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Re: Premier Tactical [dkennison] [ In reply to ]
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Any plans to get some into the hands of some reviewers?

Also, any chance of getting some higher resolution photos on the site?


--Chris
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Re: Premier Tactical [chriselam] [ In reply to ]
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chriselam wrote:
Any plans to get some into the hands of some reviewers?

Also, any chance of getting some higher resolution photos on the site?

I haven't ridden the bike outside, but I've ridden it inside and been up close with it. I wrote some comments about this elsewhere on the forum and if I ever get a chance will expand upon them, as I probably have enough thoughts for a review, but for now I'll just say the Tactical is an exceptionally impressive bike and a hell of an achievement by the guy who made it. Not perfect -- not yet anyways, or not yet perfect for me, which I've been plenty vocal about -- but I strongly believe this will be my next bike (in a year or so).

Here are some pics: https://www.dropbox.com/...TXNbMa0E4j1qp2a?dl=0
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Re: Premier Tactical [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks, beautiful bike. I'm thinking this is my next bike too. Can't wait to look at these on my computer tomorrow.


--Chris
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Re: Premier Tactical [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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Wow, nice looking ride.

Now Available: the High-Capacity Speedpack 915/915D Series. Advanced Aero Storage, made in the USA.
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Re: Premier Tactical [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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I wish that he had a more conventional mounting system for the extensions so that you can pick your own extensions but other than that I like what I see.


AERO & LIGHT is RIGHT

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Re: Premier Tactical [BMANX] [ In reply to ]
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It looks like it took a lot of its design queues from the gen 1 Speed Concept. Which is not a bad thing as Trek got a whole bunch of things right with that bike. Sometimes less is more when it comes to superbikes and it looks like Premier has put forth an awesome machine when everything including cost is considered.
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Re: Premier Tactical [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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Any thoughts on the disc that comes with the Premier Tactical? Looks like it is available separately for $699 presumably with some sort of backing from Premier despite appearing to be a re-badged generic flat disc. Does it look like it would work nicely on the Speed Concept?

Jack Toland

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Re: Premier Tactical [JTolandTRI] [ In reply to ]
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JTolandTRI wrote:
Any thoughts on the disc that comes with the Premier Tactical? Looks like it is available separately for $699 presumably with some sort of backing from Premier despite appearing to be a re-badged generic flat disc. Does it look like it would work nicely on the Speed Concept?

Funny you ask. I've been thinking about grabbing one myself and had started drafting an email to ask more about it, but might as well lay down my questions here so everyone can benefit from the answers:

Is the disc tubeless compatible? What are the exact dimensions -- internal width, external max width, brake track width? You mention the blacked out decal option on your website -- any pictures of what that looks like? Would you sell it totally debadged? Is anyone else selling this wheel under separate branding that you know of?

Anyways, I bet it's a solid product. I know it took a long time to develop to meet Dan's required spec. But it's still a lot of money for a race day wheel. Would be interested to hear more
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Re: Premier Tactical [BMANX] [ In reply to ]
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BMANX wrote:
I wish that he had a more conventional mounting system for the extensions so that you can pick your own extensions but other than that I like what I see.

The extension mounting "system" itself is really smart and I wouldn't want to lose that feature/ease of adjustability from the front end, but I totally agree with you on wanting more extension options (and cup/pad options). They know this though and are working on solutions for it already.
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Re: Premier Tactical [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for the pics.

I've been trading emails with Dan this week and he has been amazingly responsive and helpful with all my questions.

I'm planning on ordering up a frameset and a few chains this week to build it up

In my opinion, the only thing that I wish this bike had is integrated hydration. Something along the lines of the Plasma 5 or Speedmax SLX.
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Re: Premier Tactical [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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kileyay wrote:
JTolandTRI wrote:
Any thoughts on the disc that comes with the Premier Tactical? Looks like it is available separately for $699 presumably with some sort of backing from Premier despite appearing to be a re-badged generic flat disc. Does it look like it would work nicely on the Speed Concept?

Funny you ask. I've been thinking about grabbing one myself and had started drafting an email to ask more about it, but might as well lay down my questions here so everyone can benefit from the answers:

Is the disc tubeless compatible? What are the exact dimensions -- internal width, external max width, brake track width? You mention the blacked out decal option on your website -- any pictures of what that looks like? Would you sell it totally debadged? Is anyone else selling this wheel under separate branding that you know of?

Anyways, I bet it's a solid product. I know it took a long time to develop to meet Dan's required spec. But it's still a lot of money for a race day wheel. Would be interested to hear more

Kiley, I'm really curious as to what changed your mind from your previous opinions:

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The open mold wheels are also a non starter for me. The entire line of defense from these component profiteers about the quality of their factories and the volume of products per annum is getting old. It doesn't mean anything. My guess is the wheels in general and the brake tracks in particular are trash at best and dangerous at worst, like others of this ilk.
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Re: Premier Tactical [kmill23] [ In reply to ]
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kmill23 wrote:
Kiley, I'm really curious as to what changed your mind from your previous opinions:

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The open mold wheels are also a non starter for me. The entire line of defense from these component profiteers about the quality of their factories and the volume of products per annum is getting old. It doesn't mean anything. My guess is the wheels in general and the brake tracks in particular are trash at best and dangerous at worst, like others of this ilk.

It's a good question. What changed is that I had a long conversation with Dan where he walked me through the process of how the wheel was wrought. Prior to this conversation, in my ignorance, it was either "those are open mold shit bricks, or those or Zipps/Enve's". But it doesn't really work like that. As far as I understand, Dan didn't just accept what was on the market and throw his label on the cheapest acceptable option -- which is what I thought when I made that statement -- he went around to several Asian manufacturers and told them what wheel he wanted and he challenged them to make the thing. At least one of the Asian manufacturers spent a year trying to make it and failed -- they couldn't hit the internal width he wanted, or something along those lines.

My understanding now is that the difference between Flo and Premier is that Flo owns their molds and they are entirely proprietary. While the mold for this Premier wheel was developed for this wheel, I don't think Premier owns it exclusively, which means eventually you could see it elsewhere with a different branding. Which is fine by me, as long as nobody is paying a lower price than I -- and that's unlikely, because there is no way anyone is going to accept as thin of margins as Premier for any of this stuff -- but that's also why I asked the question of whether it was being sold elsewhere and by whom. Both companies (Flo and Premier) use great factories in Taiwan (not China) that specialize in manufacturing wheels. Zipp, Enve, Reynolds, HED -- those companies are in a different class here as they own the molds and manufacture the product, but you're going to pay for that, and it's not always that much better, especially aerodynamically.

Anyways, I am still fairly certain that the braking on the Premier stuff will be bad. Flo bad. Williams bad. So, in other words, not Zipp good. But also not carbon-cycle off Ebay horrendous or DHGate-level dangerous. I expect the braking to be acceptable in the dry and tolerably bad in the wet. But the disc in particular is a race day wheel and we all know how little braking matters on race day.
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Re: Premier Tactical [BMANX] [ In reply to ]
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BMANX - I'm responding to you but answering a few of the last questions on this thread.

1. Along with the current extensions I have J-Bend and Ski-Bend on the way. Should not be long for those - maybe mid July. They will use the same adjustable mounting system and will follow what you see on the market from other manufacturers with regard to shape options. This was one of the first request I had after the launch and I agree they are needed to round out the front end options.

1.a. We tested a lot of options with respect to hydration both electronically and then in the tunnel. Our bike is fastest with the current Profile Design FC-35. Its a nice piece and holds gels, fluid and computer (up front were it needs to be). Our bike tested 3.2 watts faster with that system in place. The new extension option will make other preferences viable.

2. I have been looking/working on two tilt options - one option is complete. Drawings and CNC samples are done and a prototype is on the way. If the first option works well I will just run enough CNC for the first bikes - and will include production product available by July. I will not increase the price and simply add it to the package. If its not acceptable I will look at the second option.

3. The bike will be here soon so you should be able to get some reviews from customers rather than from people I select to test ride the bike. I think their reviews will be more meaningful. I have thrashed this bike in every condition from technical rides to harsh pothole filled roads - bombing it down hills and long steady pace rides. I have used the Front Center adjustment to see if I could feel the difference and have ridden it with 53/39 and the stock 52/36 with varying arm length. I would not change anything .... others with different riding styles and locations will be valuable feedback and I look forward to that.

4. Wheels are interesting in this business. I don't own the molds to our wheels but the factory is selling 100's per month in their Track Tubular 1200 g, Road and Track Clincher 1285 g. Those are sold by companies at prices slightly higher than ours and twice the price of ours but those with twice the price have slightly better hubs. The ones that are slightly higher price up to big margins use the same hub we do.

We use Chosen and some of the other wheels at high prices use everything from decal-ed Chosen, Pillar and up to the various DT Swiss selections (240 and 350 made in Europe and made in Taiwan).

Our disk width is 24 mm at the wheel / tire interface and works well with 23 - 28 mm tires. Brake track is 12 mm wide. The brake track is slightly sloped to the 24 mm wide portion - the flat portion of the rest of the wheel is about 25.5 mm wide down to the hub. Because of the way we shroud the rear wheel CCR is a bit more important than Aero on our bike in the rear - we use 23 mm Continental GP 4000 II as stock. You can go up to 28 mm wide if you like and the comfort trade off may well be worth it. For the blacked out version (everything blue is black) the rest is the same. We are also bringing in a limited number of 88 mm rear wheels in both black and blue decals at the request of some pre-order customers. Interior dimension of the Disk is 16.8 mm. It has a nice cut-out so its easy to fill with air and we supply a crack-pipe with each bike.

The front wheel (88 mm) is the same with respect to decals and hub (Chosen). It is 25 mm wide at the wheel / tire interface, 18 spokes and 17.5 mm wide interior, also sloped brake track. We use Continental GP 4000 II tires as stock. The front wheel is fastest with the 23 mm on our bike; 635 g. You can go up to 28 mm tire but it is much faster with the wheel we use as standard. Dimensions are as follows: 25 mm wide, then the brake slope and then slightly wider 28 mm wheel profile at its widest point and then the taper back to the spoke holes 10.5 mm - works great with the 23 mm wheel creating a really nice aero-foil shape.

General on Wheels - I went to 6 of the best wheel factories that do private label after our coordinator and Taiwan team narrowed down the list from many factory options. Two in China and 4 in Taiwan. I really thought we would go with a factory in China at first. I tested the wheels at "Faster" tunnel based on the quality of their manufacturing facilities and general fit and finish. Some Taiwan companies (most) also have facilities in China so the market is blurred in that respect. I tested GP 4000II, SuperSonics, Bontrager Aero in a number of widths on both disk and front 88 mm. I used a fast control wheel and the wheels were slow. You just can't tell by looking at a wheel.

I then started working with a mid sized Taiwan company that produces a really nice wheel with some neat brake track heat dissipation properties. The front wheel was great and tested good but the rear disk was 19 mm wide and I really wanted to get some width to allow for some comfort for our long course customers. They tried to make a 24 mm wide disk for about a year but could not get it to pass QA within my time frame. Facing non-matching wheels from two different factories I decided to make a switch. Its too bad as they were a nice company.

We ended up with a medium-large well established and very high quality company that meet all the requirements that I had originally set out to meet. They had sought us out hearing that I was looking for a partner; I was lucky to have worked with them as I was not sure which way to go at the time (mid March 2016). They were already working on a wide disk so things just worked out. They own the molds and can sell it to others but have not as of this date because I have book all the production on that particular wheel.

*******************
Dan Kennison

facebook: @triPremierBike
http://www.PremierBike.com
Last edited by: dkennison: Apr 29, 17 7:24
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Re: Premier Tactical [kmill23] [ In reply to ]
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HI Kiley

I live in Taiwan and can tell you made in Taiwan is great but for some things China has passed Taiwan due to production for bigger brands and learning r&d together.

The reason I generally choose made in Taiwan is because I prefer having quick access to my suppliers, ie within 45 mins from my office because as a small brand I do all our own qc.

I had a great chat over a few days at Taipei show with Dan and I agree his bike is well designed.

Dan has a good team in place here in Taiwan helping him on the ground.

Just don't be too quick to judge a product that is new on the market. Small brands may not have as much capital but that doesn't mean they won't be careful in developing a product to pass safety, etc.(granted some small brands do cut corners)

Braking wise, I think some Asian suppliers are making really good safe clinchers just need to know the right supplier.
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Re: Premier Tactical [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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I really like the fit and feel of the Zipp extensions so as a customer I would like to have that option to use those extensions. All other contact points I can change to my liking but this contact point is not able to be changed out.


AERO & LIGHT is RIGHT

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Re: Premier Tactical [dkennison] [ In reply to ]
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Dan, thank you for taking the time to reply to my email and others. I was looking at pictures on the aerobar and how do you adjust the width of the extensions. I prefer my extensions closer together with just enough room to place a BTA between them. I know others like them wider apart.

Most have a mounting system that allows for the clamp to be placed inward or outward to allow for this adjustment.

I do understand from looking at your product that you can rotate the extensions inward so that your hands are closer together but that puts the extensions angled in such a way that does not feel very good. It would great if it was possible to have a J-Bend be able to point straight up but be able to adjust the width of the extension only.

I believe that with your system, to get your elbows closer together you have to do so with the armrests only and not the extensions and armrests. I am thinking that if you could someone add 1 more position to go a bit more narrow or have a bracket to allow a more narrow adjustment it would allow more people to find their perfect position.

Maybe I am not able to see how this can be done in pictures but I have checked on your website as well and did not see how this can be done. I do believe that the center to center adjustment needs to have at least 2 options without having to rotate the extensions and place the armrests into the inner most position.

Can you please let us know what the center to center currently is on the aerobar?


AERO & LIGHT is RIGHT

Last edited by: BMANX: Apr 29, 17 8:50
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Re: Premier Tactical [dkennison] [ In reply to ]
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What an impressively thought out package at a bargain price. If I wasn't already all in with wheels inc discs etc this would likely be my next bike. Kudos.
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Re: Premier Tactical [BMANX] [ In reply to ]
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Just a few quick images. I'll out of the office for the rest of the day.

*******************
Dan Kennison

facebook: @triPremierBike
http://www.PremierBike.com
Last edited by: dkennison: Apr 29, 17 10:15
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Re: Premier Tactical [dkennison] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for the info on the disc. The two biggest questions then:
1) How does it sound?
2) When is it available?

Jack Toland

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Re: Premier Tactical [JTolandTRI] [ In reply to ]
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Whoo ..Whoo...whoo :-)

June 15th +-

*******************
Dan Kennison

facebook: @triPremierBike
http://www.PremierBike.com
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Re: Premier Tactical [dkennison] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for the quick reply. Are you taking pre-orders or will stock just be available once they are in?

Certainly an attractive price point at $1000 less than even a used Zipp CC disc.

Jack Toland

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Re: Premier Tactical [JTolandTRI] [ In reply to ]
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Yes- we are taking pre orders on the website.

*******************
Dan Kennison

facebook: @triPremierBike
http://www.PremierBike.com
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Re: Premier Tactical [culpritbicycles] [ In reply to ]
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culpritbicycles wrote:
I live in Taiwan and can tell you made in Taiwan is great but for some things China has passed Taiwan due to production for bigger brands and learning r&d together.

culpritbicycles wrote:
Just don't be too quick to judge a product that is new on the market. Small brands may not have as much capital but that doesn't mean they won't be careful in developing a product to pass safety, etc.(granted some small brands do cut corners)

Braking wise, I think some Asian suppliers are making really good safe clinchers just need to know the right supplier.

Good points -- thanks for the info. I'm always going to be hesitant buying product from these smaller companies and sole proprietorships -- not just because they have limited capital or aren't careful, but because I suspect they just don't have the throughput and volume to actually get into the best factories. The best factories don't need the 100 wheel order, because they have much bigger clients. Or am I wrong on this?

I'm not going to name names, but I'm also extremely skeptical of small companies run by individuals who never go to Asia, who aren't engineers, who don't have manufacturing experience, etc. I probably should have been paralyzed by a product failure I experienced while riding a Chinese frame distributed by a small American firm that shouldn't even be allowed to conduct business, but luckily I escaped with only a 5 figure dental bill and a broken hand. Hope you can understand my skepticism here.

On wheels, I'm on my fourth pair of Nextie hoops which are made in China. They've been stellar and everything I read online suggests the same. But, they are all disc brake wheels. I think I'm just scared from my braking experiences on the sets of cheap rims I went through on Ebay and DHGate and Aliexpress a few years ago...never again. I should probably keep on open mind as to the breaking quality on these newer rims, especially Dan's, and I will.
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Re: Premier Tactical [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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So, a bit OT but in response to the current direction of this thread. You've been critical of Flo in the past. Has your opinion of Flo changed?

Fwiw, my experience with Flo has been very positive. Just asking out of curiosity.

Scott
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Re: Premier Tactical [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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Kileyay - I don't disagree with much of what you have stated. If I had not been manufacturing high volume technical products in Taiwan for 20 years, did not have a good reputation there and had not paid on time - every time for 100's and 100's of containers of product - I could not have gotten in with the best factories - and you're skepticism would be well founded. Honestly, I don't know how some of the small bike companies have been able to pull it off.

Fortunately or maybe unfortunately I have spent most of my career in Asia producing high quality products. Starting from zero in the bike business would have been near impossible.

*******************
Dan Kennison

facebook: @triPremierBike
http://www.PremierBike.com
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