Login required to started new threads

Login required to post replies

Power, effort or speed?
Quote | Reply
As I was running this morning, I was reflecting on a race that's coming up for me that has a ton of climbing on the bike. I've always, and I mean ALWAYS blown myself up on my bike legs, in all but maybe one race. I've finally been training with virtual power, and will have a power meter by the time this race rolls around. That being said, when I come upon the aforementioned hills, is there a generally accepted rule to climb based on effort, output or speed?

Again, trying my best to not kill myself on the bike again. I think my fitness is an order of magnitude better than prior years, but I still want to make sure I've enough to run a solid 10K. My opinion is constant effort, based on a relative heart rate zone, with an overall power number in mind for the ride based on my current training, which, frankly, doesn't include much in the way of hills.

Any help or confirmation of my instinct would be greatly appreciated.

As a brief aside, it seems the more informed I become about the training and racing aspects of this sport, the less I know about the training and racing aspects of this sport.

Cheers,
Robert
Quote Reply
Re: Power, effort or speed? [brklynmerckx] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
What's the expected temp at race time?

Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
DarkSpeedWorks.com.....Reviews.....Insta.....Facebook

--
Quote Reply
Re: Power, effort or speed? [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
What's the expected temp at race time?

Mid 60s to low 70s on average.
Quote Reply
Re: Power, effort or speed? [brklynmerckx] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
If it's Olympic distance or longer, I try to keep my power the same the entire race including ascending and descending. That means I'm getting passed A LOT going up hills, but instead of coasting down I'm pedaling just as hard as I was ascending. The small time benefit you receive by hammering up the hills is usually lost during the run when those "matches" you burned come back to haunt you. The only caveat is if the descent is extremely long and steep and I know I'll spin-out/coast down, I'll add that lost effort into the ascent knowing that I'll be able to recover during the descent.
Quote Reply
Re: Power, effort or speed? [Kentucky Mac] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Kentucky Mac wrote:
If it's Olympic distance or longer, I try to keep my power the same the entire race including ascending and descending. That means I'm getting passed A LOT going up hills, but instead of coasting down I'm pedaling just as hard as I was ascending. The small time benefit you receive by hammering up the hills is usually lost during the run when those "matches" you burned come back to haunt you. The only caveat is if the descent is extremely long and steep and I know I'll spin-out/coast down, I'll add that lost effort into the ascent knowing that I'll be able to recover during the descent.


At higher speeds, I think it would be beneficial for you to calculate how much power gets turned into speed.

As you increase in speed, the power required to go faster increases. This is obvious. But how how much power per mph is required downhill vs flat?

Is that even a factor? Obviously this depends on the steepness of the hill, but maybe worth looking into.
Quote Reply
Re: Power, effort or speed? [Kentucky Mac] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Kentucky Mac wrote:
If it's Olympic distance or longer, I try to keep my power the same the entire race including ascending and descending. That means I'm getting passed A LOT going up hills, but instead of coasting down I'm pedaling just as hard as I was ascending. The small time benefit you receive by hammering up the hills is usually lost during the run when those "matches" you burned come back to haunt you. The only caveat is if the descent is extremely long and steep and I know I'll spin-out/coast down, I'll add that lost effort into the ascent knowing that I'll be able to recover during the descent.
It's generally faster to go a little harder up the hill than down, maybe +/- 10 to 20%.
Quote Reply
Re: Power, effort or speed? [brklynmerckx] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Just keep riding your watts on hills keep it pancake flat
Quote Reply
Re: Power, effort or speed? [gregf83] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
gregf83 wrote:
It's generally faster to go a little harder up the hill than down, maybe +/- 10 to 20%.
Sure, if you want to have a shitty run afterwards. By all means.
Quote Reply
Re: Power, effort or speed? [brklynmerckx] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
You will almost certainly amazed after your first ride with a power meter. By that I mean that you will notice quite how much you push harder on hills. The power meter will help you hold back a bit on climbs much better than heart rate.

With not much time to get used to racing with power, I'd have 30s power, and average power on display right next to heart rate to give you something you know about alongside your new best friend.

Developing aero, fit and other fun stuff at Red is Faster
Quote Reply
Re: Power, effort or speed? [brklynmerckx] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Either effort or power would be fine.
Power is more accurate and predictable but you personally may not want to be chained to the data too much. If it was me I would just aim to ride at 90-95% of FTP.
Pacing by efforts perhaps the route to the most enjoyable experience (i.e. just getting on your bike and riding) but it requires a lot of practice to get right and from your post it sounds like it's something that you haven't got the hang of quite yet.

I would avoid pacing based on speed if there is a lot of climbing, it's amazing how slow you actually need to go on some inclines in order to stay in the right power zone. For example, 12mph on an incline may feel "slow" but you might actually be well above threshold.
Quote Reply
Re: Power, effort or speed? [Kentucky Mac] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Kentucky Mac wrote:
gregf83 wrote:
It's generally faster to go a little harder up the hill than down, maybe +/- 10 to 20%.
Sure, if you want to have a shitty run afterwards. By all means.

He said a LITTLE harder on the hills, not a LOT harder. You can go somewhat harder on the hills and not kill your run. How much depends on the distance. Folks without a power meter may not realize that they're going to L5-6 on every hill even in an IM and that can definitely kill your run.

I've tried the "isopower" thing and frankly, I'd like to see the power files of folks that claim they can do this on hilly terrain because I sure don't see it on the files I've looked at. I just don't get why you'd put out the same power on the downhills as the climbs when there's so little to gain and it's so hard to actually do. My power meter shows me that generally hitting anything more than L3 on downhills is a waste of energy unless it's a short standalone TT. Going by PE, a L4 effort on the uphill seems equivalent to a high L2-low L3 effort on the downhill to me, so I wonder how many "isopower" folks are actually using a power meter. Now a false flat downhill is another matter but I don't really count those as downhills, just slightly downward flats. But I do have three decades of experience as a roadie and I know I can safely go at a moderately higher power on the uphills and still run OK. If you've paid good attention to your aerodynamics you're flying past everyone on the downhills at an L3 effort anyway, at least that's my experience. (Then again, I can fly past many triathletes on a downhill in a resting tuck while they pedal away in their aero position.) YMMV.
Quote Reply
Re: Power, effort or speed? [Kentucky Mac] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Kentucky Mac wrote:
gregf83 wrote:
It's generally faster to go a little harder up the hill than down, maybe +/- 10 to 20%.
Sure, if you want to have a shitty run afterwards. By all means.
Perhaps a bigger factor in an Olympic distance where you don't want to spend much time above FTP, but for longer distances going a little harder should be manageable. Rappstar was climbing about 15% over AP when he won Ironman Canada so it works OK for some.
Quote Reply