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Question about the Strava, Garmin partnership
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so, as i understand it, from the front page announcement, Garmin is now giving you something like that virtual line, in televised swim meets, that shows where a swimmer is relative to the world record. and, not just a line that shows world record pace, but the actual way that world record was swum.

you have the ability to see, at any point, where you are relative to a strava segment's record, that is, how that record was achieved. maybe the fellow who produced that record went out too fast and died, or too slow and caught up, but whatever he did you can see how you're doing against that record. is this correct? do i have this right?

i therefore also suspect that this device and technology can show you how you're doing against your own prior effort on a particular course. is this new? because i don't see why you'd need strava for that, the device could archive prior performances. is this old tech that's been around for years or is this new?

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Question about the Strava, Garmin partnership [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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So the tech to see how far ahead or behind you are from a previous ride has been around for some time virtual partner / virtual racer. It uses the course functionality to do this. I am not sure how they implemented the strava segments but it does seem like an extension of the same base concept with a new interface and potentially the ability to auto launch (have more than one segment ready to go as opposed to courses where you have to select the specific course one at a time).

You can actually do something similar today if you wanted to build a course file based on a KOM and load into your garmin as a course. You would get the distance and time ahead or behind but it would be a bit cumbersome and you would not get the KOM graphics :)

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Re: Question about the Strava, Garmin partnership [Mrcooper] [ In reply to ]
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aha, yes, thanks. so this is just extending this to strava segments. makes sense.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Question about the Strava, Garmin partnership [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I'm pretty sure the garmin is assuming a constant speed. I could be wrong though.

That's all the virtual racer guy goes
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Re: Question about the Strava, Garmin partnership [zachboring] [ In reply to ]
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ah. yes. well, i'm interested in something that records the actual effort, point by point, and then you "race" that effort.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Question about the Strava, Garmin partnership [zachboring] [ In reply to ]
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zachboring wrote:
I'm pretty sure the garmin is assuming a constant speed. I could be wrong though.

That's all the virtual racer guy goes

Strava has the flyby's thing now, this could be that which is not just average speed for the segment.

It very well could just be the avg speed, but it seems that would be a slightly more relevant thing to use for this feature.
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Re: Question about the Strava, Garmin partnership [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Yes I agree. Especially on climbing effort where pitch and velocity change a lot.
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Re: Question about the Strava, Garmin partnership [mrtopher1980] [ In reply to ]
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I agree! Hopefully thay is the case. It will become apparantly once units are in hand. Or if somebody in the know chimes in.
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Re: Question about the Strava, Garmin partnership [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Strava has a "Compare efforts" button on the main segment page for each segment. It lets you choose up to 5 other people and gives you a graph on time or distance as the segment unfolds. It also gives you a list that shows the others speed compared to yours at any given point as +/- xx seconds and +/- xx mph.

Not sure when exactly it was implemented but it has been around for months if not a year. All this only works for later assessment on the Strava site, not real time as the new Edge will do.
Last edited by: willembad: Jul 1, 15 12:41
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Re: Question about the Strava, Garmin partnership [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I'm pretty sure that's exactly what it will be. Strava already has this data, so if they're partnering with Garmin to incorporate the segments at all, I'm sure you'll be "racing" against the KOM (or your own PR) exactly how it was ridden, not just an average speed.
There was a website, raceshape.com, that I loved because it showed all this data. You could copy/paste in any strava segment and select any performances, yours or others. It would then show exactly how you compared. If the KOM rider rode easy and then accelerated up the steepest section, you could see you were x seconds ahead until a certain point, etc. It really took one's strava addiction to a new level!
About a year ago, Strava bought the site and has the data as a feature for its premium members. Making the data visible in real time through a virtual rider is a new step, but I suspect that's exactly what they're doing, especially since it requires a premium strava membership.
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Re: Question about the Strava, Garmin partnership [zachboring] [ In reply to ]
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Great question.

Here is answer.

Each Strava segment on the device will include up to three of the following comparison efforts that the athlete can compete with during the ride: Their personal record (PR), their goal on the segment, the

QOM/KOM time, and/or the next­ fastest time among the athletes they follow.

Once the segment has started, the device shows the total segment time for the comparison effort, how much distance is left in the segment, and how far ahead/behind the athlete currently is (in seconds).

At any point during the live experience, the athlete can 1) change the comparison effort or 2) return the device to the normal display.
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Re: Question about the Strava, Garmin partnership [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I've never used the Virtual Racer feature but my understanding is if you use real data, it gives you real pacing, not just a moving average. And, in the past you could individually download segment ride data from Strava, including a KOM performance and get that on your Garmin to use in Virtual Racer. From the DCRainmaker review I read, it sounds like this works just by automatically downloading selected segment data in advance. So, at a basic level, all this really does is automate the previous process so in that sense it is not really "new." But its does more than that too so the complete package of what it does with Strava segments makes it legit to call this a new feature. As mentioned, Strava has had the "flyby" feature on its website for a while which, albeit after the fact, lets you see a real pacing comparison between two rides/riders (I know this because I have watched myself blow a nice lead several times . . . ).
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Re: Question about the Strava, Garmin partnership [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I am fairly certain the virtual racer uses the real pacing on a point by point basis. The .fit course files that make up the basis are a breadcrumb style with a time stamp for each point. I believe it uses these time stamps and lat/long point to point distance to determine speed for that section. At BBS we create these .fit courses to load so you can try to preplan a course strategy then follow it to try to hit goal time. Depending on accuracy of the course and GPS it is sometimes a bit finicky. I have tried to map a segment then preplan the KOM time (to get the power I needed to hit) then go out and "race" the KOM. It worked great (sort of) as I was not able to maintain the needed target power and saw myself getting further and further behind the KOM but catching up slightly with a big effort towards the end (but not by enough). I assume this is similar to how it will be implemented (though without the target power alerts and with hopefully a smoother interface)

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Amazonian
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Re: Question about the Strava, Garmin partnership [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I wouldn't be surprised if one reason that this technology is in there now is because of GLONASS. With GLONASS, you have a more stable, faster-acquired and likely more accurate position (due to the likelihood of acquiring more satellites) than you do with previous GPS devices. So that line is going to be more accurate and useful.
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Re: Question about the Strava, Garmin partnership [JoeO] [ In reply to ]
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JoeO wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised if one reason that this technology is in there now is because of GLONASS. With GLONASS, you have a more stable, faster-acquired and likely more accurate position (due to the likelihood of acquiring more satellites) than you do with previous GPS devices. So that line is going to be more accurate and useful.

Except for the fact that this is rolling out on non-GLONASS devices too!
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Re: Question about the Strava, Garmin partnership [YTS] [ In reply to ]
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YTS wrote:
JoeO wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised if one reason that this technology is in there now is because of GLONASS. With GLONASS, you have a more stable, faster-acquired and likely more accurate position (due to the likelihood of acquiring more satellites) than you do with previous GPS devices. So that line is going to be more accurate and useful.


Except for the fact that this is rolling out on non-GLONASS devices too!

Well they are backporting it for sure. But -- again because those devices are not GLONASS -- they are going to sometimes show users lines that are off, at least more often than the GLONASS enabled ones. This is certainly a feature that demands a really good satellite lock.

I'm not saying it was the reason but I it certainly makes the entire feature better.

Or... I could be wrong :-)
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Re: Question about the Strava, Garmin partnership [JoeO] [ In reply to ]
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The 510 and 1000 already have GLONASS, it's just the 810 that lacks it
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Re: Question about the Strava, Garmin partnership [YTS] [ In reply to ]
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YTS wrote:
JoeO wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised if one reason that this technology is in there now is because of GLONASS. With GLONASS, you have a more stable, faster-acquired and likely more accurate position (due to the likelihood of acquiring more satellites) than you do with previous GPS devices. So that line is going to be more accurate and useful.


Except for the fact that this is rolling out on non-GLONASS devices too!

That may not be quite correct. As I understand it GLONASS is useful in the high northern latitudes or areas where there is significant overhead cover. It will not necessarily lead to enhanced GPS performance in other situations.

Trust me I’m a doctor!
Well, I have a PhD :-)
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Re: Question about the Strava, Garmin partnership [PhilipShambrook] [ In reply to ]
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Not sure what you mean by "quite correct".

GLONASS gives you more satellites to choose from. Using one increases your chances of better accuracy. GLONASS-enabled Garmins lock on faster. Their accuracy readings (set it as one of your data fields) are generally going to be the best they can be more often than non-GLONASS devices. That's all.
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Re: Question about the Strava, Garmin partnership [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
i therefore also suspect that this device and technology can show you how you're doing against your own prior effort on a particular course. is this new? because i don't see why you'd need strava for that, the device could archive prior performances. is this old tech that's been around for years or is this new?
Per a comment at Ray's blog, Strava Live Segments is like Virtual Racer (circa 2011 / FR610 tech.)
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Re: Question about the Strava, Garmin partnership [JoeO] [ In reply to ]
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Not to derail the thread but will be interesting when Apple start's integrating tech from it's recently purchased GPS company (uses GPS in combo with Iridium sats (Global Low Earth Orbit) to refine it even more) should give cm resolution.

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Amazonian
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