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Pacific Sports Refund
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Please avoid Pacific Sports at ALL costs. I had registered for their inaugural Brooklyn Triathlon in 2013 only to see them "postpone" it a few weeks before the race. I trusted that my registration would be good for their 2014 version. However they CANCELLED the race DAYS before. I have spent the past six months trying to get my refund. They are not even honest enough to say that I won't be getting it, instead have all of the "dog ate my homework" excuses. I now see I will never retrieve my refund -which was promised. I see they do several races per year. Be aware!!
Last edited by: Slowman: Jun 21, 15 16:21
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Re: Pacific Sports UNETHICAL [orca72] [ In reply to ]
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well at least this isn't your first post.

Find out what it is in life that you don't do well, then don't
do that thing.
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Re: Pacific Sports UNETHICAL [orca72] [ In reply to ]
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What was the reason for the 2nd race cancellation? Weather, road closures, something else?
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Re: Pacific Sports UNETHICAL [orca72] [ In reply to ]
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Well quit sittin there and do something about it. Your American, I shouldn't even need to tell you this... Sue em!

But seriously, write them and threaten a small claims action. Small claims is a thing of beauty and should be pursued whenever its an option.
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Re: Pacific Sports UNETHICAL [orca72] [ In reply to ]
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I'd guess they're probably more broke than unethical. They wouldn't be the first race company to fold this way.
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Re: Pacific Sports UNETHICAL [monty] [ In reply to ]
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the reason for the 2nd cancellation is that the city gave the race a bill for upcoming services a week before the race that was enormous and unaffordable. this, after the race organization tried for many months to fix the costs in advance. so, really, it seems as if the city was the bad partner, and i hear that this is by no means the first organizer to have this occur.

that established, i think it's fair to question whether a race should go to the point of opening registration, etc., with a city that won't give a fixed cost for services. me, i can't imagine doing it. still, apparently there were things that just happen, such as having to start the process over once a new administration arrives (de blasio).

hard luck all the way around. i wouldn't call it unethical. everybody lost money. i might call it bad planning. and i do think it's fair to ask whether it's appropriate to open registration without having more settled.

i certainly would call it not reading the forum rules before posting.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Last edited by: Slowman: Mar 11, 15 20:20
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Re: Pacific Sports UNETHICAL [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Then the RD should sell his or her home to cover the losses.

Seriously though ... this event has never actually happened. Did Pacific Sports offer a good or service that never really existed? If that's the case then it's a criminal fraud.

Almost like a guy who sells granny a home renovation and fucks off with the cash.

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Last edited by: realAlbertan: Mar 11, 15 21:41
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Re: Pacific Sports UNETHICAL [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I understand the "trial by internet" rule, but in my case last year I had a team of athletes not get refunded for a certain race. Within two days of me posting in another thread about it they were refunded.

The race was in July and they were re-funded in november. "Trial by internet" is usually associated with grey area things like not getting what you wanted out of a warrantee or poor (perceived) service from an LBS. IE perception of service (or product) vs service delivered.

I understand the rules etc, and I think the OP could have used better language…but I don't think he's out of line for wanting his money back after…now…a second cancelation. RD and refunds are a bit more black and white to me, the service wasn't provided.

My 2c

Maurice
Last edited by: mauricemaher: Mar 11, 15 22:57
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Re: Pacific Sports UNETHICAL [mauricemaher] [ In reply to ]
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bear in mind, unless i misunderstand it, this wasn't 2 races, 2 entries, both cancellations. this is 2 tries to get 1 race off, 1 entry fee paid, RD is attempting to produce a race i had been hearing about for about 3 years, after a lot of trying, and NYC just proved to be an impossible place to produce a race notwithstanding the desire of the business elements in that town to help produce it.

again, me, i just fundamentally am averse to trying to produce a race that is the great white whale: the race in a city that just refuses to get itself produced. i remember a triathlon WC in orlando in, i think, 1991, it was 90 or 91, and that race got a bill from disney that was unpayable. in this case the bill was just not payable. it would have bankrupted the RD. had that bill come the week before the race, there would have been no WC that year. the only difference between these 2 races is that in 1 case the bill came the week before, in the other case the week after. and i don't think that bill did ever get paid. eventually disney had to write down and eat most of that bill, if memory serves.

that RD of that orlando race? the fellow who, for some decades now, has produced the boston marathon. one of the most respected RDs in the business.

i'm not defending, or arbitrating, i'm just providing some context and also some clarity about how many entry fees got paid. the reason for the ban in trial by internet is that i'm not running a service by which people an come on here and take punishment on others; and because the story is always just 1 side; it never pays for the other side to defend itself in cases like this. i think the tone and phrasing of the title and the text speaks for itself.

but i do feel for the position all these registrants were placed in. a lot of them paid for a race, not for the attempt to produce a race. we've had these threads before and we have them every time a race is canceled for just about any reason. was this a just reason to keep the entry? reasonable question. i just wish the OP, who clearly knew about this community, had thought enough of the community here to engage it prior to now.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Pacific Sports UNETHICAL [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
the reason for the 2nd cancellation is that the city gave the race a bill for upcoming services a week before the race that was enormous and unaffordable. this, after the race organization tried for many months to fix the costs in advance. so, really, it seems as if the city was the bad partner, and i hear that this is by no means the first organizer to have this occur.

that established, i think it's fair to question whether a race should go to the point of opening registration, etc., with a city that won't give a fixed cost for services. me, i can't imagine doing it. still, apparently there were things that just happen, such as having to start the process over once a new administration arrives (de blasio).

hard luck all the way around. i wouldn't call it unethical. everybody lost money. i might call it bad planning. and i do think it's fair to ask whether it's appropriate to open registration without having more settled.

i certainly would call it not reading the forum rules before posting.

I have no dog in this particular fight but I wouldn't call this exactly factual. Entry fees went somewhere. If RD on to vendor then the vendor made money. If RD kept then the RD made money. 100% sure all paid athletes lost money. If RD's do not want to be transparent when he/she cancels a race then they should expect that transparency to come out in court. Went towards race production I accept that as some things (very small percentage if done correctly on the finance side) are unavoidable. If no accountability can be produced of the entry fees then we run into a possible criminal issue and it's these RD's that need to be found and the community know IMO.

I think you are on the correct path with "when is it appropriate for RD's to open registration". If athletes knew that certain milestones were accomplished in the process they would be more apt to accept the risk when they pay an entry fee. I would be. Right now 100% of the pre-production risk is on the customer (athlete) in most cases. How many would sign up knowing permits have not been secured, funds only available for 2 aid stations on a half distance race at this time, no equipment has been purchased to date, insurance not issued, etc? Some of this risk should fall onto the venture seeker...the RD.

Yes, I would say poor planning definitely came into play on this one but without the facts I can not say this with 100% certainty. There are mechanisms in place to seek the facts if you feel you the need to seek them out.

Formerly TriBrad02
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Re: Pacific Sports UNETHICAL [TriBrad02] [ In reply to ]
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So this is a double edged sword. We all plan our races 6-12 months in advance for fear of not getting into races at the lowest price or having our A race sync up with B or C races. At the time we transact a year in advance so much has not been able to happen at the planning stages for RDs.

I will give you some examples. We run an Ekiden style relay race. We have held this race in the same park for 15+ years. We launch registration after race ends for next year to offer lower fees. We assume that we will hold in same place, but can not control venue, city permits, construction or other festivals happening in 12 months. Fast forward 6 months we file our permit (keeping in mind the City does not allow you to file permits until you are X days out from the event) and we discover 3 other events are happening on the same day in the same area and City has granted permits. So we have collected funds in good faith and promised an event in a well know location, but can not fulfill. Unlike the RD in Brooklyn, we were able to move the location and secure all permits and such.

Unless the RD has deep pockets and can absorb the risk, we will always have a share in the risk for smaller, new races. I can assure you they are not making millions of dollars. If you want to avoid risk, then you must support bigger, established races that can weather the ups and downs and have bigger voices in getting races approved based on economic impact.

Until you actually work as an RD or for a company that produces races, you have no idea about what goes on behind the scenes. For example, it took me 5 months to get $29,000 back from the city's watershed department for using hydrants at water stations. A new head of the department decided that they would cash the deposit checks vs. hold and send back as a new policy.

Sadly, the OP will not see any refund. Those $are long gone....
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Re: Pacific Sports UNETHICAL [chrisinma] [ In reply to ]
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chrisinma wrote:
So this is a double edged sword. We all plan our races 6-12 months in advance for fear of not getting into races at the lowest price or having our A race sync up with B or C races. At the time we transact a year in advance so much has not been able to happen at the planning stages for RDs.

I will give you some examples. We run an Ekiden style relay race. We have held this race in the same park for 15+ years. We launch registration after race ends for next year to offer lower fees. We assume that we will hold in same place, but can not control venue, city permits, construction or other festivals happening in 12 months. Fast forward 6 months we file our permit (keeping in mind the City does not allow you to file permits until you are X days out from the event) and we discover 3 other events are happening on the same day in the same area and City has granted permits. So we have collected funds in good faith and promised an event in a well know location, but can not fulfill. Unlike the RD in Brooklyn, we were able to move the location and secure all permits and such.

Unless the RD has deep pockets and can absorb the risk, we will always have a share in the risk for smaller, new races. I can assure you they are not making millions of dollars. If you want to avoid risk, then you must support bigger, established races that can weather the ups and downs and have bigger voices in getting races approved based on economic impact.

Until you actually work as an RD or for a company that produces races, you have no idea about what goes on behind the scenes. For example, it took me 5 months to get $29,000 back from the city's watershed department for using hydrants at water stations. A new head of the department decided that they would cash the deposit checks vs. hold and send back as a new policy.

Sadly, the OP will not see any refund. Those $are long gone....

So you feel RD's should have zero accountability/transparency for cancelled races? You feel RD's should not have to "absorb" risk at all?

I just shake my head at your 29k check fiasco. Sounds like the spit and a handshake didn't go very well. As for holding a race in the same park for 15+ years and all of a sudden you couldn't secure the permit the 16th year...sounds political. Something I would hope an RD knows how to navigate after 15+ years.

As for what goes on behind the scenes, I am sure each company/RD does it differently. All the more reason for transparency since no one knows where the money went. If the OP is not getting his questions answered to his satisfaction, once again there are mechanisms in place to to seek a remedy to that.

Formerly TriBrad02
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Re: Pacific Sports UNETHICAL [TriBrad02] [ In reply to ]
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Way to put words in my mouth. Your response is laughable and reading comprehension pathetic. You have zero clue how it all works and don't know shit about business either or dealing with governments. Must be political - no shit Einstein. Way to state the obvious. Every one shares the risk. But if things go south then you may never get a penny back and have zero recourse. I just find it fascinating how little people know but spout off what RDs should do. It is not based on ethics but financial reality.
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Re: Pacific Sports UNETHICAL [orca72] [ In reply to ]
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Big shock. The owner does not have a good reputation in the industry and has been sued so many times. He's also fond of suing anyone he can.

He runs a pretty sketchy operation. Look at his about us page, it's a long thing about him and then just the names of the other people. HIs staff turnover is brutal. No one works for him very long.

So yea, no news here, in other news water is wet and pacific sports is making the industry look bad...again.

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Re: Pacific Sports UNETHICAL [TriBrad02] [ In reply to ]
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So you feel RD's should have zero accountability/transparency for cancelled races? You feel RD's should not have to "absorb" risk at all?

Putting on any endurance sports event, and triathlons in particular, is a risky proposition all around. Participants have no idea of what goes on behind the scenes to get things done so that it's safe, fast, and fun for you on race day. From time to time things go wrong, just like any business. Given all the balls in the air, all the variables, and the uncertainty of it all it's a wonder that more things don't go wrong. It's an incredibly complex and risky undertaking with minimal financial reward, despite what it may look like from the outside.


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Pacific Sports UNETHICAL [TriBrad02] [ In reply to ]
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So you feel RD's should have zero accountability/transparency for cancelled races? You feel RD's should not have to "absorb" risk at all? //

You just are not getting what many here are trying to tell you, perhaps the couple hundred dollars you lost put you in the poor house and are damaged for life because of it. I asked you why the 2nd race was cancelled days before for a reason. When a race gets that close to production, virtually all costs associated with it have been spent. In this situation of course there is the discrepancy amount that was not spent(although a holding fee cold have been paid early), and a couple other costs that arrive on race day and are paid later. Other than that, there is profit if any(sounds doubtful or not much in this case).


They had a false start on the first race which also had many fixed costs paid, but they gave you a full entry into the 2nd one, is that right? So they took all those first costs on the chin in order to keep your business for what they hoped would be a long history of a new race. Now the 2nd race is cancelled right before, so i have no doubt that they lost a lot more than your couple hundred bucks, and that loss would be concentrated with just a few people who were on the hook.


You can argue that they should never have tried to put on a race in such a hard area, but there are a lot of triathletes in the area, and many that would love to travel to such a race, it was a gamble. You can also argue that perhaps they should have had all their ducks in a row so to speak, but often this is not how it happens in race production. I know, i have put on over 60 races myself, and sometimes shit just happens. There are no guarantees in sport, or life for that matter. This is just one of those things that goes wrong, and you should be happy that you are not on the real end of loss on this deal. You coming on here and violating the rules of the forum, calling out a very prolific race originization that has produced a lot of fun for an awful lot of people for about 30 years, and basically crying like a little bitch, well we have another thread for that..
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Re: Pacific Sports UNETHICAL [chrisinma] [ In reply to ]
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This is one reason why I sign up for 99% of my races on race day. Makes no sense for races that do not fill up to "save" a few bugs vs risking losing all of it
if for some reason I do not do the race. So why do folks sign up early for races that do not fill up? Makes no sense to me after being burned so many times
for various reasons.

.

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Re: Pacific Sports UNETHICAL [monty] [ In reply to ]
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Just wait and sign up race day like I do most of the time. So easy to avoid this issue.

.

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: Pacific Sports UNETHICAL [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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And then you get the people who complain about the price of race day and don't get why they should pay more.....but that is another topic.
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Re: Pacific Sports UNETHICAL [monty] [ In reply to ]
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Monty (and Fleck)- thank you for your clarity and sound understanding of the industry. I have yet to meet many wealthy race promoters in my short tenure as the finance side of a game. Most do this for a love of the sport and most never see the big payday unless they get big sponsor $ or reach the critical race mass to generate a real profit.
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Re: Pacific Sports UNETHICAL [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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Just wait and sign up race day like I do most of the time. So easy to avoid this issue. //

I'm stalking you Dave. (-; I had two races in my career that were cancelled while waiting in the water for the gun to go off, so not as easy a you might think to avoid. But I agree that these days i prefer to do races at very late notice, too many things can go wrong at our ages. But putting myself in the shoes of younger athletes that want to do WTC races, they do not have that luxury. It is either sign up a year early, or miss the event. They do what they have to do in order to get the experiences that we already had in our lucky and long careers. I won't begrudge them these extra hoops they have to jump through just because we did not have to. Just feel lucky..
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Re: Pacific Sports UNETHICAL [chrisinma] [ In reply to ]
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chrisinma wrote:
Way to put words in my mouth. Your response is laughable and reading comprehension pathetic. You have zero clue how it all works and don't know shit about business either or dealing with governments. Must be political - no shit Einstein. Way to state the obvious. Every one shares the risk. But if things go south then you may never get a penny back and have zero recourse. I just find it fascinating how little people know but spout off what RDs should do. It is not based on ethics but financial reality.

Started my own business 10 years ago. Single employee to over 1800 employees/contractors in multiple countries in that span. Last contract was worth over 200 million USD. Sold and retired at 39. I have sponsored professional athletes for 5 years. I have financed sporting events from 2007 to present. Hell, I even 100% financed a movie in Hollywood in 2007. I have NEVER put my signature on a check and said please don't cash it. I know nothing about business. Too funny. I have applied for more permits in more countries than you've been to and I say that with 100% confidence I am correct. Keep writing checks and praying they won't be cashed. Great business practice. No wonder small races are having a hard time being successful, among many other factors I am learning of.

Only thing in your model I like is you take people's money and try to bring it all together but if it doesn't you say too bad to the clients. I tried. Then when clients have questions for non-service some RDs give them some run around.

I'm all for shared risk on acceptable levels. I decide my risk level as do RDs. What I am not for is zero transparency when clients ask 'why did my race get canceled?' and the RD, if he/she even replies, gives the athlete the run-around. I'd have more respect for an RD who tells me he messed up somehow than give me the run around. I would even give this RD another shot because he/she has enough integrity to say they could have handled it better.

I wonder why some RDs do not like to be questioned on what they are doing with client money? Instead of bitching why not educate the clients who are the races lifeline? Interesting concept.

Formerly TriBrad02
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Re: Pacific Sports UNETHICAL [TriBrad02] [ In reply to ]
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I wonder why some RDs do not like to be questioned on what they are doing with client money? Instead of bitching why not educate the clients who are the races lifeline? Interesting concept.//

Maybe because just about everyone, and absolutely someone with your business acumen, would know where most the money goes to putting on a race. But since you want to be educated, even though you are one of the worlds most savvy businessmen, here you go.


T-shirts, you know that thing you get at every race you ever did.
Medals and awards, you know those things you hope for, and sometimes get just for finishing.
Insurance
Cones, barracades, course markings, clocks, transition racks, snow fencing, and all transition related paraphernalia.
Websites, web production, entry forms, people to manage all these things
Police, fire, paramedics, lifeguards, course marshals, and all the things they charge you for.
Timing company, results, and their distribution
Aid stations, all of their contents, and often contributions to volunteer groups that man them, along with any other place you use a volunteer course
USAT fees, fees for marshalls, motorbikes and riders, communications on course.
Road closures, lake or ocean fees, park fees(most races are within some park or city jurisdiction)
Parking fees, and other 3rd party fees(for instance registration)
Traditional monthly costs of business up keep, phone, internet, computers, employees, and travel. With this race, there had to be a ton of travel related costs, especially after two failed attempts.
Optional would be pro prize purses(not sure if this race planned on one, but of course did not have to pay them out), appearance fees, lodging, and other travel related fees.




This is just a quick list off the top of my head on race costs, some big races like this one tried to be will incur a lot more than your local race of 200 entrants run at the local YMCA. They all seem very obvious to me, but i guess not to everyone, so there you go..
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Re: Pacific Sports UNETHICAL [TriBrad02] [ In reply to ]
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good for you....you are awesome or full of shit....either way, don't really care since you are nothing to me internet macho man.
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Re: Pacific Sports UNETHICAL [TriBrad02] [ In reply to ]
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I have NEVER put my signature on a check and said please don't cash it.

I call BS on this . . . you have had all these succesful business all over the world with million dollar contracts, you've financed a hollywood movie and you say you've never handed over a deposit check or been in an escrow situation?
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