNNERS: Need some advice / help [Peterszew] [ In reply to ]
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In the off-season, you just need to focus on miles. No repeats, no intervals, maybe a tempo once a week but the off-season should be solely for building base mileage. Once the season starts, you can cut the mileage a little and increase the intensity with repeats/intervals/speed workouts. I do 55-60 MPW in the offseason and most runs are at 60-80% intensity with a hard tempo and a 12+ mile long run, each once a week (I run 7 days a week). I run 15s in the 5k sprints and 33s in the 10k and this has worked for me.
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Re: RUNNERS: Need some advice / help [Pennstate506] [ In reply to ]
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Pennstate506 wrote:
In the off-season, you just need to focus on miles. No repeats, no intervals, maybe a tempo once a week but the off-season should be solely for building base mileage. Once the season starts, you can cut the mileage a little and increase the intensity with repeats/intervals/speed workouts. I do 55-60 MPW in the offseason and most runs are at 60-80% intensity with a hard tempo and a 12+ mile long run, each once a week (I run 7 days a week). I run 15s in the 5k sprints and 33s in the 10k and this has worked for me.

Thanks - what all of these responses are telling me is that 20MPW is not going to cut it. Clearly at least double the volume is needed to be competitive on the run.

With that, I need to get my ass out there!
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Re: RUNNERS: Need some advice / help [Peterszew] [ In reply to ]
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UPDATE

last 6 weeks have averaged 33 miles per week with long runs, speed work and volume.

Ran a 15k this weekend with about 300 feet of elevation gain, 2 loops around shortened Central Park circuit.

5k splits:

20:30
20:31
22:30

TOTAL: 1:03:30

Lost gas in mile 7 and recovered mile 8, overall decent effort with a 41:00 10k split.

Appreciate any thoughts but the quest continues.....
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Re: RUNNERS: Need some advice / help [Peterszew] [ In reply to ]
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Peterszew wrote:
UPDATE

last 6 weeks have averaged 33 miles per week with long runs, speed work and volume.

Ran a 15k this weekend with about 300 feet of elevation gain, 2 loops around shortened Central Park circuit.

5k splits:

20:30
20:31
22:30

TOTAL: 1:03:30

Lost gas in mile 7 and recovered mile 8, overall decent effort with a 41:00 10k split.

Appreciate any thoughts but the quest continues.....

Nice work. I'm glad you're enjoying the whole running thing. My advice for you is to build your run consistency. I'd like to see you try to follow the BarryP run plan this winter (search it here on ST). The idea is to do 3 short and easy runs per week, plus 2 medium distance runs and one longer run. This will help you build the base you need to finish those races.

Here's a decent weekly structure to start out. Every couple of weeks add a little distance to each run type so that you are running 50 miles per week by March. The I started this plan back in 2010, I rode my bike on my short run days and swam on my medium run days.

M: Rest
T: 3 miles, Easy
W: 6 miles, workout (2 x 2 miles)
T: 3 miles, Easy
F: 6 miles, tempo miles or progression run
S: 3 miles, Easy
S: 9 mile Long run

What I do: http://app.strava.com/athletes/345699
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Re: RUNNERS: Need some advice / help [Peterszew] [ In reply to ]
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in your situation more is more. You probably need more frequency to get more miles. In an off season run focus it's not uncommon to have my athletes running 8-11x per week. Some of those are very short runs and almost every run of those 8-11 is easy. more miles more often = more faster more sooner. You don't really need to worry about running fast currently.

I'll answer your questions below:

What sort of annual volume do I need to push to get to these figures? ***more. I have athletes running 1000-2000 miles per year. depends upon where you are and where you came from. If not a runner then more will make you a runner. Endurance sports more volume matters more than intensty to achieve your absolute maximal performances

-I try to do speed work 1x a week, is that enough? if you want, but for now I wouldn't worry to much about it. I would consider running hilly routes or doing a hill workout on the treadmill

-What is your mix of "conversation pace" runs vs. "heavy breathing" runs? (i dont really use a HR monitor, want to get one this month) 8-10/11 conversational. 1 with some heavier breathing

- what "open run" benchmarks should I manage to in order to get to my goals of 18/38? run a 5/10k see where you're at. Then put in the miles to get to where you need to go. Benchmarks are bullshit. By that I mean they tell you where you are, not where you need to go. While it's good to know where you're at, it's probably more important to know what you need to do to get where you want to go

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

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Re: RUNNERS: Need some advice / help [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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desert dude wrote:
in your situation more is more. You probably need more frequency to get more miles. In an off season run focus it's not uncommon to have my athletes running 8-11x per week. Some of those are very short runs and almost every run of those 8-11 is easy. more miles more often = more faster more sooner. You don't really need to worry about running fast currently.

I'll answer your questions below:

What sort of annual volume do I need to push to get to these figures? ***more. I have athletes running 1000-2000 miles per year. depends upon where you are and where you came from. If not a runner then more will make you a runner. Endurance sports more volume matters more than intensty to achieve your absolute maximal performances

-I try to do speed work 1x a week, is that enough? if you want, but for now I wouldn't worry to much about it. I would consider running hilly routes or doing a hill workout on the treadmill

-What is your mix of "conversation pace" runs vs. "heavy breathing" runs? (i dont really use a HR monitor, want to get one this month) 8-10/11 conversational. 1 with some heavier breathing

- what "open run" benchmarks should I manage to in order to get to my goals of 18/38? run a 5/10k see where you're at. Then put in the miles to get to where you need to go. Benchmarks are bullshit. By that I mean they tell you where you are, not where you need to go. While it's good to know where you're at, it's probably more important to know what you need to do to get where you want to go

Last winter I did this exact same thing for my running.I'm no runner, and my natural abilities are mostly in cycling (at around 178-180 lbs). From sept 2015 to march 2016 I cut all but my commute bike-rides (so that all winter i rode only 16km pr weekday on my bike - rest running). I went from running 2-4 times pr week (and very unconsistent with some weeks totaling 50km and some 10km), to running 5-7 times pr week. I ran very consistently 55-60km pr week (35-37 mpw). I basically did a BarryP approach where i ran 3 short, 2 medium and 1 long runs pr week. I did very little speed-stuff. Allthough, i ran a 10k series with a race every 3 weeks, so this was kinda my "speedwork". My progression that winter were pretty nicley reflected in the 10k races. Starding out just under 40min for the 10k I ended up just around 38 min for the last 10k i march. I also dropped my marathon-time from 3:21 (PR from april 2015) to 3:07 (in april 2016).

I think last winter for me was living proof of the advice given by DD above. I guess I could have improved even more with more running volume. From a Tri-perspective I should also add, what was most interesting to me, that I lost surprisingly little bike-fitness during that winter. As mentioned I basically just rode 16k 4/5 days pr week commuting (i.e. very easy, though I have a hill ascending 200m/600ft on my way home every day). Still, I was very quickly back in "standard" spring bike-fitness in March.
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Re: RUNNERS: Need some advice / help [lovegoat] [ In reply to ]
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lovegoat wrote:
desert dude wrote:
in your situation more is more. You probably need more frequency to get more miles. In an off season run focus it's not uncommon to have my athletes running 8-11x per week. Some of those are very short runs and almost every run of those 8-11 is easy. more miles more often = more faster more sooner. You don't really need to worry about running fast currently.

I'll answer your questions below:

What sort of annual volume do I need to push to get to these figures? ***more. I have athletes running 1000-2000 miles per year. depends upon where you are and where you came from. If not a runner then more will make you a runner. Endurance sports more volume matters more than intensty to achieve your absolute maximal performances

-I try to do speed work 1x a week, is that enough? if you want, but for now I wouldn't worry to much about it. I would consider running hilly routes or doing a hill workout on the treadmill

-What is your mix of "conversation pace" runs vs. "heavy breathing" runs? (i dont really use a HR monitor, want to get one this month) 8-10/11 conversational. 1 with some heavier breathing

- what "open run" benchmarks should I manage to in order to get to my goals of 18/38? run a 5/10k see where you're at. Then put in the miles to get to where you need to go. Benchmarks are bullshit. By that I mean they tell you where you are, not where you need to go. While it's good to know where you're at, it's probably more important to know what you need to do to get where you want to go


Last winter I did this exact same thing for my running.I'm no runner, and my natural abilities are mostly in cycling (at around 178-180 lbs). From sept 2015 to march 2016 I cut all but my commute bike-rides (so that all winter i rode only 16km pr weekday on my bike - rest running). I went from running 2-4 times pr week (and very unconsistent with some weeks totaling 50km and some 10km), to running 5-7 times pr week. I ran very consistently 55-60km pr week (35-37 mpw). I basically did a BarryP approach where i ran 3 short, 2 medium and 1 long runs pr week. I did very little speed-stuff. Allthough, i ran a 10k series with a race every 3 weeks, so this was kinda my "speedwork". My progression that winter were pretty nicley reflected in the 10k races. Starding out just under 40min for the 10k I ended up just around 38 min for the last 10k i march. I also dropped my marathon-time from 3:21 (PR from april 2015) to 3:07 (in april 2016).

I think last winter for me was living proof of the advice given by DD above. I guess I could have improved even more with more running volume. From a Tri-perspective I should also add, what was most interesting to me, that I lost surprisingly little bike-fitness during that winter. As mentioned I basically just rode 16k 4/5 days pr week commuting (i.e. very easy, though I have a hill ascending 200m/600ft on my way home every day). Still, I was very quickly back in "standard" spring bike-fitness in March.

thank you for this post and the posts above - very encouraging and I am sticking to the BarryP plan!

next is a 10k January 7th - will report back.
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Re: RUNNERS: Need some advice / help [Peterszew] [ In reply to ]
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Continued to stick to the Barry plan with some increase in volume over the past few weeks as I fear up for a few half marathons...did a 4 mile race today in 24:37 or 6:10/mile...to close out a 50 mile week...THE PLAN WORKS!
Last edited by: Peterszew: Apr 23, 17 17:52
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Re: RUNNERS: Need some advice / help [Peterszew] [ In reply to ]
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6 month update up top but ran the Pittsburgh half yesterday and ran a 1:25:41 --> a HUGE PR for me

biggest takeaways for me was to just run run run - dont worry too much about pace as that'll come with more volume...

over the last 6 months averaged about ~35 miles a week with ~80% of pace at my comfortable level

did about 5 races that were the bulk of my "speed work"

Found that as I ran more (not surprisingly) i was able to push more and train harder (and recover faster)

thanks for the help!
Last edited by: Peterszew: May 8, 17 5:46
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