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Power on climbs vs Power on Flats
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A well timed thread this morning, and a few training rides this year, have reminded me of a substantial road block I have in my triathlon riding. I struggle to create power on flat roads. When climbing and riding into strong headwinds I can make descent power, with a tail wind I can't. In calm winds and flat roads I am well short of my sustainable power in a strong head wind or on a climb.

I found this article this morning:

It answers my question. My racing history was in MTB racing, where we pedal against resistance constantly ( I raced a much higher level of MTBing then road cycling). I am good at that, not the high speed pedaling as noted in the article. However, I need to work on this to improve my TT riding. I know this is a significant limiter.

My question is what would be an ideal strategy for working on this?

Moto pacing is not an option. I thought about doing my intervals with the tail wind for practice rather than into the wind. This might help. Any other suggestions?
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Re: Power on climbs vs Power on Flats [Triagain2] [ In reply to ]
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You mentioned pedalling against resistance. There's actually more resistance (I.e. Inertial load) when pedalling downwind. Riding uphill or on a trainer has low inertial load. Do you spend a lot of time on the trainer?
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Re: Power on climbs vs Power on Flats [Triagain2] [ In reply to ]
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Re: Power on climbs vs Power on Flats [Triagain2] [ In reply to ]
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Use the 12 and 11T more.

I spend a lot, a lot a lot, of time on the trainer and rollers. So paying attention to minute terrain changes is something I need to think about a lot while riding outside. If I concentrate on my 3 sec power during a workout outside, I find myself using the 13, 12, and 11T's way more that I would "instinctively".

Oh, and there is always the "Pedal Harder!" thing too.


Twitter @achtervolger
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Re: Power on climbs vs Power on Flats [gregf83] [ In reply to ]
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I ride rollers in the winter.
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Re: Power on climbs vs Power on Flats [Triagain2] [ In reply to ]
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Re: Power on climbs vs Power on Flats [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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LOL.
I have lost a ton of weight. I am still meeting my training goals. As an example on my last workout I did 4x8's with 5 min rest and avg watts were 286,279,276,276 followed by 15min sweet spot at 234. My last tested FTP was 236. This was at the end of a 10 day work period (think Matt Dixion type training period).


My issue is I could not have average those numbers with no wind or with a tail wind. On the day I had a heavy head wind. Those intervals average around 29kmh. It is all on Strava to keep me honest.
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Re: Power on climbs vs Power on Flats [Triagain2] [ In reply to ]
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I'm confused on the question. When it comes to pacing, shouldn't ones power on a climb be the same as on the flats (generally speaking)? Isn't that the idea behind normalized power and variability index?

I'm asking because I come from a mountain bike racing back ground and the mashing during climbs habit is very very hard to break.

_________________________________
The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design.
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Re: Power on climbs vs Power on Flats [Economist] [ In reply to ]
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I am not sure either. Did you read the article in the OP? What he describes seems to apply to me. I just have trouble creating/sustaining power on the flats compared to climbs and strong headwinds.

I have been this way for years. Never hurt my mtb racing. I need to correct it now. If it is in my head, fine. But I still need a strategy of getting past it.
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Re: Power on climbs vs Power on Flats [Triagain2] [ In reply to ]
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It took me a lot of practice to get used to the idea of keeping the power to the pedals once speeds get higher. Putting the power out is no different, it's a mental hurdle to get past.
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Re: Power on climbs vs Power on Flats [Zenmaster28] [ In reply to ]
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That's what I am thinking. I need to learn to put the power out at high speeds. I mentioned modifying when I do my intervals. I am thinking I will start implementing tail wind intervals. Logistically I find it hard because I like to do out and backs and finish with a tail wind home. I will obviously have to just HTFU and get it done.
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Re: Power on climbs vs Power on Flats [Triagain2] [ In reply to ]
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Find a downwind Strava segment and see what you can do!
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Re: Power on climbs vs Power on Flats [Zenmaster28] [ In reply to ]
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I have one in mind.
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Re: Power on climbs vs Power on Flats [Triagain2] [ In reply to ]
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Examine your QA (or crank torque-cadence) plot on the flats and on climbs.
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Re: Power on climbs vs Power on Flats [RChung] [ In reply to ]
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I really do not know how to do this.

Can it be done on Garmin connect or Strava premium?
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Re: Power on climbs vs Power on Flats [Triagain2] [ In reply to ]
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I would say that you just need to train flats more and also spend more time on tt bike.
Training on flats could be a limiter, but position could also be a limiter.
It is funny to me that you say you never trained flats or were good on flats when you were an mtb racer.
The best mtb racer I know is terrific on flats and rollers. He climbs well too but he is great on flats. Because of this he can pedal and get power down on more of the course than most of his competitors.
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Re: Power on climbs vs Power on Flats [bootsie_cat] [ In reply to ]
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I was good on mountain bike flats. The thing about mountain biking (where I raced) is you don't roll for long. You always have resistance to push against, I find at high speeds finding that resistance to puch against difficult.

I understand it is in my head and I need to just learn the skill.

Of another note, I have not touched my TT bike this year. Likely won't for a few weeks as I have to be ready for a climbing camp at the end of April... Hmmmm, maybe this is where the problem lies. I like to climb (even though I go downhill much quicker)
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Re: Power on climbs vs Power on Flats [Triagain2] [ In reply to ]
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Work on developing pedal stroke/cadence that allows you to hold power.
Don't fall into the trap of just dropping it in a big gear.
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Re: Power on climbs vs Power on Flats [bootsie_cat] [ In reply to ]
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Good point. I find I get caught between gears often (currently riding 53/36 and an 11-23 cassette). I either have two grind or spin faster then I prefer. I thinki I need to focus on creating power in a higher cadence as well.

That should come with practice and tail wind intervals.
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Re: Power on climbs vs Power on Flats [Triagain2] [ In reply to ]
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Do drills that reinforce cadence- even at a z2 pace. 3x10 min z2 100-110 is really good.
Also shorter reps with less (or even zero) load at 130-140 rpm.
Do this in addition to the flatter work that will help.
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Re: Power on climbs vs Power on Flats [Triagain2] [ In reply to ]
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Have you actually done a power test on an out-and-back with a hill or headwind/tailwind scenario to test this?

My guess would be a vast majority of riders naturally push more watts into the wind or up a hill vs w/the wind or on a flat during sub threshold efforts. I know I do. But if I'm doing a full on 20 minutes or 60 minutes, the power stays pretty even regardless of the terrain/wind. Actually into a headwind during a TT or test is my least favorite scenario because I find it harder to keep a steady effort.

If you have a garmin file on an out-and-back course that shows a 20+ watt difference headwind vs tailwind and your PE was the same, then you might be on to something.

But either way I think it's just a matter of practicing in various conditions to get better at pacing. And don't sweat it if your power varies slightly with the terrain/wind direction during sub threshold efforts.
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Re: Power on climbs vs Power on Flats [Triagain2] [ In reply to ]
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I was born and raised in flat country, could TT OK but not climb. I think there is something to muscle specificity even with such a slight difference. Improving at climbing in N GA yet would prefer flat roads for fast times.

On flats and TTs, I benefit a great deal from using a fast cadence to get up to speed and then an agile cadence to maintain it. I only go slow cadence for a short distance to avoid gear shifting. Perhaps this suits me better metabolically as I can't crunch a gear much at my weight and height.

Why we all aren't the world's best swimmers, cyclists and runners is beyond me as we certainly give it thought and effort. Good luck.

Indoor Triathlete - I thought I was right, until I realized I was wrong.
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Re: Power on climbs vs Power on Flats [Triagain2] [ In reply to ]
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I also wanted to congratulate you on lost weight. Way to go! I unfortunately hit 200 this November, and thanks to training and biggest loser at work I lost 25 lbs to put me at 175.

Im on spring break now, and probably gained 5 back, but will hopefully hit 170 this year. Im impressed with how quickly you lost yours. Great job.
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Re: Power on climbs vs Power on Flats [BSUdude] [ In reply to ]
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Heading out today for short ride (in recovery week). 1 hour with a 15min sweet spot interval. I am going to ride into the wind for 35minutes (currently west at 10-15kmh) I will then turn around and with the wind performing my interval.

Should bring me back to clinic with 1 hour ride time as goal (it is a rest period ride).

Good practice for generating power at high speed.
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