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QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming
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It's that time of year - or it should be - when chlorine substitutes for cologne. You should reek of it. Paulo Sousa tweeted an excellent summary on the matter. It's rare that you find really, really good summations in 140chrs or less. This was one, so I felt compelled to share it.

"Technique goes a long way in swimming, but it's nothing without fitness. Working on your fitness works on technique. The opposite is not true."


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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Agreed.

Why does Paulo tweet helpful stuff, but on ST he only demeans people?
Maybe he will make a New Year's resolution to be a better ST citizen!?
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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>Working on your fitness works on technique. The opposite is not true.

I challenge this. A lot of people work on fitness without any improvement in technique, and it is possible to work on technique while improving fitness. (For example doing 1:20 100's with the "fist" drill to work on feeling the drag through the forearm)

Do some people place a misguided emphasis on technique as a backdoor way of avoiding the hard reality of hard hours in the pool? Sure.
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Swimming in December? No thanks. Pretty big waste of time for most folks...
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [trail] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, just as many will use variations of this excuse to avoid volume and/or intensity on the bike or run.


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"no matt...your FTP is never high enough, there is always room for improvement." - jonnyo
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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So as a noobie swimmer, I'll play the DNG card (Dumb New Guy) and ask how working on fitness works on technique.

If I have a cr@ppy technique, it seems I can improve my overall swim fitness and still have the same cr@ppy technique. Yes, I have become a "better swimmer" because my fitness has improved, but my technique still sucks.

Or to put it in bike terms, I can have a terrible position on the bike (i.e. my "technique") and still become a better cyclist through training. But if I improve my position AND my fitness, I can realize much larger gains, no?

Or is Paulo's position that my technique will improve automatically simply by swimming more...i.e. a prolonged "trial & error" process? If so, why not fast forward and have someone help with your technique?

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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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That's very true. Swimming is complicated because you can't implement good technique without good fitness. On the other hand swimming is "unnatural" enough for us that not everyone can figure out the right technique by just working on their swim fitness so it can sometimes be a bit of a catch 22 situation.




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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Rappstar wrote:
It's that time of year - or it should be - when chlorine substitutes for cologne. You should reek of it. Paulo Sousa tweeted an excellent summary on the matter. It's rare that you find really, really good summations in 140chrs or less. This was one, so I felt compelled to share it. "Technique goes a long way in swimming, but it's nothing without fitness. Working on your fitness works on technique. The opposite is not true."


"Working on your fitness works on technique."
Uh, not really. Actually, it is false.

Just swimming more is definitely not going to have very much of an impact on improving technique. Actually, it can (and often does) have exactly the opposite effect. Just "working on your (swim) fitness" alone readily reinforces bad technique, as you will be repeatedly practicing (1000s and 1000s of times) incorrect and inefficient movement.

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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
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DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
"Working on your fitness works on technique."
Uh, not really. Actually, it is false.

So you are confident enough in this, to say that it is false, despite Brett Sutton and Paulo saying it is true?

hmmm



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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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PLEASE don't put that Paulo guy in the same sentence as Brett Sutton. It's offensive to Brett!!!
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
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I would contend that it is right.

If you've done your due diligence to get your stroke "good enough", by simply improving fitness and utilizing some "toys" your body will gradually improve it's technique.

This statement is like anything else, it assumes you've done some reasonable background work to get "good enough"...


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"no matt...your FTP is never high enough, there is always room for improvement." - jonnyo
Last edited by: sentania: Dec 28, 11 8:53
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
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DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
Actually, it can (and often does) have exactly the opposite effect. Just "working on your (swim) fitness" alone readily reinforces bad technique, as you will be repeatedly practicing (1000s and 1000s of times) incorrect and inefficient movement.

To make another parallel, I see this all the time on the driving range. Guys with gawd-awful horrific swings that are just beating the ground into submission. They make no changes to their swings, no attempts to "fix" their flaws and are basically trying to make their awful swing work for them by forcing themselves to work around their problems (which is horribly unreliable).

Guys just beating a bucket of balls on the range are looking to have their volume (i.e. fitness) replace their technique. It usually doesn't work because they are ingraining very poor mechanics.

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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [sentania] [ In reply to ]
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sentania wrote:
I would contend that it is right.

If you've done your due diligence to get your stroke "good enough", by simply improving fitness and utilizing some "toys" your body will gradually improve it's technique.

This statement is like anything else, it assumes you've done some reasonable background work to get "good enough"...

That is a big qualifier that is not present in Paulo's tweet, though.

Maybe he just ran out of characters?





Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Power13] [ In reply to ]
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Power13 wrote:
Guys just beating a bucket of balls on the range are looking to have their volume (i.e. fitness) replace their technique.

No, that's just working on (bad) technique. Your analogy is TERRIBLE.
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Power13] [ In reply to ]
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I place that qualifier before everything I read about training, you'd be a fool not to.

Edit to add: For example, one rule of thumb says you should ride an Ironman at 73% of FTP. Well if you haven't trained appropriately to ride that hard, boom goes the dynamite.


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"no matt...your FTP is never high enough, there is always room for improvement." - jonnyo
Last edited by: sentania: Dec 28, 11 8:57
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Power13] [ In reply to ]
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I think part of the explanation is that swimming and it's movement patterns are so specific that it's very hard to maintain technique improvements for any length of time unless you have some swim fitness to start with.




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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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jackmott wrote:
DarkSpeedWorks wrote:

"Working on your fitness works on technique."
Uh, not really. Actually, it is false.


So you are confident enough in this, to say that it is false, despite Brett Sutton and Paulo saying it is true?

hmmm

You bet. If you carefully you read my post above, yes, I am very confident in my statements because I've seen it personally more times than I can count. Why a so-called experienced tri coach would say the opposite baffles me. But, in any case, I am good with sticking my neck out and saying the emperor has no clothes.

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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Power13] [ In reply to ]
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I think the "assuming your technique is good enough" qualifier is missing from paulo and brett's technique because it just isn't in their worldview.

They may never run into those 2:00+ per hundred people that really just need to learn how to swim before they proceed.


Power13 wrote:
sentania wrote:
I would contend that it is right.

If you've done your due diligence to get your stroke "good enough", by simply improving fitness and utilizing some "toys" your body will gradually improve it's technique.

This statement is like anything else, it assumes you've done some reasonable background work to get "good enough"...

That is a big qualifier that is not present in Paulo's tweet, though.

Maybe he just ran out of characters?






Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
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Perhaps because you haven't seen people really work that hard? I mean like 30k meters a week swimming in a fast lane where you are forced to really really push yourself all the time. Maybe that is where you start to self discover technique?


DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
You bet. If you carefully you read my post above, yes, I am very confident in my statements because I've seen it personally more times than I can count. Why a so-called experienced tri coach would say the opposite baffles me. But, in any case, I am good with sticking my neck out and saying the emperor has no clothes.



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [The Authority] [ In reply to ]
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The Authority wrote:
Power13 wrote:

Guys just beating a bucket of balls on the range are looking to have their volume (i.e. fitness) replace their technique.


No, that's just working on (bad) technique. Your analogy is TERRIBLE.

Really? Funny 'cuz working on (bad) technique was exactly my point.

Huh....

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"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Power13] [ In reply to ]
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Golf has no comparsion to swimming. If you are a better swimming than someone who needs a noodle to complete a swim than you are going to get faster by swimming harder and using the tools (paddles, bouy, bands) that can help reinforce good technique rather then spending the same amount of time doing drills. I've gone both routes. Hard work is always the answer. You can always incorporate adjustments to improve your technique but that is just the supplement to time and work.

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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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jackmott wrote:
Perhaps because you haven't seen people really work that hard? I mean like 30k meters a week swimming in a fast lane where you are forced to really really push yourself all the time. Maybe that is where you start to self discover technique?

Nope.

You know what happens when you swim 30,000 m per week with poor technique? Most of time, you get worse technique.

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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [TravisT] [ In reply to ]
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TravisT wrote:
Golf has no comparsion to swimming. If you are a better swimming than someone who needs a noodle to complete a swim than you are going to get faster by swimming harder and using the tools (paddles, bouy, bands) that can help reinforce good technique rather then spending the same amount of time doing drills. I've gone both routes. Hard work is always the answer. You can always incorporate adjustments to improve your technique but that is just the supplement to time and work.

First of all, I am not saying "just do drills" nor am I saying don't use "toys". But if you have fundamental flaws in your stroke, simply going for volume doesn't seem like it will fix these issues, unless as I said you end up improving through "trial & error". If that is the case, it seems horribly inefficient.

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"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
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DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
jackmott wrote:
Perhaps because you haven't seen people really work that hard? I mean like 30k meters a week swimming in a fast lane where you are forced to really really push yourself all the time. Maybe that is where you start to self discover technique?

Nope.

You know what happens when you swim 30,000 m per week with poor technique? Most of time, you get worse technique.

I would think you might also get a shoulder injury.
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Power13] [ In reply to ]
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Power13 wrote:
But if you have flaws in your stroke, simply going for volume doesn't seem like it will fix these issues

You got it.

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"Why would you want to be the last man alive on a sinking ship?" -- Elon Musk on why Tesla Motors shares its patents with competitors.
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