Penalty for accidentally dropping swim cap at Age Group Nationals

Aug 12, 14 11:28

Post #1 of 184 (14309 views)

I am wondering if anyone has experience with the crazy penalty that affected a number of athletes at this past weekends age group nationals in Milwaukee. I had a very good race and finished 3rd in the 50-54 age group. I dropped from 3rd to 8th in the 50-54 age group after being assessed a 2 minute penalty for dropping my swim cap accidentally on the way from the swim exit to transition. I looked through last year's penalties and there were no such penalties assessed at last year's nationals. I saw the list of penalties at the had referee's tent and there were about 30-40 penalties for dropping your swim cap, by far the single largest category. It seems to me to be pretty crazy. How many races do people inadvertently drop their swim cap. I have spoken with a USAT board member, a former world champion, and my coach (a former ITU pro.) None of them have ever heard of this. I understand abandoning equipment, but I have never had anyone say dropping your swim cap is a penalty. It happens by accident all the time.
If the ref sees an athlete throw their swim cap down on purpose, that seems potentially different. However, a complete accident and for them to not see the incident, I can't believe they gave out penalties. How can you give me a penalty when there were probably 30-50 more swim caps that were dropped that did not have #'s on them? What about all the goggles that were dropped?
I am interested in other people's past experience here.

Last edited by: pgompers: Aug 12, 14 12:24

Re: Penalty for accidentally dropping swim cap at Age Group Nationals [pgompers] [ In reply to ]

Aug 12, 14 11:31

Post #2 of 184 (14292 views)

h. Abandoned Equipment. No participant shall leave any equipment or personal gear on the race course. Any violation of this Section shall result in a variable time penalty.

The rule couldn't be more clear.

Last edited by: USCoregonian: Aug 12, 14 11:45

Re: Penalty for accidentally dropping swim cap at Age Group Nationals [pgompers] [ In reply to ]

Aug 12, 14 11:35

Post #3 of 184 (14256 views)

I heard Karen Smyers warning of a penalty for this during announcements prior to the sprint race. I also heard fellow competitors in transition discussing this possible penalty.

Last edited by: Mark Lemmon: Aug 12, 14 11:38

Re: Penalty for accidentally dropping swim cap at Age Group Nationals [Mark Lemmon] [ In reply to ]

Aug 12, 14 11:39

Post #4 of 184 (14213 views)

Seems to me that this particular penalty would not require much in the way of manpower. Simply collect any swim caps left outside the transition area.

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Re: Penalty for accidentally dropping swim cap at Age Group Nationals [pgompers] [ In reply to ]

Aug 12, 14 11:40

Post #5 of 184 (14203 views)

Why would you think it has to be intentional? That would give everyone an out. "I didn't mean it." I can honestly say in 10 years I have never accidentally dropped my swim cap and left it there (as evidenced by a huge bag of unused caps at home). And if I did, it would be abandonment, no questions asked. The rule does not require intent.

As for whether it was assessed last year, so? Maybe there was a problem last year and they decided to enforce it. At the meeting the head ref said this is nationals, enforcement will be strict.

As for whether people who didn't put the stickers or identifying info on their caps (I did), guess they're just lucky, but there's no way to enforce that unless seen. Are you saying because other people didn't get a penalty (because they couldn't) you shouldn't, even though you violated the rule? I saw a few people drafting and not get a card. Should those that got dinged for drafting not get a penalty because not everyone that drafted got one?

Last edited by: ChrisM: Aug 12, 14 11:41

Re: Penalty for accidentally dropping swim cap at Age Group Nationals [pgompers] [ In reply to ]

Aug 12, 14 11:40

Post #6 of 184 (14202 views)

I got hit by a penalty like this a few year's ago. Cap was coming off at the end of the swim so i stuffed it into my top. Got a 2 minute penalty for abandoned equipment. Even though i still had the cap the head ref said they didn't see you come out of the water with it and that's why you got a penalty. I still have that cap in my posession

Re: Penalty for accidentally dropping swim cap at Age Group Nationals [jmoskovitz13] [ In reply to ]

Aug 12, 14 11:44

Post #7 of 184 (14173 views)

jmoskovitz13 wrote:

I got hit by a penalty like this a few year's ago. Cap was coming off at the end of the swim so i stuffed it into my top. Got a 2 minute penalty for abandoned equipment. Even though i still had the cap the head ref said they didn't see you come out of the water with it and that's why you got a penalty. I still have that cap in my posession

Now this seems ridiculous. The OPs case, not so much. Seems pretty straightforward. It sucks but seems like the officials were within their rights to assess a penalty.

Re: Penalty for accidentally dropping swim cap at Age Group Nationals [pgompers] [ In reply to ]

Aug 12, 14 11:44

Post #8 of 184 (14168 views)

If you drop something and leave it behind, then that is abandonment of equipment. But I mainly hear about it on the bike and run course...dropping/launching of water bottles, dropping gel packets, etc.

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Last edited by: runningmanrick: Aug 12, 14 11:45

Re: Penalty for accidentally dropping swim cap at Age Group Nationals [pgompers] [ In reply to ]

Aug 12, 14 11:46

Post #9 of 184 (14147 views)

It's absurd IMO. Has no effect on the race and doesn't litter "the course". In fact the item is left in transition where it belongs, just a bit too far from the individual's spot.

Congrats on a nice race though

Coach at KonaCoach Multisport

Last edited by: Terra-Man: Aug 12, 14 11:47

Re: Penalty for accidentally dropping swim cap at Age Group Nationals [jmoskovitz13] [ In reply to ]

Aug 12, 14 11:47

Post #10 of 184 (14139 views)

Well that seems fair to me. Accidentally dropping a water bottle, swimcap, gel wrapper,gloves all seem to me like equal violations and should be treated the same.

Re: Penalty for accidentally dropping swim cap at Age Group Nationals [runningmanrick] [ In reply to ]

Aug 12, 14 11:50

Post #11 of 184 (14109 views)

runningmanrick wrote:

If you drop something and leave it behind, then that is abandonment of equipment. But I mainly hear about it on the bike and run course...dropping/launching of water bottles, dropping gel packets, etc.

I was going to say a launched water bottle was a stupid penalty (and still think it is), but then someone else could say that their trash accidentally launched from the bento box or pocket...it's all abandoned equipment.

Now, the fellow who got a penalty for not having his cap on, i'd fight that as much as possible.

Re: Penalty for accidentally dropping swim cap at Age Group Nationals [Terra-Man] [ In reply to ]

Aug 12, 14 11:51

Post #12 of 184 (14094 views)

Terra-Man wrote:

It's absurd IMO. Has no effect on the race and doesn't litter "the course". In fact the item is left in transition where it belongs, just a bit too far from the individual's spot.

Congrats on a nice race though

So, not where it belongs then....

I don't think I have ever dropped a cap, intentionally or accidentally. They aren't that hard to hold on to.

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Re: Penalty for accidentally dropping swim cap at Age Group Nationals [Terra-Man] [ In reply to ]

Aug 12, 14 11:58

Post #13 of 184 (14052 views)

Terra-Man wrote:

It's absurd IMO. Has no effect on the race and doesn't litter "the course". In fact the item is left in transition where it belongs, just a bit too far from the individual's spot.

Congrats on a nice race though

The swim exit run to T1 was very long, several hundred yards long, there were a few swim caps there, I am going to bet this is where he dropped it. Not even close to where transition is. But more to the point, are you saying I can throw my gel packet on the ground in transition running to the bike exit because it's "in transition"? How far does the "transition" bubble extend past my transition spot?

Re: Penalty for accidentally dropping swim cap at Age Group Nationals [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]

Aug 12, 14 12:00

Post #14 of 184 (14019 views)

The reason for the rule is obvious, so courses don't get littered and athletes don't have hazards and obstructions. I can't speculate on why so many dropped their caps. There is no real time advantage to doing so.

A few years ago, USAT removed time penalties for crossing the mount and dismount lines. And you can actually gain an advantage by doing these, and it is a safety hazard. But I don't see people violating this rule as a result of removing the time penalty.

So why enforce a nit picky rule at a national event to the degree it was?. I want the see the fastest succeed, not the most careful with their swim caps in transition

Coach at KonaCoach Multisport

Re: Penalty for accidentally dropping swim cap at Age Group Nationals [Terra-Man] [ In reply to ]

Aug 12, 14 12:03

Post #15 of 184 (14001 views)

Terra-Man wrote:

The reason for the rule is obvious, so courses don't get littered and athletes don't have hazards and obstructions. I can't speculate on why so many dropped their caps. There is no real time advantage to doing so.

A few years ago, USAT removed time penalties for crossing the mount and dismount lines. And you can actually gain an advantage by doing these, and it is a safety hazard. But I don't see people violating this rule as a result of removing the time penalty.

So why enforce a nit picky rule at a national event to the degree it was?. I want the see the fastest succeed, not the most careful with their swim caps in transition

You are starting down a slippery slope.

Re: Penalty for accidentally dropping swim cap at Age Group Nationals [ChrisM] [ In reply to ]

Aug 12, 14 12:04

Post #16 of 184 (13991 views)

How far does the "transition" bubble extend past my transition spot?

Good question. I'd be interested in knowing as well

Coach at KonaCoach Multisport

Re: Penalty for accidentally dropping swim cap at Age Group Nationals [Terra-Man] [ In reply to ]

Aug 12, 14 12:11

Post #17 of 184 (13942 views)

I think given the nature of the rule in the USAT handbook, the referee's were within their rights to give a penalty. I was just curious about others experience with it given that in most races you couldn't assess a penalty given that caps don't have numbers on them and have never heard of someone getting this type of penalty. At the end of the day, it's the referees who enforce the rules and they only get complaints. I totally accept the penalty at the end of the day because it's there call.

In terms of how you accidentally drop a cap, I wear two caps (putting my goggles under the outside race cap). I took off both caps and goggles as I ran to transition. I still had the "underneath" cap in my hand with my googles. The race cap with my number must have dropped when I took them off. I had no idea (until speaking with the referee), that I had dropped my cap.

Re: Penalty for accidentally dropping swim cap at Age Group Nationals [Terra-Man] [ In reply to ]

Aug 12, 14 12:15

Post #18 of 184 (13910 views)

So if we are going to go with the "well, it was in transition" excuse. Then I guess you would've been dinged for 7.2:

Placement of Equipment. All participants shall place equipment only in the properly designated and individually assigned bicycle corral and shall at all time keep their equipment confined to such properly designated areas. Any violation of this Section shall result in a variable time penalty.

The designated area for each athlete is the area immediately to the right or left of their down wheel and not extending past the down wheel into the path of travel.

Next time just don't put your race number on your swim cap. ;)

I'm also not a huge fan of the mount/dismount line foul rules. Especially when on Saturday I saw eight individuals actually ride their bike up the wooden ramp onto the side walk along with at least another hundred or so that, to my knowledge, don't understand what that red line on the ground means.

Re: Penalty for accidentally dropping swim cap at Age Group Nationals [pgompers] [ In reply to ]

Aug 12, 14 12:17

Post #19 of 184 (13890 views)

I got the same penalty on Sunday during the Sprint Race. Not sure what happened as I typically leave it in my sleeve. Lost both my goggles and my swim cap. Must have worked loose during the long run to transition. But, I left equipment on the course so the penalty was appropriate. I would have been devastated had it cost me a chance at Worlds but my crappy swim was to blame for that!

Re: Penalty for accidentally dropping swim cap at Age Group Nationals [GingerAvenger] [ In reply to ]

Aug 12, 14 12:17

Post #20 of 184 (13887 views)

I was watching the carnage.... I mean mount line of M 35-39, first 50 or so. I noticed 3 or 4 mounted well before the line, and wondered what the penalty was. I didn't know there was no penalty at all. Why even have the rule then?

Re: Penalty for accidentally dropping swim cap at Age Group Nationals [pgompers] [ In reply to ]

Aug 12, 14 12:19

Post #21 of 184 (13873 views)

I think it is a nit picky penalty but you should start not taking your cap and goggles off until after you get your wetsuit off in transition. When I get out of the water I just pull up my goggles this way I have both hands to start getting my wetsuit off and I don't have to worry about dropping anything.

Re: Penalty for accidentally dropping swim cap at Age Group Nationals [pgompers] [ In reply to ]

Aug 12, 14 12:22

Post #22 of 184 (13850 views)

I don't think I have ever accidentally dropped my swim cap. I can see having one ripped off in a swim scrum but only rarely. I think I remove my cap and goggles in one motion on the way to T1. While caps are basically disposable, goggles are not.

Re: Penalty for accidentally dropping swim cap at Age Group Nationals [GingerAvenger] [ In reply to ]

Aug 12, 14 12:23

Post #23 of 184 (13841 views)

I have dropped my swim cap in transition any number of times. I have run back and picked it up every time...feeling like a dumbass for dropping it and then again for going back for it.

The penalty is fair. However for whatever reason in this one race this was the number one penalty given.

Maybe some athletes exited the swim and saw a pile of caps and thought, "Oh cool we're supposed to drop our caps here." haha i have no idea...it's just a bit strange

Next time just don't put your race number on your swim cap. ;)

No next time put someone else's number on your cap ;)

Coach at KonaCoach Multisport

Re: Penalty for accidentally dropping swim cap at Age Group Nationals [pgompers] [ In reply to ]

Aug 12, 14 12:28

Post #24 of 184 (13803 views)

What a stupid sport. People spend so much time to get 2 minutes...in the pool, on their bike, out there running. And they give a dumb 2 minute penalty - not for drafting, or cutting the swim course, but inadventently dropping your swim cap.

Re: Penalty for accidentally dropping swim cap at Age Group Nationals [coach_finstock] [ In reply to ]

Aug 12, 14 12:30

Post #25 of 184 (13785 views)

coach_finstock wrote:

What a stupid sport. People spend so much time to get 2 minutes...in the pool, on their bike, out there running. And they give a dumb 2 minute penalty - not for drafting, or cutting the swim course, but inadventently dropping your swim cap.

How hard is it to follow the rules? Apparently for triathletes it's pretty hard, since we have huge cheating problems.

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