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Re: Pro Ironman Prize Money is Insulting and Damaging to the Sport [Devlin] [ In reply to ]
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ok, don't look at avg. marathon times, just look at Boston qualifying times.

A lot of people say the reason we did not produce the runners we are producing now was because the support, money, hype went away. Except for Bob Kennedy, who were kids to look up to in high school running? It wasn't until Nike stepped back in sponsored Meb, Culpepper, Abdi did the running boom we're having today begin to take root. and maybe letsrun gets some credit.

You're right, we need inspiration and athletes can be more inspiring and respected when they are earning as much as athletes in other sports and the financial incentive is big for young athletes.

wovebike.com | Wove on instagram
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Re: Pro Ironman Prize Money is Insulting and Damaging to the Sport [milesthedog] [ In reply to ]
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ok, don't look at avg. marathon times, just look at Boston qualifying times.

A lot of people say the reason we did not produce the runners we are producing now was because the support, money, hype went away. Except for Bob Kennedy, who were kids to look up to in high school running? It wasn't until Nike stepped back in sponsored Meb, Culpepper, Abdi did the running boom we're having today begin to take root. and maybe letsrun gets some credit.

You're right, we need inspiration and athletes can be more inspiring and respected when they are earning as much as athletes in other sports and the financial incentive is big for young athletes.
Right there. If there is a perceived financial incentive, any sport will take off and start producing young stars. Table tennis, soccer, rugby, cricket, many other sports are hugely popular and financially rewarding in other countries. Soccer is probably in the top 3 or 4 sports for overall participation in the world, and many people make a great living from it.

Here in the US, it's not as popular though, and tough to make a living (the MLS notwithstanding) because companies don't promote the sport except around World Cup time.

Guaranteed that if Nike and Coors got together and threw a ton of money at luge, you'd see within a few years a ton of people falling down mountains on their sleds.

John



Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |
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Re: Pro Ironman Prize Money is Insulting and Damaging to the Sport [milesthedog] [ In reply to ]
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I feel Ironman is taking the path that marathon races took in the mid to late 80's and 90's - they started catering solely to the amateurs because that's where the money is. But, during that time, the average times for the entire field began to slow down dramatically - look at the Boston qualifying times in the 70s vs. the 90's. Boston, New York and Chicago started to lose the respect they had amassed in the 70's and early 80's with heros such as Shorter, Rodgers and Salazar. Look at these races today; they are paying top dollar in APPEARANCE fees in addition to cash prizes. (see article: IM is now charging pros, and providing no appearance fees)
You have it backwards. In the 80s and 90s is when marathons actually started paying big appearance fees and big prize money. They were not "catering solely" to amateurs, they were catering far more to elites.
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Re: Pro Ironman Prize Money is Insulting and Damaging to the Sport [milesthedog] [ In reply to ]
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three words:


supply.











vs.











demand.

this isn't a critical, 'society-can't-function-right-without-it' item like police/fire protection, education, health care, infrastructure, etc.

so the market rules.





Where would you want to swim ?
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Re: Pro Ironman Prize Money is Insulting and Damaging to the Sport [milesthedog] [ In reply to ]
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Some businesses need to do all of what you say. IM is virtually unique. Almost a monopoly and they sell as much of there product as they can "produce" at a high price.

Again, I would prefer they support pros, but how will it benefit them, the organizers, not how do other business practices benefit other businesses.

Styrrell

Styrrell
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Re: Pro Ironman Prize Money is Insulting and Damaging to the Sport [styrrell] [ In reply to ]
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this was already discussed: paying more for pros brings more attention to the races - it's great marketing, it gains them more ad, sponsor, tv revenue, more participants, more gear with the IM logo bought by fans, not just athletes.


supply and demand? there is demand, look at the sold out races, look at the gear bought. capture a larger audience by making ironman pros heros, well known by the espn viewer.

wovebike.com | Wove on instagram
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Re: Pro Ironman Prize Money is Insulting and Damaging to the Sport [milesthedog] [ In reply to ]
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great points.

I'm around everday people, non endurance athletes, daily.

What do they talk about? How much NFL, NBA players make. They bring up Phelps because of the money he makes. They bring up Lance because of his celebrity status, they bring up Tiger because of the money he makes.

Yes, these people jumped out to capture the publics imagination. But, last time I checked, popular music and movies get known because of being over hyped. Do you want a hero in triathlon? Create it, throw money at it, everybody has story - publicize that story. Is Wellington not a Tiger? Is Potts not a Lebron?

The difference between triathlon and pretty much all of these other examples you've touched on in your post is that each of them has an audience in its own right. The NFL, NBA, baseball, tennis, golf, and the Olympics have become marketable properties without specific athletes. Music, movies, and TV are all marketable without knowing anything about the specific actors, musicians, or personalities involved. If the everyday people around you are talking about how much these athletes make, it's not because that's what drew their interest -- they were already interested in the game, and the salaries are just an aspect of that.

Let me give you another example: Michael Phelps has some phenomenal and historic performances at a number of meets outside of the Olympics. In the 2007 World Championships, for example, he won seven gold medals and broke five world records, but how much mainstream media attention did you hear about that? Where was the million dollar bonus from Speedo held out as a carrot for him there? The answer is that the reason the media blitz for Phelps worked in 2004 and 2008 is because the Olympics already had a built-in audience, hungry for heroic and historic performances. That audience just doesn't exist in the same way for the World Championships, and as it stands, no amount of money from Speedo, Powerbar, or whoever is going to change that.

Wellington is, to be sure, a wonderful story, bursting onto the scene from almost nowhere, but can she capture the imagination of mainstream audiences? I'd love it if she could, but I don't see it happening, even if she breaks PNF's career victory record and best finish time at Kona. I think the most she'll be to mainstream audiences is someone who was better than most at a slightly crazy endeavor.

The reason NBC highlights the emotional stories in their broadcast is because those are the things that have a better chance of appealing to the mainstream. They want the people who have overcome the odds, battled back from the brink, beaten back the skeptics to achieve the impossible. Marc Herremans is probably the closest thing we've had to the type of story that could capture the imagination of the mainstream audience -- a former pro paralyzed in a crash only to battle back and win the physically-challenged title. A great story, but somehow still not enough ...

Triathlon, in and of itself, doesn't have a mainstream audience. People don't pay attention to the game for the game's sake alone, as it currently stands, and until it does, there won't be a way to throw money at the sport's professionals to create the kind of hype you describe, simply because nobody will be watching.

The one tactic that's been mentioned on this thread that actually might have a shot at attracting more mainstream attention is a reality-show take on IM. Take, say, 20 average, sedentary people (10 men and 10 women), and follow them in a weekly reality show as they prep for IM. To create the week-in, week-out nastiness that people have come to expect from reality shows (and that tends to create an audience), limit the number of slots into the race to two per gender. The finale is to have the two "qualifiers" in each gender race for the prize -- $1M. It's unfortunate, but I think this has a better chance of reaching the average joe out there in TV-land than spending that $1M on the professionals. (And, just to make it clear, I do agree that the pros in our sport deserve better for the work they put in -- the current reality, though, is that they can't expect things to change any time soon.)

cramer
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Re: Pro Ironman Prize Money is Insulting and Damaging to the Sport [milesthedog] [ In reply to ]
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It is a business plain and simple. When the pros can pull 80,000 fans who pay $35 and more per race they will get paid like football and baseball players.
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Re: Pro Ironman Prize Money is Insulting and Damaging to the Sport [milesthedog] [ In reply to ]
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I couldn't agree more with you. Thanks for bringing up this topic.

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http://ebrownracing.com | http://twitter.com/EzEBreezy
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Re: Pro Ironman Prize Money is Insulting and Damaging to the Sport [cramer] [ In reply to ]
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reality show = disgusting.

Again, look to marathon running. These athletes are not house hold names and they will never be up there with the nfl/nba, but they are given reasonable prize money compared to what IM pros make.

Triathlon is the IT sport for the average joe wanting to get in shape and having idols and heros for a sport that allows anyone to compete in the same race as the worlds best triathletes, unlike football and basketball, is appealing and amazing.

the self loathing here is pretty amazing.

Ironman (WTC) is not giving back to the sport that it is profiting from as much as it should be. No, you can't compare triathlon to mainstream American sports, but you can compare it to running. Other than high school and collegiate runners, who looks up to milers such as Alan Webb and Bernard Lagat? Yet, they get huge prize amounts.

The Tour de France's ASO also has a monopoly, like WTC, but I don't see them skimping on prize money.

wovebike.com | Wove on instagram
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Re: Pro Ironman Prize Money is Insulting and Damaging to the Sport [RBR] [ In reply to ]
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"When the pros can pull 80,000 fans who pay $35 and more per race"

How many participants are there in IM races world wide? How much are they paying per race?

It is business, plain and simple.

wovebike.com | Wove on instagram
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Re: Pro Ironman Prize Money is Insulting and Damaging to the Sport [milesthedog] [ In reply to ]
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If paying more to pros is great marketing give an example where paying more to pros has made a sport more marketable.

Styrrell

Styrrell
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Re: Pro Ironman Prize Money is Insulting and Damaging to the Sport [milesthedog] [ In reply to ]
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reality show = disgusting.

Again, look to marathon running. These athletes are not house hold names and they will never be up there with the nfl/nba, but they are given reasonable prize money compared to what IM pros make.

Triathlon is the IT sport for the average joe wanting to get in shape and having idols and heros for a sport that allows anyone to compete in the same race as the worlds best triathletes, unlike football and basketball, is appealing and amazing.

the self loathing here is pretty amazing.

Ironman (WTC) is not giving back to the sport that it is profiting from as much as it should be. No, you can't compare triathlon to mainstream American sports, but you can compare it to running. Other than high school and collegiate runners, who looks up to milers such as Alan Webb and Bernard Lagat? Yet, they get huge prize amounts.

The Tour de France's ASO also has a monopoly, like WTC, but I don't see them skimping on prize money.
There are 10-20 times more runners world wide than triathletes. And, those runners are going through more shoes than triathletes since they are not riding their bikes.

Actually, I suspect that the amount of prize money that ASO offers at the TDF, for this 21 day event, is small compared to the amount they bring in just from world wide TV alone.

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks
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Re: Pro Ironman Prize Money is Insulting and Damaging to the Sport [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]
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I addressed this: tri gear vs. running shoes, earlier in the thread. How many shoes does it take to buy a tri bike with a power meter and aero wheels?

to the other poster, Running. Running has upped its prize purses and sponsorships and this generation has heros and this has lead to a new boom in talent and interest. interest = more sales for products, more spectators (even if only online, which equates to ad revenue).

The sport of running is not overflowing with money, but they pay their pros appropriately at races, something Ironman/WTC is failing to do.

wovebike.com | Wove on instagram
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Re: Pro Ironman Prize Money is Insulting and Damaging to the Sport [GregX] [ In reply to ]
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three words:


supply.
vs.
demand.

this isn't a critical, 'society-can't-function-right-without-it' item like police/fire protection, education, health care, infrastructure, etc.

so the market rules.

What market? There is no market. NAS/WTC effectively monopolizes professional IM racing.

An analogy would be Hershey buying up all chocolate companies, then jacking up the price of chocolate to $100/bar. People will still buy it - there's still supply and demand - but it's not a free market.

If each IM event were truly independent and had to actually compete to get top pro athletes to show up, you might see pay rise significantly. Or you might see the pro category disappear entirely. But you'd definitely see the market at work.

I would argue that, for a lot of reasons, there are very steep barriers to entry to compete with WTC/NAS. Triathlon One-O-One? They got shut down *fast*.
Last edited by: trail: Jan 30, 09 19:01
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Re: Pro Ironman Prize Money is Insulting and Damaging to the Sport [trail] [ In reply to ]
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maybe they should resurect the 1-0-1 series and fix everything...
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Re: Pro Ironman Prize Money is Insulting and Damaging to the Sport [milesthedog] [ In reply to ]
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competitor radio has a great interview with Macca that was put up 2 weeks ago. I am not a big Macca fan per se but I will give him this, he knows marketing and he knows how to promote sport. That equity firm should hire him.

Listen to it, he has a great idea about taking Ironman and making Grand Slam style events as part of the circuit. Similar to tennis or golf. Obviously Frankfurt would be one event, I would submit Australia and New Zealand and South Africa could rotate a Southern Hemisphere Championship, and IMC/LP could rotate a North American Grand Slam. Hawaii becomes the Masters, or the Wimbledon of Ironman. 4 events, 4 major champions each season to celebrate and maybe one day someone goes for the grand slam.

I would suspect a private equity firm will think this shit up for themselves and now that they own ALL the north american events they can at least start to bring marketing and championships together (and maybe just maybe, protect their brand by actually having drug testing!!!). They no longer have to compete with NA Sports for ideas, they now will own those ideas.

Repeat process for 70.3 and pick those 4 grand slam events for pros to qualify to HAwaii at. It is ruthless to have the top athletes have to qualify at an ironman. Lets keep Henning, Potts, Sultan, Bentley, Ficker fresh for the hawaii race!!!

Anyway, that is my two cents.

@rhyspencer
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Re: Pro Ironman Prize Money is Insulting and Damaging to the Sport [milesthedog] [ In reply to ]
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I'm not an Ironman athlete, but I love following endurance sports for the sole purpose of spectating the pros

The problem is that most people do not share your interest in following endurance sports.

I compete in IM's and to be honest, enter races without the least bit of interest in how many pros are there.I have no idea what they make in or out of the sport but since it is their chosen profession, it is up to them to find a way to earn a living. I think most competitors who train and work would love to compete without having to work but that is life, it's not always fair.

If people are so concerned without how much a pro makes, they can donate money to them and help with their chosen lifestyle but I rarely see that. We tend to complain because others don't sponsor them but why not do it yourself? Take a few hundred dollars each month and give it to a pro triathlete of your choice. If enough people do that, they wouldn't have to rely on corporate sponsors.
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Re: Pro Ironman Prize Money is Insulting and Damaging to the Sport [trail] [ In reply to ]
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What market? There is no market. NAS/WTC effectively monopolizes professional IM racing.

It each year it amazes me a bit more, the critical decision that was made to trademark and license the Ironman name. Consider, if you will how different things may be, if the word ironman was like the word marathon - and it simply referred to a sports most popular and legendary distance event. I wonder how different things would be. It's been great so far, but their comes a time when you may have too many or all your eggs in one basket - and that can be risky. Marathon running is thriving. It's diverse. It has many different corporate sponsors involved in many different events all over the world with a big world wide audience and participatory base. Ironman by contrast has a much narrower view and thus narrower opportunities, in a much smaller market. As I said, it's all been wonderfully successful to date - just wondering where it will go from here?



Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Pro Ironman Prize Money is Insulting and Damaging to the Sport [cramer] [ In reply to ]
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Wellington is, to be sure, a wonderful story, bursting onto the scene from almost nowhere, but can she capture the imagination of mainstream audiences? I'd love it if she could, but I don't see it happening, even if she breaks PNF's career victory record and best finish time at Kona. I think the most she'll be to mainstream audiences is someone who was better than most at a slightly crazy endeavor.

cramer
I hate to say this but one of the problems with Wellington (who I do like), is that she is not American. America is the biggest market for sports. We spend more than anyone else combined. Soccer is the largest sport in the world, most followed, it has some of the highest paid athletes, but on average are they paid as much as baseball, basketball, football, dare I say even hockey players?

Look at who the biggest stars in the world are? Are they all Americans? no. Where did they make their names? in American sports. These are all team sports, but lets look at individual sports: who are the biggest names? Americans for the most part, snowboarding, swimming, gymnastics, running. Where are the names made if they are not American? In American competitions for the most part.

The only outliers here might be rugby, and cricket, which are large in former British colonies.

In American we like domination. We like Americans, but don't necessarily need our heros to be American, look at baseball or even many basketball players. We also like comeback stories. Look at Pistorius, he got play here so that means he got play overseas. In America we create most of the best known sports players. Every country will have their local and national champions/heros. Until Barack Obama, Michael Jordan was the most known person in the world followed by Bill Clinton. Not sure how those ranks still stand.

Another reason why America and our perceptions of sports and their athletes are more important than any other country are the brand names. Gatorade, Nike, Trek, Reebok, Callaway even Under Armor.

What are the foreign brans? Mizuno, Adidas, Shimano, Puma.

American brands dominate because they have more money to make sure their names are on more butts, shoulders, feet and helmets than any other brand. For our sport to become mainstream it needs a huge influx of cash. From that heros and comeback stories will be made. If we can have one major breakthrough, maybe an American will triathlon in the Olympics the sport will become far more mainstream which will mean money will lead to more stories and then more money. Money buys stories. Without money there is nothing.

-- Aaron Davidson
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Re: Pro Ironman Prize Money is Insulting and Damaging to the Sport [milesthedog] [ In reply to ]
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My Prediction

Lance will win Ironman 2010! The money will start to flow in! all will be good!

Scott in Whistler
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Re: Pro Ironman Prize Money is Insulting and Damaging to the Sport [aarondavidson] [ In reply to ]
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Another thing to add is that we as a sport are not accessible. Triathlon is a very expensive event to become involved in. Bike, bike gear, running gear, swim gear, entry fees.

Running on its own is very accessible, however one of the reasons why baseball and soccer are so widely watched, loved and participated in is because they are even more so. What do you need to play soccer? A ball, not even a real soccer ball, baseball: stick and a ball. You may think I am simplifying or exaggerating here, but look at some of the third world countries that participate. The Dominican Republic has a ton of players that play in the US, and started playing with a stick/branch whatever and a ball that was a rock wrapped in old socks.

One thing that surprises me is the lack of investment in the sport by some of the larger names and private individuals. Since we are a more 'elite' sport, we have a lot of individuals that compete at all levels that are very wealthy. I am also somewhat surprised by the lack of their involvement in giving back.

-- Aaron Davidson
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Re: Pro Ironman Prize Money is Insulting and Damaging to the Sport [aarondavidson] [ In reply to ]
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Look at who the biggest stars in the world are? Are they all Americans? no. Where did they make their names? in American sports.

Roger Federer, Rafael Nadal and a few hundred football (soccer) players might disagree.
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Re: Pro Ironman Prize Money is Insulting and Damaging to the Sport [FJB] [ In reply to ]
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Look at who the biggest stars in the world are? Are they all Americans? no. Where did they make their names? in American sports.

Roger Federer, Rafael Nadal and a few hundred football (soccer) players might disagree.
I did leave off Federer and Nadal, they are hugeish stars. Another elite sport, its not as widely played as 'American' sports. I would argue tennis is a big as it is because of the women not the men, sex sells. I also included soccer. There are maybe 5 super big players, outside of them they are all b-level players. However if you read what I said I also mentioned that soccer is widely accesible. Virtually no cost, and while it is huge on a world arena, it is larger in a regional/national level.

-- Aaron Davidson
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Re: Pro Ironman Prize Money is Insulting and Damaging to the Sport [milesthedog] [ In reply to ]
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Someone should organize an Iron distance race, find a sponsor with deep pockets and put it on the same day as Kona. Offer $1M for 1st Place, $750K for 2nd, $500K for 3rd……live television coverage of the event on Versus, etc, etc.

Then we would see if it’s all about the Prestige/Mystique of Kona or if it really is “about the money.” WTC does what they do and offer scraps to the greatest athletes n the world because there is no competition. If there was a viable threat to their brand they would be forced to keep pace.


**All of these words finding themselves together were greatly astonished and delighted for assuredly, they had never met before**
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