Tweet from @ammattipyoraily: "Stage 8. Ax-3-Domaines (first 7.85 km, 8.30 %, 651 m). Chris Froome: 21 min 41 sec, 21.72 Kph, VAM; 1801 m/h, 6.37 W/kg [DrF]"

Couple tweets with numbers.

23:14 for Ax-3-Domaines, VAM of 1715 m/h, Ferrari's #power model calculates 6.3 W/kg, CPL 6.5 W/kg. Third fastest in history #TDF

Stage 8. Ax-3-Domaines (first 7.85 km, 8.30 %, 651 m). Chris Froome: 21 min 41 sec, 21.72 Kph, VAM; 1801 m/h, 6.37 W/kg [DrF].

1801m/h...That's funny. Sigh.

OK, what did Contador do on Verbier a few years ago and what did he do today? I'm kind of interested in knowing if we are seeing a doped version then and undoped one now ?

Around 1850...Pantani was in the low 1800 in Joux Plane and Alpe d'Huez. Armstrong was just under 1800.

Taking into account the unknowns about Froome's weight, CdA, Crr, drivetrain efficiency and wind conditions, I wouldn't give too much credibility to those W/kg figures

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Is it bad that I'm now hoping for some Rasmussen-like drama at this years Tour?? To be clear, I'm thinking more of the early departure variety than the appallingly pathetic individual TT type drama.

The VAM is pretty clear though...and in the 1700m you already have a big red flag. At 1800m....

Sure. But one may want to take into account how two riders from the same team were able to utterly humiliate the best climbers in the world.

If Sky thought the grumbling and accusations were bad last year, I think performances like today's will make them look back fondly on 2012 as the good old days.

The other thing that makes me nervous is Wiggins. Out with an injury but a healthy Wiggins would likely have resulted in 3 Sky riders out in front. coupled with the poor lead up in the classics. Last year the reasoning is that they train better, but cratering in the classics kinda puts that to bed.

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Styrrell

Third fastest after twenty years of blood vector doping says it all really.

I wonder what the standard clean argument will be now that the "climbing speeds are down" argument is no longer viable.

This sport--if you can call it that--sucks.

Not to mention one of the cleanest, least suspicious riders of all time finished third today. Time to revisit clinicaltrials.gov to see what's out in testing right now...:(

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So Contador, 1:45 down, 23:26 for 651m puts his VAM today at 1666m today. As for Valverde in 3rd....

Can we give Lance back his 7 titles now, what a joke today was.

OK, just did a calculation. Richie Porte at 1733m.

In fairness, today was a 20ish minute climb vs 40+ minute climb (Alpe d'Huez) or 60ish minute climb (Ventoux).

Maybe we should wait till Ventoux and get the full 1 hour data before people from Sky get totally thrown under the bus. Not trying to apologize for Sky, but it looks too much like the Postal train or perhaps a bit like the Phonak train on Ventoux at the Dauphine in 2004 (1639m).

Anyway, Iban Mayo was >1700 as was Tyler.

Results1 Iban Mayo (Spa) Euskaltel-Euskadi 55.51.49 (23.202 km/h) 2 Tyler Hamilton (USA) Phonak Hearing Systems 0.35.26 3 Oscar Sevilla (Spa) Phonak Hearing Systems 1.03.09 4 Juan Miguel Mercado (Spa) Quick.Step-Davitamon 1.48.44 5 Lance Armstrong (USA) US Postal presented by Berry Floor 1.57.89 6 Inigo Landaluze (Spa) Euskaltel-Euskadi 2.22.75 7 José Gutierrez (Spa) Phonak Hearing Systems 2.44.09 8 Levi Leipheimer (USA) Rabobank 3.21.18 9 Michael Rasmussen (Den) Rabobank 3.33.38 10 Stéphane Goubert (Fra) Ag2R Prevoyance 3.35.81 11 Oscar Pereiro (Spa) Phonak Hearing Systems 3.55.55 12 David Moncoutie (Fra) Cofidis, le credit par Telephone 3.59.03 13 Cyril Dessel (Fra) Phonak Hearing Systems 4.03.20 14 Floyd Landis (USA) US Postal presented by Berry Floor 4.09.14 15 José Azevedo (Por) US Postal presented by Berry Floor 4.18.24 16 Christophe Moreau (Fra) Credit Agricole 4.37.09 17 Michael Rogers (Aus) Quick.Step-Davitamon 4.44.95 18 Carlos Sastre (Spa) Team CSC 5.08.52 19 Sandy Casar (Fra) FDJeux.com 5.29.49 20 Victor Hugo Pena (Col) US Postal presented by Berry Floor 5.29.88

What I want to know is what would Greg Lemond's time be in his prime. :) That might be a good benchmark and then up it a little bit each year for *natural* progress. Somewhat described here.
http://www.sportsscientists.com/...o-surpass-doped.html

As a point of reference in the first Ventoux climb, Charlie Gaul did it in 62 minutes. Pre EPO era for sure....sub 1600m per hour rate.

To be fair, at least on Col de Pailheres it looked like they had a pretty significant tail wind. Even on slopes like that it could mean a 30W difference, enough to bring it down from mutant to merely incredible. Still doesn't explain how both Froom and Porte can just sail away from all the rest... but that's just the cynic in me, refusing to "believe in miracles".

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When I channel my hate to productive, I don't find it hard to impress

I think it is down to the Sky fan boys thinking this is legit. Just ridiculous..

If we derate this by 5% on account of being a 20 min climb, then it is more like 1700m. So "red flag"?

I'm generally curious why you think sport will (ever) be clean when multi million dollar contracts are on the line? Sport = business. Just enjoy the circus.

Forget about VAM. Third fastest time ever. And the time that a fully doped Armstrong was a few seconds faster on this climb was a much easier stage.

It's still the 3rd fastest time up Ax-3-Domaines. Faster than a lot of great, doped up riders.

So what do you guys think about Contrador today:

1. Doped but not on form, or
2. Clean and off form (whatever that means