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Powertap G3 vs. Quarq Elsa RS - power readings - just FYI
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If you are like me, you are a numbers nut and having trained with powertap since 2008 on 3 different hubs, you have always been curious about the differences in various power meters. I recently switched to a crank based (the new Quarq Elsa RS for my shimano Di2 drivetrain), but still have my Powertap G3. I decided to sync up my 2 garmins (500 with quarq and Fenix3 with powertap) on a long ride to see the differences over the course of a long ride. What I first noticed throughout the day just at glancing was the constant 15-25 watt difference in the two units. (powertap showed lower). Then I thought, well maybe it's just delayed reading since it's at the end of the drive train. Maybe it's possible the quarq power readings come through 1/2-1 second faster than powertap - meaning if i surge, it takes a fraction of a second for that surge to show in the powertap vs. the instant pressure reading of the quarq just from actual distance of where it is measured.

I'm no DCRainmaker, but here is the output that I just wanted to share. I'm not saying one is wrong or one is right, I'm just saying it's very interesting data. It should be noted both were calibrated at the beginning.
note...edited later for this information which is likely the cause of the differences:
So here are the garmin settings:
Fenix - record every second, GLONASS Off, Auto Pause - On

500 - Non-Zero Averaging, Smart Recording, Auto Pause - On

So I guess the difference is smart recording on the quarq (higher readings) vs. 1 second recording on the powertap (lower readings)

Powertap high level data: (Garmin Fenix3)
Avg power - 175
Max - 643
Max avg power - 20 minutes - 195
normalized power - 184
IF .706
Work - 3463 kJ
distance 108.87 - just including these bottom ones to show the other differences.
avg speed 19.8
elevation gain 3776

Quarq high level data: (Garmin 500) not worn on wrist obviously and I find it probably doesn't have as good connection with the satellites for distance measurement since it's below my head. I say this b/c when I'm following a map, it will lose route frequently.
Avg power - 196
Max - 642
Max avg power - 20 minutes - 206
normalized power - 200
IF .768
Work - 3700 kJ
distance 108.59 - just including these bottom ones to show the other differences.
avg speed 19.8
elevation gain 3655

I think this shows at a high level where your power is truly measured from can make a difference in your readings. It doesn't mean one is more accurate than the other, it just means to trust the unit you are using and be consistent with measuring. i.e. don't train with crank based and then race with hub based or vice versa. Numbers could be drastically off and you could sabotage your race. However, if you are in my age group, feel free to test it in a race :).

This was really just a personal little science project that I always wanted to do.

Texan
Last edited by: tctritexan: Apr 20, 15 13:31
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Re: Powertap G3 vs. Quarq Elsa RS - power readings - just FYI [tctritexan] [ In reply to ]
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powertap reading 195 for max 20 minute power and quarq reading 206 tells me both are accurate, and the powertap is lower due to drivetrain losses as expected. But maybe you need to clean and lube your chain =)

Avg power of 175 for the whole ride vs 196 for the whole ride suggests to me that either something is wrong with one of the power meters, or, more likely, one of the head units is set to auto pause or account for 0s differently than the other. the other possiblity is temperature changed a lot during the ride, the powertap autozeroed, and the quarq didn't.

A crank meter that is accurate vs a hub meter that is accurate should only be off by about 2%, except in cases of short duration power (< 10 seconds) where power meters can differ greatly based on how they sample speed of whatever is rotating (Crank/hub/etc)



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
Last edited by: jackmott: Apr 20, 15 12:36
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Re: Powertap G3 vs. Quarq Elsa RS - power readings - just FYI [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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is a 21watt power train loss normal? seems high.
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Re: Powertap G3 vs. Quarq Elsa RS - power readings - just FYI [Triagain2] [ In reply to ]
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Triagain2 wrote:
is a 21watt power train loss normal? seems high.

no, like I said, the difference in AP for the ride, suggests to me that either something is wrong, or the two head units are auto-pausing or accounting for zeros differently in their averaging.

If you download the files into WKO or TP, or Golden Cheeta, you can sort that out. You can't use the high level data in TP though, as it comes straight from the head unit (or used to) you will have to highlight the whole ride.



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: Powertap G3 vs. Quarq Elsa RS - power readings - just FYI [Triagain2] [ In reply to ]
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Triagain2 wrote:
is a 21watt power train loss normal? seems high.

Even 11 W (i.e., 206 vs. 195) seems high to me.
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Re: Powertap G3 vs. Quarq Elsa RS - power readings - just FYI [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]
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Andrew Coggan wrote:
Triagain2 wrote:
is a 21watt power train loss normal? seems high.

Even 11 W (i.e., 206 vs. 195) seems high to me.

if non zero averaging was on one head unit it might have inflated that too, just less



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: Powertap G3 vs. Quarq Elsa RS - power readings - just FYI [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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jackmott wrote:
powertap reading 195 for max 20 minute power and quarq reading 206 tells me both are accurate, and the powertap is lower due to drivetrain losses as expected. But maybe you need to clean and lube your chain =)

Avg power of 175 for the whole ride vs 196 for the whole ride suggests to me that either something is wrong with one of the power meters, or, more likely, one of the head units is set to auto pause or account for 0s differently than the other. the other possiblity is temperature changed a lot during the ride, the powertap autozeroed, and the quarq didn't.

A crank meter that is accurate vs a hub meter that is accurate should only be off by about 2%, except in cases of short duration power (< 10 seconds) where power meters can differ greatly based on how they sample speed of whatever is rotating (Crank/hub/etc)

Also make sure that both the 500 and the fenix are set to record data every 1 second, the fenix especially may be set to smart recording.

It is funny that max power is so close, but probably meaningless as the they record short power differently.
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Re: Powertap G3 vs. Quarq Elsa RS - power readings - just FYI [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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I will check the two garmin devices to see how they are reading zeros and such and see if there are any differences.

this is the type of feedback I was interested in. This was my first ride with the two powermeters, so it makes me very intrigued.
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Re: Powertap G3 vs. Quarq Elsa RS - power readings - just FYI [tctritexan] [ In reply to ]
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tctritexan wrote:
I will check the two garmin devices to see how they are reading zeros and such and see if there are any differences.

this is the type of feedback I was interested in. This was my first ride with the two powermeters, so it makes me very intrigued.

if you want to pass me the power files for each I can lend some insight, send me a pm and I'll pass along my email



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: Powertap G3 vs. Quarq Elsa RS - power readings - just FYI [tctritexan] [ In reply to ]
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I have two powertaps (a G3 and a G2) and a Power2Max classic. While my bike was on the trainer this year I put the Power2Max on, and compared against the two hubs. The P2M would start 20w high, but would end up 15w low, by the end of a 1 hour session....for both the hubs. My conclusion was the hubs were pretty close to equal.

then....

I changed the battery in the P2M. Now it tracks very close (5w high) to the two hubs. The P2M classic uses a specific coin cell (right down to the manufacturer) and I suspect it is very sensitive to input voltage. It is possible that other power meters are also sensitive in this way. DC Rainmaker indicates on his site that most power meters have a period at the beginning of a workout where they are "warming up" and reliable data can't be obtained until they are done.

I would try this as a methodology:

1. change the batteries in both.
2. make sure the settings are the same on both recording devices (zeros, recording interval, etc)
3. calibrate both at start up
4. do a controlled test where you warm up for 30 minutes. Recalibrate. do a 20 minute interval, 5 minute interval, 1 minute, 30 second, 10 second and compare the intervals vs each other rather than the entire file.

The entire file is interesting from a TSS perspective, but otherwise tells you little about your fitness.
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Re: Powertap G3 vs. Quarq Elsa RS - power readings - just FYI [tctritexan] [ In reply to ]
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Looking at this I am guessing that garmin 500 is not recording 0s. The 500 has an average power of 196 and a NP of 200. The fenix has an average power of 175 and a NP of 184, so a much bigger difference. While the best 20 minute average between the two was only 11. I am guessing this best 20 minute section was done with very little coasting (which is normal if the best 20 minute power is so close to average).

Also, well done to ride for 106 miles and have an average power so close to NP. Did you not stop for water or even stop lights?
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Re: Powertap G3 vs. Quarq Elsa RS - power readings - just FYI [strathconaman] [ In reply to ]
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I suspect the differences in the two tests you saw were due to thermal differences in your trainer room, and that the battery was coincidental. I've seen no evidence of battery condition affecting powertap readings (until it goes dead of course)

I would be surprised if it did on the P2M as well though I haven't owned one long enough to say for sure.



strathconaman wrote:
I have two powertaps (a G3 and a G2) and a Power2Max classic. While my bike was on the trainer this year I put the Power2Max on, and compared against the two hubs. The P2M would start 20w high, but would end up 15w low, by the end of a 1 hour session....for both the hubs. My conclusion was the hubs were pretty close to equal.

then....

I changed the battery in the P2M. Now it tracks very close (5w high) to the two hubs. The P2M classic uses a specific coin cell (right down to the manufacturer) and I suspect it is very sensitive to input voltage. It is possible that other power meters are also sensitive in this way. DC Rainmaker indicates on his site that most power meters have a period at the beginning of a workout where they are "warming up" and reliable data can't be obtained until they are done.

I would try this as a methodology:

1. change the batteries in both.
2. make sure the settings are the same on both recording devices (zeros, recording interval, etc)
3. calibrate both at start up
4. do a controlled test where you warm up for 30 minutes. Recalibrate. do a 20 minute interval, 5 minute interval, 1 minute, 30 second, 10 second and compare the intervals vs each other rather than the entire file.

The entire file is interesting from a TSS perspective, but otherwise tells you little about your fitness.



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: Powertap G3 vs. Quarq Elsa RS - power readings - just FYI [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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So here are the garmin settings:
Fenix - record every second, GLONASS Off, Auto Pause - Can't find this setting in Fenix, but the times on the two in TP are within 6 seconds of each other, so I'm sure it auto pauses as well.

500 - Non-Zero Averaging, Smart Recording, Auto Pause - On

So I guess the difference is smart recording on the quarq (higher readings) vs. 1 second recording on the powertap (lower readings)

does it make sense now Jack? Andrew?
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Re: Powertap G3 vs. Quarq Elsa RS - power readings - just FYI [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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jackmott wrote:
the other possiblity is temperature changed a lot during the ride, the powertap autozeroed, and the quarq didn't.

It's worth noting that he's using an Elsa RS, which should have shipped with the 10K temp calibration.
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Re: Powertap G3 vs. Quarq Elsa RS - power readings - just FYI [tctritexan] [ In reply to ]
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The difference is mostly due to non-zero averaging, turn that off
and turn smart recording off too

Expect you will get much closer agreement now!

tctritexan wrote:
So here are the garmin settings:
Fenix - record every second, GLONASS Off, Auto Pause - Can't find this setting in Fenix, but the times on the two in TP are within 6 seconds of each other, so I'm sure it auto pauses as well.

500 - Non-Zero Averaging, Smart Recording, Auto Pause - On

So I guess the difference is smart recording on the quarq (higher readings) vs. 1 second recording on the powertap (lower readings)

does it make sense now Jack? Andrew?



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: Powertap G3 vs. Quarq Elsa RS - power readings - just FYI [chaparral] [ In reply to ]
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I did stop twice at gas stations to refill bottles and a handful of red lights, but not many. Tried to keep the gas on as much as possible. race simulation
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Re: Powertap G3 vs. Quarq Elsa RS - power readings - just FYI [tctritexan] [ In reply to ]
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Smart Recording on the Garmin is supposed to disable itself when a PM is detected.
https://forums.garmin.com/...smart-recording-quot
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Re: Powertap G3 vs. Quarq Elsa RS - power readings - just FYI [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks guys!
ok...turned 500 to Zero Avg. on Power, data recording every second. Hopefully this will match the fenix 3 now and I'll test it at some point and report back.

I'll message you if you want the files Jack.
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Re: Powertap G3 vs. Quarq Elsa RS - power readings - just FYI [tctritexan] [ In reply to ]
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Re: Powertap G3 vs. Quarq Elsa RS - power readings - just FYI [rijndael] [ In reply to ]
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rijndael wrote:
Smart Recording on the Garmin is supposed to disable itself when a PM is detected.
https://forums.garmin.com/...smart-recording-quot

I thought so also, but when I first used my 920xt it was still using smart recording with a PM.
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Re: Powertap G3 vs. Quarq Elsa RS - power readings - just FYI [chaparral] [ In reply to ]
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Did you look at the data file or rely on the display?
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Re: Powertap G3 vs. Quarq Elsa RS - power readings - just FYI [rijndael] [ In reply to ]
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rijndael wrote:
Did you look at the data file or rely on the display?

what is insidious is those non-zero fake average power numbers are reported in ride summaries on training peaks and garmin connect
or used to be



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: Powertap G3 vs. Quarq Elsa RS - power readings - just FYI [rijndael] [ In reply to ]
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rijndael wrote:
Did you look at the data file or rely on the display?

Well I noticed when I had trouble importing the file into golden cheetah, my older version of GC had issues that used smart recording, then I looked at the settings on the watch.
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Re: Powertap G3 vs. Quarq Elsa RS - power readings - just FYI [tctritexan] [ In reply to ]
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You said you have the 500 linked with the quarq and the Fenix3 with the powertap. Have you tried switching them to see if that makes a difference?
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Re: Powertap G3 vs. Quarq Elsa RS - power readings - just FYI [tctritexan] [ In reply to ]
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tctritexan wrote:
I did stop twice at gas stations to refill bottles and a handful of red lights, but not many. Tried to keep the gas on as much as possible. race simulation

Well if it was a race simulation, then you really should turn off auto-pause.

I just think that it will give you a more accurate measurement of what you actually did. With auto-pause it may look like you averaged 195 watts for 5 hours, but if you actually tried to do that in a race, you may not be able to.
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