Physiology: Time to train/detrain energy systems (AeT/AnT) & optimum lactate curve for ironman

scandinavianguy

Mar 2, 15 3:17

Post #1 of 37 (8848 views)

Hi!

Based on the great discussion in the Seiler polarized training thread. I am wondering if anyone has solid data on how fast the adaptions occur, where the body changes its primary use of energy? I get that lots of low intensity training slowly teaches the body to use less lactate intensive energy, which carries over to race tempo (higher threshold at same lactate production) and that the hard intervals build your top end. http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...ew_flat;post=4931310

But then there was mention that, if anaerobic capacity is too high (aka the lactate curve is more sprint like) that this coach Olbrecht throws in "a couple workouts near the threshold during the pre-competition" which raises the threshold for that athlete and shifts the lactate curve to the right, "not because the aerobic system is stronger but because the anaerobic system is weaker". A "couple workouts" does not sound like it a very prolonged process, more like a few weeks at most.

I also recall Desert Dude, if I understood his comment correctly, mentioning that some amateurs shoot themselves in the foot by first properly training the low lactate systems during base, but then doing too much threshold work close to competition, thereby teaching the body to use more lactate type energy systems. This would be the opposite from the Olbrecht example above, where the athlete was too reliant on anaerobic energy to begin with.

So I am wondering how fast these changes in energy system usage occur, if it takes long time to build up aerobic capacity, how fast can threshold work thow this off? Say if a marathoner started doing sprint training, how soon before the marathon endurance wears off and gets replaced by lactate-fuelled speed? Or is there a time window, where you can increase threshold speed before it starts messing with endurance type fitness?

Based on this, which would be the optimal lactate curve for an ironman race, would that be marathoner in the above chart, with some top end reserves for the swim?

I am not schooled in exersice physiology so apologies for my lack of knowledge. Thanks

Re: Physiology: Time to train/detrain energy systems (AeT/AnT) & optimum lactate curve for ironman [scandinavianguy] [ In reply to ]

Mar 2, 15 4:17

Post #2 of 37 (8822 views)

1. Rates (time constants, half-lives) of adaptation for all performance parameters are similar (John Holloszy - might want to google that name - would argue teleologically that this is an evolutionary necessity.) OTOH, the magnitude or scope of adaptation is not, nor is the physiological 'cost' of pursuing such adaptations.

2. Don't be misled by those who think they can read lactate curves like goat entrails.

Re: Physiology: Time to train/detrain energy systems (AeT/AnT) & optimum lactate curve for ironman [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]

Mar 2, 15 4:36

Post #3 of 37 (8800 views)

Andrew Coggan wrote:

2. Don't be misled by those who think they can read lactate curves like goat entrails.

Man....I am glad I didn't have a mouth full of water when I read that. :-)

Re: Physiology: Time to train/detrain energy systems (AeT/AnT) & optimum lactate curve for ironman [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]

scandinavianguy

Mar 2, 15 5:10

Post #4 of 37 (8777 views)

1. Rates (time constants, half-lives) of adaptation for all performance parameters are similar

Thanks for replying! So if I follow you, it is not the case that anareobic adaptions occur faster, nor that they stay in place shorter?

John Holloszy - might want to google that name

Did, now I only see lots of rats running on treadmills with sweatbands. Has his 60s point that in terms of volume at low intensities, more is more, been contested, or is it an established fact? http://jap.physiology.org/content/56/5/1260

OTOH, the magnitude or scope of adaptation is not, nor is the physiological 'cost' of pursuing such adaptations.

Meaning that intensity is harder on the body but causes changes of greater magnitude?

2. Don't be misled by those who think they can read lactate curves like goat entrails.

Haha, will try not to, considering purchasing a simple lactate meter to get more detailed outside confirmation that training works and how it works, other than observing lower HR at same/higher pace/watts over time.

Sorry to come across as a first year student asking basic questions.

Re: Physiology: Time to train/detrain energy systems (AeT/AnT) & optimum lactate curve for ironman [scandinavianguy] [ In reply to ]

Mar 2, 15 5:25

Post #5 of 37 (8754 views)

I had a period in 2013 where I went from lower intensity higher volume, to adding in a lot more anaerobic work.

I don't know what happened to my lactate curves but I know that my sustainable aerobic power did not decrease due to it.

Sometimes it is more simple and direct to simply measure that which you are trying to improve.

Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Re: Physiology: Time to train/detrain energy systems (AeT/AnT) & optimum lactate curve for ironman [scandinavianguy] [ In reply to ]

Mar 2, 15 7:06

Post #6 of 37 (8683 views)

Quote:

So I am wondering how fast these changes in energy system usage occur, if it takes long time to build up aerobic capacity, how fast can threshold work thow this off?

We have a section on our website that addresses this. It is straight out of Olbrecht's book.

http://www.lactate.com/...pensation/index.html

According to Olbrecht, changes to the anaerobic capacity happen faster than changes to the aerobic capacity except after detraining of aerobic capacity then there are quick responses to training. There is also the difference of building up anaerobic capacity or lowering it.

For example, base swim training is about 95% aerobic for 1 and 2 minute events but as the athlete gets nearer to the big meet, more high intensity sets are added to increase speed for the major meets. This adaptation, building anaerobic capacity, takes about 2-4 weeks while building aerobic capacity is a slow process that takes years.

Quote:

Don't be misled by those who think they can read lactate curves like goat entrails.

Of course some of these goat herders have supervised goats that have won over a hundred World Championship and Olympic medals. See

https://www.youtube.com/...amp;feature=youtu.be

for how one reads entrails. (video is a little dramatic because it was done for a local CC course.)

And here is another

http://systembasedtraining.com/...your-blood-wont-lie/

Mumbo Jumbo or maybe interesting insight - take your pick

---------------

Jerry Cosgrove

Sports Resource Group
http://www.lactate.com
https://twitter.com/@LactatedotCom

Last edited by: Jerryc: Mar 2, 15 7:26

Re: Physiology: Time to train/detrain energy systems (AeT/AnT) & optimum lactate curve for ironman [scandinavianguy] [ In reply to ]

Mar 2, 15 7:07

Post #7 of 37 (8679 views)

The Olbrecht book is long on ideas but short on direct on-point evidence. As such I take it as the informed opinion of a respected practitioner. So while I appreciate the positions and accept that he finds them to be true, I don't take it as the final truth.

The detraining section in Inigo Mujika's endurance book on the other lays out how central adaptations in the heart are on different time frames than peripheral adaptations like forming mitochondria and capillarization. Though I don't necessarily see that either of those adaptations necessarily have a direct relationship to low or high lactate exercise or different time decays of low lactate or high lactate exercise ability.

Re: Physiology: Time to train/detrain energy systems (AeT/AnT) & optimum lactate curve for ironman [Kevin in MD] [ In reply to ]

Mar 2, 15 7:39

Post #8 of 37 (8648 views)

Kevin in MD wrote:

The Olbrecht book is long on ideas but short on direct on-point evidence. As such I take it as the informed opinion of a respected practitioner. So while I appreciate the positions and accept that he finds them to be true, I don't take it as the final truth.

His opinions also seem to be heavily biased by his work with swimmers, many of whom compete at durations requiring both significant contributions from sustainable and non-sustainable sources of energy.

Kevin in MD wrote:

The detraining section in Inigo Mujika's endurance book on the other lays out how central adaptations in the heart are on different time frames than peripheral adaptations like forming mitochondria and capillarization. Though I don't necessarily see that either of those adaptations necessarily have a direct relationship to low or high lactate exercise or different time decays of low lactate or high lactate exercise ability.

Don't confuse the time-course of changes with detraining from the time-course of changes with training.

Re: Physiology: Time to train/detrain energy systems (AeT/AnT) & optimum lactate curve for ironman [jackmott] [ In reply to ]

Mar 2, 15 7:40

Post #9 of 37 (8645 views)

jackmott wrote:

Sometimes it is more simple and direct to simply measure that which you are trying to improve.

+1

The best predctor of performance is performance itself, training is testing and testing is training, that which gets measured gets improved, yadda, yadda, yadda.

Last edited by: Andrew Coggan: Mar 2, 15 7:40

Re: Physiology: Time to train/detrain energy systems (AeT/AnT) & optimum lactate curve for ironman [scandinavianguy] [ In reply to ]

Mar 2, 15 7:44

Post #10 of 37 (8638 views)

scandinavianguy wrote:

1. Rates (time constants, half-lives) of adaptation for all performance parameters are similar

Thanks for replying! So if I follow you, it is not the case that anareobic adaptions occur faster, nor that they stay in place shorter?

No, it's just that it hurts more to maximize such adaptations, and the scope or magnitude for improvement tends to be smaller ("sprinters are born, not made"). That leaves people w/ the impression that such adaptations are more ephemeral in nature.

scandinavianguy wrote:

John Holloszy - might want to google that name

Did, now I only see lots of rats running on treadmills with sweatbands. Has his 60s point that in terms of volume at low intensities, more is more, been contested, or is it an established fact? http://jap.physiology.org/content/56/5/1260

I don't know how you got that from that paper, but Holloszy is one of the giants in the field of exercise physiology.

scandinavianguy wrote:

OTOH, the magnitude or scope of adaptation is not, nor is the physiological 'cost' of pursuing such adaptations.

Meaning that intensity is harder on the body but causes changes of greater magnitude?

Harder, but tending to cause smaller improvements, at least over the intermediate term.

scandinavianguy wrote:

2. Don't be misled by those who think they can read lactate curves like goat entrails.

Haha, will try not to, considering purchasing a simple lactate meter to get more detailed outside confirmation that training works and how it works, other than observing lower HR at same/higher pace/watts over time.

Save your money.

Re: Physiology: Time to train/detrain energy systems (AeT/AnT) & optimum lactate curve for ironman [Jerryc] [ In reply to ]

Mar 2, 15 7:45

Post #11 of 37 (8637 views)

Jerryc wrote:

According to Olbrecht, changes to the anaerobic capacity happen faster than changes to the aerobic capacity

Olbrecht is wrong.

Last edited by: Andrew Coggan: Mar 2, 15 7:46

Re: Physiology: Time to train/detrain energy systems (AeT/AnT) & optimum lactate curve for ironman [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]

Mar 2, 15 8:57

Post #12 of 37 (8575 views)

Andrew Coggan wrote:

Jerryc wrote:

According to Olbrecht, changes to the anaerobic capacity happen faster than changes to the aerobic capacity

Olbrecht is wrong.

Evidence please.

Re: Physiology: Time to train/detrain energy systems (AeT/AnT) & optimum lactate curve for ironman [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]

Mar 2, 15 9:03

Post #13 of 37 (8564 views)

Andrew Coggan wrote:

Kevin in MD wrote:

The Olbrecht book is long on ideas but short on direct on-point evidence. As such I take it as the informed opinion of a respected practitioner. So while I appreciate the positions and accept that he finds them to be true, I don't take it as the final truth.

His opinions also seem to be heavily biased by his work with swimmers, many of whom compete at durations requiring both significant contributions from sustainable and non-sustainable sources of energy.

Kevin in MD wrote:

The detraining section in Inigo Mujika's endurance book on the other lays out how central adaptations in the heart are on different time frames than peripheral adaptations like forming mitochondria and capillarization. Though I don't necessarily see that either of those adaptations necessarily have a direct relationship to low or high lactate exercise or different time decays of low lactate or high lactate exercise ability.

Don't confuse the time-course of changes with detraining from the time-course of changes with training.

Triathletes swim run and cycle.

Possibly Olbrecht's ideas don't translate to cycling anymore than your ideas translate to running and swimming and other endurance sports?

Your ideas are possibly just as biased by your work with cyclists.

Olbrecht has trained a considerable number of top class athletes. You have trained yourself and your wife.

Have you considered the possibility that it is you who is wrong?

Re: Physiology: Time to train/detrain energy systems (AeT/AnT) & optimum lactate curve for ironman [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]

Mar 2, 15 9:05

Post #14 of 37 (8561 views)

Andrew Coggan wrote:

scandinavianguy wrote:

1. Rates (time constants, half-lives) of adaptation for all performance parameters are similar

Thanks for replying! So if I follow you, it is not the case that anareobic adaptions occur faster, nor that they stay in place shorter?

No, it's just that it hurts more to maximize such adaptations, and the scope or magnitude for improvement tends to be smaller ("sprinters are born, not made"). That leaves people w/ the impression that such adaptations are more ephemeral in nature.

scandinavianguy wrote:

John Holloszy - might want to google that name

Did, now I only see lots of rats running on treadmills with sweatbands. Has his 60s point that in terms of volume at low intensities, more is more, been contested, or is it an established fact? http://jap.physiology.org/content/56/5/1260

I don't know how you got that from that paper, but Holloszy is one of the giants in the field of exercise physiology.

scandinavianguy wrote:

OTOH, the magnitude or scope of adaptation is not, nor is the physiological 'cost' of pursuing such adaptations.

Meaning that intensity is harder on the body but causes changes of greater magnitude?

Harder, but tending to cause smaller improvements, at least over the intermediate term.

scandinavianguy wrote:

2. Don't be misled by those who think they can read lactate curves like goat entrails.

Haha, will try not to, considering purchasing a simple lactate meter to get more detailed outside confirmation that training works and how it works, other than observing lower HR at same/higher pace/watts over time.

Save your money.

Save your money for what? WKO 4?

Re: Physiology: Time to train/detrain energy systems (AeT/AnT) & optimum lactate curve for ironman [Trev] [ In reply to ]

Mar 2, 15 9:26

Post #15 of 37 (8534 views)

Stop trolling.

I still have a few questions for you to address in a previous thread :)

Post deleted by Trev [ In reply to ]

Mar 2, 15 11:02

Post #16 of 37 (8474 views)

Last edited by: Trev: Mar 2, 15 14:27

Re: Physiology: Time to train/detrain energy systems (AeT/AnT) & optimum lactate curve for ironman [Jerryc] [ In reply to ]

Mar 2, 15 11:31

Post #17 of 37 (8451 views)

Jerryc wrote:

Of course some of these goat herders have supervised goats that have won over a hundred World Championship and Olympic medals. See

https://www.youtube.com/...amp;feature=youtu.be

for how one reads entrails. (video is a little dramatic because it was done for a local CC course.)

And here is another

http://systembasedtraining.com/...your-blood-wont-lie/

Mumbo Jumbo or maybe interesting insight - take your pick

---------------[/quote

From the second link comes the quote of the day. It rings true with many coaches.

"Coaching is a difficult job and on many levels. As a training advisor and physiologist to many coaches and athletes it has been a challenge to get non-scientist coaches to understand that coaching can be �art� or �philosophy� but training is science. Most coaches, who are not physiologists do not understand the difference simply because they do not know what they do not know, which is science."

BoulderCyclingCoach.com

Re: Physiology: Time to train/detrain energy systems (AeT/AnT) & optimum lactate curve for ironman [Jerryc] [ In reply to ]

scandinavianguy

Mar 2, 15 11:57

Post #18 of 37 (8425 views)

Thanks, checked the website, very informative! It is a fascinating thought that you could micromanage training adaptions through frequent bloodwork.

I am curious however about how people tend to trust different kinds of arguments --> "have won over a hundred World Championship and Olympic medals"

No denying thats impressive, but in itself not "proof" for details in the underlying theory. To extrapolate, it could be that he gets to work with exceptionally gifted genetic outliers. Random controlled studies on the other hand provide more proof in the scientific sense since they better isolate factors, but are perhaps less immediately useable precisely for that reason

Would be interesting to know if the controversy stems from different cultures. Does Olbrecht do the academic circuit these days, going to conferences and publishing papers? If not, I can understand how active researchers view him as an outsider.

But then again, who wins in a "my medals against your citations" contest?

Personally my goal is to make the most out of my time training based on sound advice, and as a novice athlete, there is just so much to learn!

Last edited by: scandinavianguy: Mar 2, 15 11:59

Re: Physiology: Time to train/detrain energy systems (AeT/AnT) & optimum lactate curve for ironman [scandinavianguy] [ In reply to ]

Mar 2, 15 12:02

Post #19 of 37 (8417 views)

scandinavianguy wrote:

who wins in a "my medals against your citations" contest?

Olbrecht wins the medal count...best I can muster is this:

"2002- Scientific/technical consultant for a select number of elite cyclists, triathletes, and/or their coaches. Collectively, these athletes have won approximately fifty US National Championships, eight Pan American Championships, eight World Championships, and four Olympic medals, and have set two World Records."

I like to at least think that I do better at my day job instead of my hobby:

https://wustl.academia.edu/...ggan/CurriculumVitae

Re: Physiology: Time to train/detrain energy systems (AeT/AnT) & optimum lactate curve for ironman [Trev] [ In reply to ]

Mar 2, 15 13:25

Post #20 of 37 (8361 views)

Seriously, you are totally over the top rude. It is totally fine to argue the findings of different studies, but you are offering no evidence based arguments and are just personally attacking a guy who I am sure has 1000x more experience in this than you. Go back to reddit.

-------------
Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook

Re: Physiology: Time to train/detrain energy systems (AeT/AnT) & optimum lactate curve for ironman [scandinavianguy] [ In reply to ]

Mar 2, 15 14:00

Post #21 of 37 (8331 views)

Quote:

it could be that he gets to work with exceptionally gifted genetic outliers.

True, for the world championship athletes. But they seek him out, not obviously all elite athletes. And some of the elite athletes have left. Olbrecht is in the process of working with many in Australian swimming so there will be more. Will have to see how this goes.

A few years ago he had about a thousand athletes he worked with, mostly age group swimmers but several triathletes and rowers as well as runners and motocross riders. Few pure cyclists but a couple of the teams have approached him. I do not know where that stands. He was trying to reduce his time with the age group swimmers.

He is not in academia and has a day job so all his work with athletes is in addition to his job. So there is little room for publishing though he has data from thousands of athletes some over periods as long as 10 years

Van Lierde approached him when he was an age group swimmer.

I present his ideas as an alternative to the ideas that are prevalent here. They explain a lot and are based on published models of exercise metabolism.

I have also linked to Shannon Grady's website. She is slowly developing a lot of successful athletes.

So take it for what it is worth.

---------

Jerry Cosgrove

Sports Resource Group
http://www.lactate.com
https://twitter.com/@LactatedotCom

Re: Physiology: Time to train/detrain energy systems (AeT/AnT) & optimum lactate curve for ironman [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]

Mar 2, 15 18:24

Post #22 of 37 (8246 views)

Andrew Coggan wrote:

scandinavianguy wrote:

who wins in a "my medals against your citations" contest?

Olbrecht wins the medal count...best I can muster is this:

"2002- Scientific/technical consultant for a select number of elite cyclists, triathletes, and/or their coaches. Collectively, these athletes have won approximately fifty US National Championships, eight Pan American Championships, eight World Championships, and four Olympic medals, and have set two World Records."

I like to at least think that I do better at my day job instead of my hobby:

https://wustl.academia.edu/...ggan/CurriculumVitae

Strewth - where do you find the time to train!! (CV stuff)

Re: Physiology: Time to train/detrain energy systems (AeT/AnT) & optimum lactate curve for ironman [gunsbuns] [ In reply to ]

Mar 3, 15 3:28

Post #23 of 37 (8114 views)

gunsbuns wrote:

Andrew Coggan wrote:

scandinavianguy wrote:

who wins in a "my medals against your citations" contest?

Olbrecht wins the medal count...best I can muster is this:

"2002- Scientific/technical consultant for a select number of elite cyclists, triathletes, and/or their coaches. Collectively, these athletes have won approximately fifty US National Championships, eight Pan American Championships, eight World Championships, and four Olympic medals, and have set two World Records."

I like to at least think that I do better at my day job instead of my hobby:

https://wustl.academia.edu/...ggan/CurriculumVitae

Strewth - where do you find the time to train!! (CV stuff)

These days? 5:45 to 6:45 a.m. (while my wife and two kids sleep).

Re: Physiology: Time to train/detrain energy systems (AeT/AnT) & optimum lactate curve for ironman [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]

Mar 3, 15 6:35

Post #24 of 37 (8048 views)

Andrew Coggan wrote:

Jerryc wrote:

According to Olbrecht, changes to the anaerobic capacity happen faster than changes to the aerobic capacity

Olbrecht is wrong.

Andy

Would you mind elaborating a bit? Are you saying that the rate of improvement is similar but there are greater gains to be made (in terms of improving race performance) for aerobic, therefore people spend more time there? In other words, you spend more time working in zone 2 rather than zone 4 not because the rate of improvement is different, but because the total magnitude of improvement avaiable is higher in zone 2? And also because zone 4 training hurts (a lot) and has a high recovery cost? Thanks in advance.

Simplify, Train, Live

Re: Physiology: Time to train/detrain energy systems (AeT/AnT) & optimum lactate curve for ironman [Mike Prevost] [ In reply to ]

Mar 3, 15 6:44

Post #25 of 37 (8036 views)

Mike Prevost wrote:

Would you mind elaborating a bit? Are you saying that the rate of improvement is similar but there are greater gains to be made (in terms of improving race performance) for aerobic, therefore people spend more time there? In other words, you spend more time working in zone 2 rather than zone 4 not because the rate of improvement is different, but because the total magnitude of improvement avaiable is higher in zone 2? And also because zone 4 training hurts (a lot) and has a high recovery cost? Thanks in advance.

That's pretty much it. Specifically, if you look at the literature on the time-constant for improvements in neuromuscular power, anaerobic power, or aerobic power, you find that it is essentially the same in all cases, i.e., 7-10 d or thereabouts. What differs, then, is the overall magnitude or scope of possible improvement, as well as the physiological strain associated with overloading the different components/abilities.

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