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Re: Premier Tactical [iamAERO] [ In reply to ]
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For the rider-on testing I was rolling with Profile's FC Hydration systems. This one here http://profile-design.com/...fc-hydration-system/

Ian

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I'm all about athletes MASTERING triathlon
Twitter - @TriCoachIan
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Re: Premier Tactical [dkennison] [ In reply to ]
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When you switched the Premier from 2x to 1x, did you change the RD and/or install a n/w chainring?

For reference: http://www.premierholding.org/pages/quality-control

Also: those images need to be significantly bigger (or the ability to maximize them would be nice)
Last edited by: James Haycraft: Dec 13, 16 14:05
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Re: Premier Tactical [James Haycraft] [ In reply to ]
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No - we just removed the front Mech and small chainring. The test was more to satisfy my curiosity.

*******************
Dan Kennison

facebook: @triPremierBike
http://www.PremierBike.com
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Re: Premier Tactical [ianpeace] [ In reply to ]
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Now that I've seen the track numbers, I'm really confused. How on earth is your CdA that high? Those are penny-farthing with a parachute numbers. Surely there must be something else going on with them.
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Re: Premier Tactical [Grill] [ In reply to ]
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I would have to defer to Jim on that. I was not present at the Velodrome testing.

*******************
Dan Kennison

facebook: @triPremierBike
http://www.PremierBike.com
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Re: Premier Tactical [Grill] [ In reply to ]
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Grill wrote:
Now that I've seen the track numbers, I'm really confused. How on earth is your CdA that high? Those are penny-farthing with a parachute numbers. Surely there must be something else going on with them.

Yea, a .3 is disastrous.
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Re: Premier Tactical [Grill] [ In reply to ]
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Grill, you've seen a lot of results from Ero's tests have ya? For a comparison I just pulled the quickest available comp on the web. Here's DC Rainmaker a number of .2935 and me at .2934. Now DC was on a P3 not a penny farthing and



And here's the page from the Ero report with me on the Tactical
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Re: Premier Tactical [ianpeace] [ In reply to ]
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Nope but I'm intimately familiar with Alphamantis testing and those numbers just don't gel. That's why I'm asking if there's something special or unique about ERO's protocol. If you used that CdA in a course model, you'd still be on the bike leg at Kona.
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Re: Premier Tactical [Grill] [ In reply to ]
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Grill you're going to need to direct your question to Jim Manton - Jim@EROsports here on the ST Forum. I'll be eager to hear his response.

Ian

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I'm all about athletes MASTERING triathlon
Twitter - @TriCoachIan
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Re: Premier Tactical [ianpeace] [ In reply to ]
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Well let's hope he shows!
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Re: Premier Tactical [ianpeace] [ In reply to ]
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I was there with Ray and Jim when that test was done. Let's just say that as great a dude Ray is and as solid as his site and reviews are, he is just not much of a bike tech geek at all. Yeah he was on a P3 but the setup was rather pedestrian. And Ray is a BIG dude with big shoulders and is simply not designed for low CdA.

Here I am counting off laps for Ray. Not an awful position, but he's just a big dude with elbows rather far apart and he catches a lot of wind.



Here is a link to Ray's article if you'd like to read more.
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Re: Premier Tactical [Grill] [ In reply to ]
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Grill: This was my first exposure to Velodrome testing. It sounds like you have a lot of experience so I have a question.

Jim reported the baseline average Cda for the PremierBike Tactical including rider was .2949 and the average for the Felt IA was .3079 for a difference of 0.013.

He also says that 0.013 equals 10.7 watt savings and would save a rider 3.86 minutes in a 180K bike leg.

So my question is if the Cda for the PremierBike Tactical was .237 and the Felt IA was .25 (same 0.013 difference) would the outcome still be the same?

Tactical would still be 10.7 watts savings and save the athlete 3.86 minutes in the bike leg?

Does the rider size change the outcome of the results if the goal of the test is to compare two bikes?

*******************
Dan Kennison

facebook: @triPremierBike
http://www.PremierBike.com
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Re: Premier Tactical [dkennison] [ In reply to ]
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I wouldn't worry about your bike not being faster or not saving time over the IA10; it is and it will. Problem is that I've never seen such massive CdA numbers, which is why I'm assuming there's something in the protocol that's inflating them (could be as simple as the PM being used).
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Re: Premier Tactical [Grill] [ In reply to ]
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Sorry, I'm on a phone with not a lot of time. I'm not sure what the question is. The numbers are what they are. We're not fitting these test riders, they simply were test riders. If I were fitting Ian, his position would be vastly different and the CdA would be lower. For instance, at 250lbs, my personal CdA was in the area of .268, and I'll soon test it again to see what it is 50lbs lighter, and then adjust my positon since I'm now capable of going back to my original fit coordinates. I'm guessing my drag numbers, even at 200 lbs, will be much better than most triathletes. The protocols are the same for everyone, and though there's a lot more to the algorithm, it's basically power vs speed. Simple. They're the same protocols that helped me fit 6 elite UCI World Champions in 2016 alone.

These are the same protocols that allowed me to estimate Luke McKenzie's Kone split from 2013 to within 43 seconds of his actual time, and Heather Jackson to within 7 seconds of her last Wildflower split. From this year, I knew Amber Neben (who I fit, tested in the tunnel and tested again using the Alphamantis system on 3 consecutive days) should've been about 30 seconds ahead of Kristin Armstrong at US Nationals, and if I'm not mistaken she beat her by 28 seconds (and would have easily won
gold in Rio).

On this board, I constantly see people overestimating (or underestimating) their CdA. People are much higher than they want to believe. We see very few triathletes below .25 when they come in. Very few. They might leave lower, but they come in way high, and most need a decent bike fit far more than they need an aero test. Bike Fit, good bike fit, has been lost to marketing. It's now about selling product, not about optimal performance.

These tests were not about the riders position, they were about testing a product. Ian was excellent for that. His was very consistent, which is what we need. What the athletes CdA is, whether high or low, means nothing to me.

Jim Manton / ERO Sports / ERO Insight

Aero Tidbits posted on Instagram & Facebook
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Re: Premier Tactical [refthimos] [ In reply to ]
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"he was on a P3 but the setup was rather pedestrian. And Ray is a BIG dude"

that position didn't look too pedestrian to me. looking at the pics from the article, that was a LOT of drop, and it looks like a pretty low position on the pic of him riding.

i think ian's saddle height on his tri bike is about 80cm. he's not a small guy. he's a rather broad shouldered surfer dude who took up tri. how big is ray? that p3 seemed like a fairly middlin' size, looking at the head tube.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Premier Tactical [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Jim@EROsports wrote:
On this board, I constantly see people overestimating (or underestimating) their CdA. People are much higher than they want to believe. We see very few triathletes below .25 when they come in. Very few.

The Premier obviously tests well, which was the point.

That being said, the above statement means nothing when testing the Premier Tactical.
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Re: Premier Tactical [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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By "setup" I meant "equipment." For a guy who is as technologically focused as he is, that doesn't seem to carry over into super aero bike gear. No disc wheel, etc.
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Re: Premier Tactical [refthimos] [ In reply to ]
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"doesn't seem to carry over into super aero bike gear. No disc wheel, etc."

ah. okay. i thought you were mostly referring to his position, and when looking at the pics of his bike (when he's off) and when he's riding, the position didn't look too pedestrian.

i think jim manton and james haycraft are saying basically the same thing (my take) which is that the absolute numbers mean nothing, only the relative numbers. it seems (i could be wrong) that the wind tunnel testing and the alphamantis testing agree, the tactical is a little faster than the IA when not in a yaw (tho on a velodrome i'm not quite sure what yaw is during turns).


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Premier Tactical [dkennison] [ In reply to ]
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Hi Dan,

Apologies if this is covered elsewhere. Please address the protocol for using your optimized race chain:

http://www.premierholding.org/...ucts/optimized-chain

Meaning, what do you recommend for optimal performance pre-race, race-day and post-race?

Scott
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Re: Premier Tactical [GreatScott] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for your question. When you receive the chain it is ready to go. Just install (the chain comes with a Connex quick link) and ride. It is a standard 118 link chain. If you need to shorten the chain, a ($7.00) chain tool will work just fine. Just adjust to your current chain length.

If you have not used the Connex link before (you will love it) just make sure its on in the right direct. If you hear a click noise in the small cog - its on backward. I put a short video, made by Connex, in the You Tube channel found on the bottom of the website main page.

Training Days - just ride the bike.

Race Day - if you have not used the chain prior to the race just ride the bike on the trainer for 5 minutes on the small cog. It will quickly get silky smooth.

The Wax/PTFE/MSO2 is really good at keeping the chain clean.

Post Race - If you're on roads that are dry and clean just wipe the exterior and apply your favorite lube as usual.

If the roads are super gritty, sandy etc..the Connex link makes taking the chain "off and on" a breeze; literally 20 seconds. In this case the better job you do cleaning and applying lube the better.

*******************
Dan Kennison

facebook: @triPremierBike
http://www.PremierBike.com
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Re: Premier Tactical [dkennison] [ In reply to ]
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over the 17 years this site has been around i've been trying to explain the virtues of the wippermann, which go way past simply the connex link. there are so many tech editors who ride this chain. if wippermann made an electronic shift system i think a lot of people would say, "what do you know that shimano and sram didn't know way before you?"

likewise chains, just the other way around.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Premier Tactical [Grill] [ In reply to ]
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Grill wrote:
Nope but I'm intimately familiar with Alphamantis testing and those numbers just don't gel. That's why I'm asking if there's something special or unique about ERO's protocol. If you used that CdA in a course model, you'd still be on the bike leg at Kona.

It may not have the details you're looking for, but this thread from a couple of years ago provided a lot of info about testing at ERO: http://forum.slowtwitch.com/forum/Slowtwitch_Forums_C1/Triathlon_Forum_F1/Ask_us_anything_about_Aero_Camp__P4943130/
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Re: Premier Tactical [dkennison] [ In reply to ]
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Simplicity can be so elegant. I wouldn't be surprised to find something else out there is marginally faster, but I haven't seen anything that comes close in simplicity. Premier just lept above ICE Friction as the leading candidate for my race day drivetrain. Can you comment on how your chains compare to ICE?

I intend to keep a fresh chain "race ready"; swapping out the training chain/cassette prior to major races. Vice-Versa afterwards; back to the training set up. Any thoughts on that approach?

A few follow ups:
~What treatment do you recommend for the rest of the drivetrain prior to installing a fresh chain? Are mineral spirits necessary?
~How do freshly treated chains perform in wet conditions?
~What type of longevity can we expect from the wax coating?
~Can the chains be re-coated?

Scott
Last edited by: GreatScott: Dec 13, 16 20:11
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Re: Premier Tactical [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
over the 17 years this site has been around i've been trying to explain the virtues of the wippermann, which go way past simply the connex link. there are so many tech editors who ride this chain. if wippermann made an electronic shift system i think a lot of people would say, "what do you know that shimano and sram didn't know way before you?"

likewise chains, just the other way around.

A connex chain is one of the best triathlon investments I've ever made. My protocol for my packing my Speed Concept is:
-undo connex link
-unplug Di2 from rear derailleur
-remove rear derailleur
-remove brake fairings
-pull brake wedges
-unplug wires from front junction box to shifters
-unscrew three screws attaching pedestal/aerobars to stem
-take my wheels off

That might sound like a lot to the uninitiated but, for an integrated super bike, it's a revelatory process. I can do all of that and have my bike packed in about 10 minutes at this point. Was the connex chain a "game changer"? No, but it was part of the cumulative marginal gains that progressively made the process easier. I'm probably going to buy Premier's bike case as well and then use JB weld to hold the t-nuts in place on the Speed Concept's riser so that way I never have to fiddle with unscrewing the basebar.

WTB: TriRig Omega SV (not x). PM me if you have one :)
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Re: Premier Tactical [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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So both Ian and Ray actually have CdAs ~.300m^2? Wow. Unbelievable. Looking at the AeroCoach article, it looks as though everyone is using their own PM for testing? Is that the case?
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