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Post your swim video (of you) here (for instruction)
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i'm getting a number of PMs asking for swim help. we've had these threads before. this is another. as with anything (i.e., bike position) nothing helps us diagnose what ails you like a video. to share a video, easiest is to upload your video to youtube, then...



just paste that URL here, the one with the domain youtu.be. it'll automatically express itself as an embedded video in your post.

at least i think so.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Post your swim video (of you) here (for instruction) [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Id like to get more efficient on my swim stroke, I know I got alot of problems in the stroke, not posted in one of these before, I am doing my first Ironman and I know I can swim the distance but is like to be able to swim it well and not be too gassed after...

I'm the blue swim cap


Last edited by: fuzzhead: Apr 7, 17 11:27
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Re: Post your swim video (of you) here (for instruction) [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Who's posting feedback on here? anyone? or is it for you?

I don't wanna clutter things up if you don't want me to...

____________________________________
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<oh, I wish I had a GoPro Hero4>
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Re: Post your swim video (of you) here (for instruction) [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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everybody. go for it. i have my list for him. but i'll let you go first, you'll probably cover most of what i would've.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Post your swim video (of you) here (for instruction) [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I don't yet, won't be able to watch until sometime tonight. I only watched about 10 secs of the video while I was waiting for some reports to run at work.

I'll do something though. I have a short list already.

____________________________________
Swimming Workout of the Day: http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...ost=5784860#5784860;

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<oh, I wish I had a GoPro Hero4>
Last edited by: JasoninHalifax: Apr 7, 17 12:18
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Re: Post your swim video (of you) here (for instruction) [fuzzhead] [ In reply to ]
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let's start with this:

- about 2:15 in to the video it's slo mo of you swimming. it LOOKS like with your right hand you do what a lot of people do, which is to sharply, abruptly, shift your hand (inward) during the pull. i think it comes from early instruction to swim with an S pattern. i don't know if you do that with the other hand.

i'm happy to hear other folks' views on this, but i say just yank back. let the S pattern or the pulling-still-water thing take care of itself. just make a paddle, from the elbow to the fingertip, and yank straight back.

- second, again i'm willing to hear dissenting views, but it seems to me your head sits a bit high in the water. not quite as bad as a water polo player, but still it looks a little high. this sinks your legs and then you have to kick like a mutherkicker to break the plane of the surface (and probably with too much bend in the knee).

my sense of it is:

1. swim downhill. push your head down in front.
2. add to your drills a hundred yards or so of swimming with a 2-beat kick. if you can't keep your feet on the surface with a 2-beat kick then you have a body position problem.

otherwise it looks okay. i don't want to load you up with stuff. those 2 things. but i'm eager to hear what jason says, who's a better swimmer than i am.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Post your swim video (of you) here (for instruction) [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Re: Post your swim video (of you) here (for instruction) [brian1986] [ In reply to ]
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yours is easy. band the ankles. tie them together. put a pull buoy in there. go. do this for 200yd every workout. when the ankles are unbanded, concentrate on the tops of your feet ALWAYS facing the bottom of the pool. let's talk again after 5 sessions of that. then we'll tackle the next thing.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Post your swim video (of you) here (for instruction) [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
let's start with this:

- about 2:15 in to the video it's slo mo of you swimming. it LOOKS like with your right hand you do what a lot of people do, which is to sharply, abruptly, shift your hand (inward) during the pull. i think it comes from early instruction to swim with an S pattern. i don't know if you do that with the other hand.

i'm happy to hear other folks' views on this, but i say just yank back. let the S pattern or the pulling-still-water thing take care of itself. just make a paddle, from the elbow to the fingertip, and yank straight back.

- second, again i'm willing to hear dissenting views, but it seems to me your head sits a bit high in the water. not quite as bad as a water polo player, but still it looks a little high. this sinks your legs and then you have to kick like a mutherkicker to break the plane of the surface (and probably with too much bend in the knee).

my sense of it is:

1. swim downhill. push your head down in front.
2. add to your drills a hundred yards or so of swimming with a 2-beat kick. if you can't keep your feet on the surface with a 2-beat kick then you have a body position problem.

otherwise it looks okay. i don't want to load you up with stuff. those 2 things. but i'm eager to hear what jason says, who's a better swimmer than i am.

Yes, his right arm has bad crossover during his pull. Can't see the other arm. The idea is to pull straight back as much as possible, as Dan says. One other possible cause is that it takes less work to pull (and is less effective, of course) by slipping your hand from side to side during the pull.

His hands enter too close to midline in front of his head. Try to enter in front of your shoulder (think entering at 10 o'clock and 2 o'clock, and you'll likely be where you want to be.

Kicking has nothing to do with avoiding sinking legs. Period. If you are kicking to keep your legs up, you are doing it wrong. Holding a high head position doesn't cause your legs to drop, either, if you are keeping your legs at the surface by using the correct muscles in the first place.

Go to 1:15 of the below video and check out the waterline that is just above Paltrinieri's goggles. Every one of these swimmers has a high head position: none of them pushes their head down. At 2:15, you'll see Paltrinieri underwater, and his easy 2-beat kick likely where it should be despite a high head.



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"i disagree with your analysis [or judgment], nevertheless you have the responsibility of moderating this board so i honor your authority to make the moderating decisions."
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Re: Post your swim video (of you) here (for instruction) [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
yours is easy. band the ankles. tie them together. put a pull buoy in there. go. do this for 200yd every workout. when the ankles are unbanded, concentrate on the tops of your feet ALWAYS facing the bottom of the pool. let's talk again after 5 sessions of that. then we'll tackle the next thing.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

Post #18 of 19

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"i disagree with your analysis [or judgment], nevertheless you have the responsibility of moderating this board so i honor your authority to make the moderating decisions."
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Re: Post your swim video (of you) here (for instruction) [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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which part do you disagree with? my main issue with this and many other swimmers is the leg splay that automarically comes with the bend in the hip that's a sure trait of adult onset swimmers. banding the ankles forces the swimmer to confront this, because that bend/twist in the hip will betray itself in a fishtail motion when the ankles are banded (i.e., when the legs can no longer splay). solving that fishtailing requires the swimmer to cease that bending at the waist while breathing.

at least in theory.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Post your swim video (of you) here (for instruction) [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks Dan. I'll try that and report back.
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Re: Post your swim video (of you) here (for instruction) [fuzzhead] [ In reply to ]
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I've jotted down a few thoughts, but before I begin, a couple of caveats and buyer bewares. I'm a swimmer, been doing it a long time, in all kinds of different conditions. I'm not a coach. Never have been a coach. I've had a lot of different swim coaches over my swimming career, often several different coaches within the same season, and different styles of coaching at different phases in my progression. I believe that there is no single style that works for everyone, but there are certain fundamentals that ALL good swimmers do, and some things that change depending on the swimmer in question. For example, a tall swimmer can and should use a lower stroke rate than a short swimmer.

I'm looking for things that need to be fixed. That doesn't say the how to fix part of the equation, that's up to you and your coach. I can offer suggestions, but not every suggestion will work for everyone, we all learn in different ways and something that clicks for one person may be useless for another.

Lastly, this is for lightheir, because I know he'll read this. Power matters, and more power in the stroke is always good. That's why we train, to generate more power at any given effort level. I will not address power directly in any of this. If you want to increase power, there are other threads that will do that much more effectively.

OK, lets go.

First off, there will be an inherent limitation to anything I say, because the way you are swimming in that video does not look like it is sustainable for 3800m, or 1900m, or 1500m, or even 750m. That looks like a sprint effort to me. The kick is way too big, too much effort is going into it. I'm a kicker when I swim, and I don't think I could sustain anything like that kick for a 400, let alone a full IM swim. So I doubt that you can.

This is Dan's party, but I would prefer to see the middle 100 or 200 of a 1000 TT. I want to see what you look like when fatigue sets in.

Overall, it's not bad. you have good shoulder rotation, you aren't overrotating on the breath, you don't have a dead spot when you pull. That's good stuff, so when you are working on what needs to get fixed, don't wreck those things.

The 2 biggest things I see are dropped legs and dropped elbows. That's what needs to get fixed most. The kick is also way too big, but that's probably because you are sprinting.

Related to the dropped legs, you are bending at the waist, and the head is too high. You also don't get much extension at the front of the stroke from the shoulder. You should get your shoulder up close to your ear at the peak extension. Look at the bottom of the pool. You don't need to see forward in the pool (that's what the stripe on the bottom is for) and you don't need to see forward under the water in an open water swim (all you'll see is bubbles anyway, you lift your head to sight). The water should break on the top of your head, not your forehead. Getting your head down and getting more reach on the front of the stroke will help to get your feet up.

Bending at the waist, you probably have tight hip flexors. Work on getting those loosened up.

dropped elbows, you are entering elbow first, reaching forward, then pulling your elbow back. This causes you to slip a LOT of water. fixing the dropped elbows is like shifting to a bigger gear on a bike, your turnover will probably drop a bit, but you'll gain in distance per stroke.

Make sure the first thing to hit the water is your middle finger, then on the catch get your hand as low as you can before you start coming back with your arm. imagine that you are pulling yourself onto a ledge above your head.

Lastly, the kick is too big, causing a ton of drag. think "tap-dancer" not "place kicker".

I'm sure I can find more, but that's enough for now....



fuzzhead wrote:
Id like to get more efficient on my swim stroke, I know I got alot of problems in the stroke, not posted in one of these before, I am doing my first Ironman and I know I can swim the distance but is like to be able to swim it well and not be too gassed after...

I'm the blue swim cap


Ive got some thoughts, I haven't

____________________________________
Swimming Workout of the Day: http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...ost=5784860#5784860;

Favourite Swim Sets: http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...m.cgi?;post=5004659;
<oh, I wish I had a GoPro Hero4>
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Re: Post your swim video (of you) here (for instruction) [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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How long is the offer open for? I'd love someone to critique me but I need to have a video done first.
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Re: Post your swim video (of you) here (for instruction) [HandHeartCrown] [ In reply to ]
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we're not going anywhere. take your time.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Post your swim video (of you) here (for instruction) [brian1986] [ In reply to ]
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yup, first thing is to get those boat anchors you call feet under control.

After that, work on not leading the pull with your elbow.

____________________________________
Swimming Workout of the Day: http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...ost=5784860#5784860;

Favourite Swim Sets: http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...m.cgi?;post=5004659;
<oh, I wish I had a GoPro Hero4>
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Re: Post your swim video (of you) here (for instruction) [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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3 years ago, I improved a bit since then but not too much.





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Re: Post your swim video (of you) here (for instruction) [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Any advice welcome.

Last race was fresh water OWS 1500m in 30 minutes. HIM in May, IM in december.

Top View

https://giphy.com/gifs/FOMl9XkGGUHxS


Underwater View
https://giphy.com/gifs/mZ8kkauQEOqI0
Last edited by: Gonzorini: Apr 8, 17 2:52
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Re: Post your swim video (of you) here (for instruction) [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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current level indication:
-started swimming 2 years ago
-swim 3x a week 1 hour with triathlon club (2400 m), 1x half hour lunch swim (1500 m)
-did 10x100 scm 2 minute leave interval. finished in 1:35 but really needed the 25 secs to rest

please, don't hold back ;)
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Re: Post your swim video (of you) here (for instruction) [longtrousers] [ In reply to ]
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you started swimming 3 years ago? pretty good swimmer if that's the case. what i really like is that your breathing action doesn't torque your body, manifesting itself in your kick. from the waist down things look spot on, at least for an adult onset swimmer. also, your catch is great, your head position is fine. there's not too much to critique.

there is one thing you do, and i'm glad you do it only for the sake of the discussion we're about to have now about it. finis makes not one, but two different paddles designed to keep you from bending at the wrist. you obviously don't own those paddles ;-)

while some disagree with my assessment of this (which is fine, and i'm happy to hear opposing views, which might be more accurate than mine) it seems to me the value of early vertical forearm (EVF) is to provide the swimmer with the greatest possible surface area pulling the greatest amount of water directly backward for the longest distance per stroke. if bending at the wrist creates an even earlier paddle, as long as the hand remains flat against the water, pointing directly backward, as the elbow bends and the forearm becomes part of this pulling surface, is that bad? finis must think so. but i can't see why.

this doesn't let you off the hook. your hand doesn't travel straight back. each hand first travels inward, toward the centerline. i've never seen that. but that's not the big issue. your sin is that you never come close to achieving anything like EVF. you treat your hand as the cup you use to pull water. your elbow remains dropped and low in the water. you never achieve that "paddle" or pulling surface that begins at the elbow and extends to the fingertip.



watch this video. slow it down to half-speed (click that icon that looks like a gear while the video is playing). THAT is EVF. in my opinion, if you master THIS, it will transform your stroke and your speed.

i can't find anything else to critique.

oh, and that's an interesting pool. are those glass walls? i don't know how i feel about that ;-/


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Post your swim video (of you) here (for instruction) [IvarAlmere] [ In reply to ]
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i have two comments but i'm sure i'm missing some things, so beyond what i'll say below i'm going to let some other folks critique your stroke because i don't see much glaringly wrong for someone only swimming for 2 years.

the one thing i WOULD say is that oxygen is your friend. what i hope is that you breathe every stroke when you race a triathon, that is, if you breathe on the left then you breathe virtually every opportunity you can on the left (or on the right if you're a right side breather).

when you give us a video and you don't breathe, this means 2 things: first, that you are a good symmetric swimmer. that's good. but second, it robs us of the ability to see what bad things you do when you breathe (and the action during breathing is what really messes up a lot of adult onset swimmers). so, best in the future to give us the video that shows you doing what you will be doing when you are actually racing.

one thing i REALLY like about your stroke is how your hand stays near the surface during the extend phase, right after the catch. i think, tho, that you lose a bit of the value of that great ability you have by not creating that broad pulling surface. watch your own video, then watch the video i embedded in the post just above of grant hackett. you and hackett share a great extend phase (some people are offended if i call it the "glide" phase because they think that imputes inactivity or rest or something to that part of the stroke, so i call it the "extend" phase to appease these folks). it's when the pull begins that hackett's stroke goes in one direction and yours goes in the other. yes, this is HARD to do. but you've done pretty well up to this point in your swimming, and if you really do maintain that posture during the extend phase of the stroke then the only thing left for you is to take this step in your progression.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Post your swim video (of you) here (for instruction) [Gonzorini] [ In reply to ]
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you're going to get so much faster! you are a paddlewheel. imagine 2 modes of propulsion in watercraft: an old style steam-powered riverboat, like mark twain might have ridden aboard on the mississippi. and a canoe. in a canoe you reach forward, drop that canoe paddle in vertically, and then pull straight back.

the paddlewheel has propulsive surfaces that hit the water facing straight down, and then arc through the water, only pushing straight back at one small, discrete moment during each cycle. that is you.

the 2 things you must do:

1. your arms right now are like opposing propulsive surfaces on a paddlewheel. if you watch videos of good swimmers swim, they don't swim that way. after the catch, the hand stays there, almost immobile, near the surface of the water, and doesn't begin its pull until the hand of the recovering arm is at about ear level. only THEN does the pull begin. you need to spend some time, even a couple hundred yards per workout, emulating THIS technique. maybe not full catch-up (where one hand touches the other out in front before the pull begins), but at a minimum not beginning your pull until the recovering had reaches ear level.

2. you need to be a canoe paddle, not a riverboat paddle. you need to form a pulling surface from the elbow to the fingertip as early in the stroke as you can and then pull straight back against the water (just like a canoe paddle).

imagine if somebody would've come along in 1850 and thought to place those riverboat paddles on two axles, creating something like a tank tread. imagine how much more efficient that might have been, with those pulling surfaces pulling straight back for a long distance rather than making a half circle in the water. that's what we need to do with you.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Last edited by: Slowman: Apr 8, 17 7:59
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Re: Post your swim video (of you) here (for instruction) [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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This was for a local swim 6 course I did. Six lessons in total. Including a video analyse. I'm having some trouble finding info and applying about the catch and pull. This is something i need some coaching with. The internet has been a good source but there is a limit.

For the video I was concentrating at my stroke. That's why I did not breath that much. Normally I breath every two strokes.

Funny thing is that one of the advice was that my hand should be lower. 20 cm below the surface. So this gets me doubting a little bit.
Last edited by: IvarAlmere: Apr 8, 17 11:59
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Re: Post your swim video (of you) here (for instruction) [IvarAlmere] [ In reply to ]
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A few posts up you'll see I embedded a video of grant hackett. If your hand does what his does I think you'll be okay. Your hand should drift down about like his drifts down before commencing the pull.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Post your swim video (of you) here (for instruction) [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Here are a few for critique and feedback. May not be the best camera views, angles, but hopeful it will give you enough of a picture. Most are just in the 5-6 second range. Just got the camera today and still feeling it out. On another note found a great use for some left over quartz countertop from the kitchen remodel as it made a great base and weight for the cam. Thanks in advance.

Regards,








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